Upgrade Wind Instraments

[Anchor Lady]

Hello All,

I bought a 1980 Oday 30. The wind reader has never worked. The current electronics are via Signet which is 40 years old. If I were to upgrade to a new Raymarine wind reader, would I also need to climb the mast and replace the transmitter with the same brand?

Thanks for looking,

Jim

 

[Meriachee]

Yes. None of that vintage equipment will integrate.

 

[leo310]

You should look at all manufactures Raymarine, Garmin, B&G and others for what you want. In most cases you'll be looking at $1800-$3500 for wind, depth, speed and a MFD. Some will have a package with these components, in the long run its better than trying to mix and match old items.

 

[Tally Ho]

You can get a wireless wind transmitter so you don’t need to run wires down the mast.
I have a Tac Tic Wireless wind vane and instrument at the helm.
I also have a Garmin Chart plotter that serves as a depth sounder, water temp, speed and distance.
I have an old Signet speed wheel, that still works.

i am on Lake Michigan, so I don’t need to worry about currents and such...so I usually just use the CP.



Greg

 

[daviddp]

If you shop around you can get great deals at this time of year. I had the same signet package as you on my oday 34, nothing worked. Although you can still find parts they are ridiculously expensive. The masthead fly was $350 USED! I paid just under 1k for a new B&G Triton package (close out old model) @ this time last year. It included 2 display heads, the anemometer and transducer and a basic wiring install package. The Trion2 can be bought now for under $1,500. I also purchased B&G 7" MFD new for under $800. PM if you need details. As to wireless, that's your call, that can be a blessing or your worst nightmare. You still need to climb to install the masthead. I ran all new wiring and halyards while that mast was down. It took an afternoon and about $500 for everything including new lights.

 

[catalanc]

I have a very old Signet depth transducer and speed wheel system on my new to me Seaward 24. Boat is on the hard and don't know if they work yet. The company is still in business and they are very nice and helpful to talk to. That said, not sure I would go with new Signet stuff if I need to replace the old stuff. Need to do a bit more research.

Signet Marine - Precision Marine Electronics | Official Website of Signet Marine Inc.

Official Website of SIGNETMARINE: Formally Signet Scientific. For more than 40 years, Signet Marine has continued to supply the sailboat industry with quality marine electronics.

www.signetmarine.com

 

[shemandr]

I'll offer an alternative opinion. Save your money. Take down the windvane, remove the wiring and put a Windex up there. It's more sensitive to wind changes. For years I wanted wind instruments and then when I got them I realized they were over rated. For one thing the True Wind function depends on the accuracy of the speedometer - a very dubious proposition. If you're paddle wheel is at all fouled you don't have accurate boat speed reading. Even if it's squeaky clean you need to calibrate it using several methods which are in themselves subject to inaccuracy. Want to go faster? Just go into the menus of your speedo and turn up your speed! Your display speed through the water is arbitrary.
Also the wind direction is slightly behind what is happening. So if you go solely by that you will be late reacting to changes in wind speed and direction - if that is important to you. A windex is never late.
What would be an improvement is a video camera at or near the masthead with a display in the cockpit so that you don't have to crane your neck looking at the windex. Tell Tails on the shrouds and sails are cheap and reliable (Although video on the jib's would be nice to have in the cockpit where they are often not visible to the driver.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'll offer an alternative opinion. Save your money. Take down the windvane, remove the wiring and put a Windex up there. It's more sensitive to wind changes. For years I wanted wind instruments and then when I got them I realized they were over rated. For one thing the True Wind function depends on the accuracy of the speedometer - a very dubious proposition. If you're paddle wheel is at all fouled you don't have accurate boat speed reading. Even if it's squeaky clean you need to calibrate it using several methods which are in themselves subject to inaccuracy. Want to go faster? Just go into the menus of your speedo and turn up your speed! Your display speed through the water is arbitrary.
Also the wind direction is slightly behind what is happening. So if you go solely by that you will be late reacting to changes in wind speed and direction - if that is important to you. A windex is never late.
What would be an improvement is a video camera at or near the masthead with a display in the cockpit so that you don't have to crane your neck looking at the windex. Tell Tails on the shrouds and sails are cheap and reliable (Although video on the jib's would be nice to have in the cockpit where they are often not visible to the driver.

