I am in deep trouble! Mayday!

[Crazy Dave Condon]

JD4;
Thank you for the photos. There is no question that resin was added into the bilge, still I could not see if there was any pulling of the bolts. You never advised what you paid or the exact estimate.
When the boat was built either in CA or FL plants but probably in the CA plant, the washers and nuts would be on top of the bilge floor not below the added resin. You now report no leaks.
Usually this will be your first and not last boat, so keep it and learn to work on it. Many folks will tell you to try and remove the keel yourself. That would be extremely risky with that heavy cast iron keel. As I said before, I owned American Marine &Sail Supply which was known to be a small boat sailboat dealership and the two biggest dealerships were Catalina and Hunter. Personally I have changed many keels over my lifetime and even put on wing keels removing the fin keels or swing keels. It is not an easy job and one not for those who think they know what to do. One slip and the keel could fall over and serius injury or death unless you have the experience tools and jig to hold that keel up in place which I did. On a trailer, that is nuts.
I am speaking from a professional standpoint. I am retired but Frank Butler whenever he was redesigning the smaller boats called to ask my thoughts which I understood I was the only one he called. Again it would be interesting what you spent on the boat and the cost of the entire repair which is debateable .

 

[jimmcgee]

And repairs should be in line with sailing a 30+ year old boat on a river.

What is that supposed to mean? How would the yard people know where the boat might be sailed over the life of the repair? Either it's fixed correctly or it isn't. If the latter, then it's potentially a danger to any owner now or in the future.

It means maintain your perspective. This is a 30+ year old coastal boat most likely to be day sailed in sight of land. It's unlikely it will ever round the Horn or sail the southern ocean. Repairs should be appropriate for its intended use.

It's also normal to find different professionals have different opinions on what is appropriate -- and they may all be "correct" opinions.

Repair your boat for its intended use. You have no control over how some future owner may or may not use her.

In response to some of the inputs: you will also find there are probably fifty ways to do the repair "right" - and yes I am an engineer.

Exaaactly.

 

[jimmcgee]

I appreciate most people's advice and efforts here. I will pick through what is most helpful and move forward. Thank you.

LOL, well said !

I'm going to assume in the photos that's the 1/2 inch of water the bilge pump doesn't suck out and there's some debris floating in it. If so I'd take a minute to shop vac it out. You don't want your bilge pump to clog up if you do get some water in.

Best of luck with her,
Jim

 

[JohnVTX]

It means maintain your perspective. This is a 30+ year old coastal boat most likely to be day sailed in sight of land. It's unlikely it will ever round the Horn or sail the southern ocean. Repairs should be appropriate for its intended use.

It's also normal to find different professionals have different opinions on what is appropriate -- and they may all be "correct" opinions.

Repair your boat for its intended use. You have no control over how some future owner may or may not use her.



Exaaactly.

Repair it to specs period......

 

[Kings Gambit]

It means maintain your perspective. This is a 30+ year old coastal boat most likely to be day sailed in sight of land. It's unlikely it will ever round the Horn or sail the southern ocean. Repairs should be appropriate for its intended use.

It's also normal to find different professionals have different opinions on what is appropriate -- and they may all be "correct" opinions.

Repair your boat for its intended use. You have no control over how some future owner may or may not use her.

Sounds like a game of fizzbin adapted to keel repair.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Fizzbin

Approximate rules
The rules for fizzbin were intended to be complex, so that Kirk could lull his audience into lowering their defenses long enough to be overwhelmed.

• The game can be played with a standard Earth deck of cards, despite the slightly differing deck on Beta Antares IV.
• Each player gets six cards, except for the player on the dealer's right, who gets seven.
• The second card is turned up, except on Tuesdays.
• Two jacks are a "half-fizzbin".
• If you have a half-fizzbin:
  • a third jack is a "shralk" and results in disqualification;
  • one wants a king and a deuce, except at night, when one wants a queen and a four;
  • if a king had been dealt, the player would get another card, except when it is dark, in which case he'd have to give it back.
• The top hand is a "royal fizzbin", but the odds against getting one are said to be "astronomical".

 

[CloudDiver]

I don't see if anyone mentioned it already, but the thing you have to consider with the C-25 is that the plywood in the keel stub core is soft or rotten... that explains the sunken forward keel bolts. It does look like resin was poured which will make getting those nuts off a messy job, but nothing a propane torch can't handle (just to heat up and melt the resin, NOT cut them off).
I do concur with the statements of several others... get her sailing (safely) for the summer season and enjoy it. You'll probably end up with a list of other things that you'll want to do and will be a more accurate list.
At the end of the season, borrow a trailer... If you have enough room on your own property to get her in a side yard, back yard or driveway you are good. If you have to pay for space away from home... forget it. Start looking for used boat stands on Craigslist, I got my set of 4 for $260, they are a great investment and easily resold. Also find a used engine hoist unless you have one already, you should pay less than $100 for a used one.
I won't go into too much detail, but this job is doable. I think you'll find that the keel stub core wood was soft or rotten to begin with and you would have eventually had to do this job anyway. It might be a blessing that you found out early by the 'hard way' and you'll never make that mistake again.