Ok, I don't understand a word of this argument! First of all, there is nothing more useless than a wind vane that you never look at because it gives you a pain in the neck! I buy the argument that tell tails give the most immediate response and I agree that you basically don't need any gadgetry to enjoy sailing, or even to get the best performance out of your sailing via more traditional means.

But you don't need to rely on your paddlewheel for speed accuracy. I set mine to SOG from GPS. I think I've heard it said that's not right … true wind speed and direction must be derived from the boat speed thru water based on the paddlewheel. I must be missing something because that just makes no sense to me. True wind and direction is based on your speed on earth as far as I can tell. If your boat speed says you are doing 7 knots but your GPS is telling you that SOG is 6 knots because you are bucking a current. How is telling the instrument that you are going faster than you actually are going more accurate? I need that explained.
And why is the wind direction from the transducer slightly later than the windex? I don't buy it. First of all, you can't prove it by trying to look at both simultaneously. You'll break your neck trying! If there is a difference, it has to be trivial. Maybe I'm jaded … I haven't had a windex on a boat that I've sailed in probably 40 years, and I've never missed it. Not having the wind instrument, OTOH … can't say that I would go very far without one.

 

[MikeHoncho]

There is a radar system that you use a tablet or phone as the interface. What is out there for the other instrumentation?

 

[shemandr]

Here we go. This has been a topic of contention before on these forums. I don't remember how it turned out. I think the input should be Boat Speed thru the water because that is what that is what needs to be corrected for. If the boat weren't moving thru the water at all (At a dock) the TWS and AWS would be the same. And I'd have to admit the SOG would be the same as the Boat Speed. But, if the boat were drifting with no speed thru the water, SOG could be 2 knots. That would produce TWS distorted by the boat's SOG. Since the AWS is measured and the TWS is synthesized from the speed input there would be a difference (Particularly in light wind). That's the current best I can do in explanation.
But my point is and remains that electronic WS and WD aren't all they are cracked up to be. I guess I'm over reacting to the "Virtual" sailing experience we are all supposed to want.

 

[Meriachee]

Wind input to the AP can steer the boat better in the wind, and faster than almost anybody

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Well, don't take my response too seriously. I like to be argumentative. But I am genuinely confused about the difference between boat speed and SOG when it relates to the true wind. If the boat was drifting into a headwind of, say, 5 knots at SOG of 2 knots AWS is measured by the wind transducer at 7 knots and TWS is calculated at 5 knots if the GPS is telling the instrument that SOG is 2 knots. That would be accurate.
If AWS is measured at 7 knots because the boat is drifting into the wind and the paddlewheel is telling the instrument that the boat speed is 0 knots, then TWS is calculated to be 7 knots, so it seems to me that TWS and TWA is distorted by using the boat speed measured by paddlewheel. TWS & TWA is the same whether is over land or sea. So why would it be distorted by SOG? It seems to me that it is only distorted when speed thru water is different than SOG.

 

[shemandr]

Wind input to the AP can steer the boat better in the wind, and faster than almost anybody

Yes, they don't get distracted. I think you are offering a argument to have electronic WS WD instrumentation. I'll concede that. In the vane mode my AP was a pleasure - until it did a Crazy Ivan. I never trusted it to go up on deck without someone supervising it. Motoring was always compass course steering.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Well, don't take my response too seriously. I like to be argumentative. But I am genuinely confused about the difference between boat speed and SOG when it relates to the true wind. If the boat was drifting into a headwind of, say, 5 knots at SOG of 2 knots AWS is measured by the wind transducer at 7 knots and TWS is calculated at 5 knots if the GPS is telling the instrument that SOG is 2 knots. That would be accurate.
If AWS is measured at 7 knots because the boat is drifting into the wind and the paddlewheel is telling the instrument that the boat speed is 0 knots, then TWS is calculated to be 7 knots, so it seems to me that TWS and TWA is distorted by using the boat speed measured by paddlewheel. TWS & TWA is the same whether is over land or sea. So why would it be distorted by SOG? It seems to me that it is only distorted when speed thru water is different than SOG.

Oh boy, for fear of going the way of the Amazon River foiling catamaran thread ...

Speed through the water is the “right” way of measuring TWS when you’re on the boat. It won’t give you the true meteorological speed of the wind, but that’s not what you want when you’re sailing. The reason to see the TWS when you’re sailing is to determine if you’re hitting your polars and properly trimmed. To do that you need to consider the movement of the boat through the water and the air.

As a simple example, let’s say you had a boat that could go DDW at exactly the same as the wind speed (a perfectly efficient theoretical boat). To know if you’re trimmed properly, you’ll want to know if you’re matching the wind speed. If you’re going with a 2 knot current, and the wind is blowing in the same direction at 5 knots over ground, you are going to be able to go through the water at 3 knots (the same as the wind is going over the water). If you look at your TWS instrument, you want it to say 3, not 5. If it said 5 you would think you could go 5 knots through the water, and you’d be erroneously adjusting your sails looking for the extra 2 knots.

 

[shemandr]

Well, don't take my response too seriously. I like to be argumentative. But I am genuinely confused about the difference between boat speed and SOG when it relates to the true wind. If the boat was drifting into a headwind of, say, 5 knots at SOG of 2 knots AWS is measured by the wind transducer at 7 knots and TWS is calculated at 5 knots if the GPS is telling the instrument that SOG is 2 knots. That would be accurate.
If AWS is measured at 7 knots because the boat is drifting into the wind and the paddlewheel is telling the instrument that the boat speed is 0 knots, then TWS is calculated to be 7 knots, so it seems to me that TWS and TWA is distorted by using the boat speed measured by paddlewheel. TWS & TWA is the same whether is over land or sea. So why would it be distorted by SOG? It seems to me that it is only distorted when speed thru water is different than SOG.

It's not argumentative to challenge an opinion. If fact it makes me review my opinion to test it for veracity - so it's good.
The current is baked into the AWS. You have to subtract out the Boat Speed.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Wind input to the AP can steer the boat better in the wind, and faster than almost anybody

I like my electronic wind instrument and autopilot as much as the next guy, but if you think yours can correct for a wind shift faster than an attentive helmsman you have more faith in yours than I do. I’ll use mine for a long leg when I want to relax, but I consider its steering a compromise, not an improvement.

 

[Davidasailor26]

There is a radar system that you use a tablet or phone as the interface. What is out there for the other instrumentation?

If you put the sensors on an NMEA network there are devices that will put the NMEA sentences out over WiFi. Various apps (iRegatta for example) can then show you that information in the smartphone app.

 

[catalanc]

Alternatively, you could pour a glass of wine and stick your hand in the water to estimate your speed ....

 

[TimFromLI]

If the instruments are 40 years old, you will need to replace all the transducers (wind speed and depth), instrument(s) and wiring so they are all NMEA2000. B&G has combination packages that can soften the hit to the wallet.

 

[Serenity on Hudson]

What instruments? I sail the boat, it doesn't sail me. I feel the wind, see the direction with the windex, and use a hand held GPS for SOG. I know the currents in the Hudson River where I sail and mentally correct. The currents vary all over the place depending where you are. Having sailed the same 10-15 miles of the river for more than a decade, and worked in the river on power boats for many years, I can predict how the currents will affect performance pretty well. That said, I once passed Indian Point heading south and my speed went from 6 kts (hull speed) to 8 knots in an instant and kept at that speed for several minutes. The cooling water discharge from the Indian Point Power Plant was the likely reason, though it had never happened before or since. I do not race anyone but myself so sailing by feel works for me. I often sail near the Wed nite races and find my method of sailing better than most of the race in light winds as I pass the racers. At high winds I stay at the bar and watch others fight the wind. Fair weather sailor for sure. I want pleasure not work from sailing.