 

[xwiredtva]

I concur with CloudDriver above who mentioned the Plywood Core Keel Stub. This is where the rotted plywood core = Catalina Smile comes from. The fix here used to be to unbolt and install a Stainless 1/4" thick base and put the bolts back on, torqued (obviously if your doing this, drop the keep a bit and rebed the base with some nice 5200).
The pictures don't show keel separation (as far as my eyes can see). The crack between hull and keel is normal to appear with expansion and contraction although in this case it happened in a minute where it usually happens over a year on the hard. You slammed the keel which pushed back and up into the stern area of the keel base and probably damaged the core, or if the core was already soft it allowed damage to occur. NOW this could have severely stressed the hull in this area and cracks may not show as it flexed back into it's place - so put the boat down on the keel with a piece of wood or block under the tail of the keel to simulate the force ALL WHILE you look down into the bilge. If you see cracks open up, sell the boat for scrap. In fact over here we drill 2" holes through the hull to prevent the boat from getting wet again. With her still in a sling you wouldn't see the cracks as easily but let the boats weight push down on the keel and see if they show up. You'll need the lift operator to work with you on this.

Any boat hand familiar with the Catalina known issues would have this fixed rather quickly and easily. Your gonna wanna grind back the damage to get to solid GRP and then reinforce it. Make sure your using the right type of glass matt/strand for structure work. There's different types for different work.

Basically it's not impossible unless the hull is damaged. The biggest cost here is time (as one post stated 35-50hrs).

 

[jd4cm0601]

In response to some questions. ...
A. I have about $4,500.00 in the boat including accessories and dock fees up to this point. The marina that gave the estimate and the repair guy is saying between 5-6 thousand to repair it.
B. There is a little water and some debris. I will get it all cleaned up and take more photos.
C. Headed over to check on the boat again shortly and see if condition in the bilge is the same.
D. Will be installing a good bilge pump other than the manual one today.

I am working on getting other estimates too. I like the idea of being careful, monitoring it for the rest of the season and then pulling it out and putting it in the backyard for work. It gives me more control and flexibility to bring in others. That saves a lot and I can call in help to get it off the rented or borrowed trailer, blocked up, and then get into it. I will get a pro to take off the keel, then get guidance after. He can then inspect my repairs and put it back together. This also gives me an opportunity to clean and bottom paint myself as well as do other add ons, etc. I will get more books and information throughout the process.
I am keeping the boat and will do what is needed and make it better than when I got it. Through you all, some private messages, and phone conversations; I have the beginning of a plan. Your interest and attention to my problem are really appreciated.

 

[Hydronaut]

Well, don't be discouraged. Go to Home Depot and buy some galvanized 1/2 "x 6" lag bolts. One at a time, drill a hole into the keel from the bilge and screw a lagbolt into the keel. 1/2'drive ratchet with extension works great. Do this with 4-6 lagbolts and you should be fine. This can be done in the water. Just hold your finger over the hole when you pull the drillbit out and insert the lagbolt. After you have several screwed in then go back and forth and tighten each up a bit more. This will snug the keel up nice and tight.
I delivered a boat from Little Creek, VA to Jacksonville, Florida this way and it worked great. Initially I didn't have any bolts so I used a large truck tie down strap and connected to a toe rail around the keel and back up to the opposite toe rail. This did cause a 1-2 knot drag all the way to Elizabeth City where I installed the lag bolts.
When you decide to sell the boat just tell the buyer. He or she will buy the boat anyway and leave it or repair it.

 

[Jackdaw]

JD,

As you have learned, it only takes one mishap or failure for many boats to end up with negative economic value. Like yours is now. Its the reality of old boats. Fixing or repairing them is no cheaper than it would be on a new $75K 25 footer. It just often is not worth it. Look hard (like I'm sure you are) and cutting and running. If you figure $9K (boat+fix) into this one to make it right; $9k also buys a very decent boat.

Also don't beat yourself up re insurance. It looks worse in hind-sight, but your choice to self-insure is very common here, even among those commenting.

 

[jimmcgee]

Repair it to specs period......

John, to what specs exactly?

 

[Stu Jackson]

A. I have about $4,500.00 in the boat including accessories and dock fees up to this point. The marina that gave the estimate and the repair guy is saying between 5-6 thousand to repair it.

Good to hear how you're approaching this.

One point: if all of us included dock fees in the costs of our boats, then logic indicates that the longer we own our boats and keep them at a dock the costs would become astronomical. That's simply NOT how it works. Forget the dock fees, although they do, indeed, come out of the same pocket. While this does not help your "comparatives" since it makes your costs vs. repairs more, it simply should not apply.

The potential repair costs: of course, the more details you can get from any possible repaird or person(s) the better. 35 hours at $100/hr. is $3500. I simply find it hard to find parts that would make up the difference between that and $6K. A couple of tubes of 5200, like were mentioned in the link I sent you back on page 1 or 2 can't possibly come to that.

But you probably knew that already.

Again, good luck, and you seem to have a very good plan going forward.

 

[Stu Jackson]

John, to what specs exactly?

Catalina Yachts has written up a pretty good "How to repair" sheet. This not an unusual event.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6752.msg59230.html#msg59230

 

[mz4wheeler]

Go to Home Depot and buy some galvanized 1/2 "x 6" lag bolts. One at a time, drill a hole into the keel from the bilge and screw a lagbolt into the keel.

What? No, I wouldn't do this.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hydronaut said: ↑
Go to Home Depot and buy some galvanized 1/2 "x 6" lag bolts. One at a time, drill a hole into the keel from the bilge and screw a lagbolt into the keel.

What? No, I wouldn't do this.

I agree, totally useless.

 

[rgranger]

....Initially I didn't have any bolts so I used a large truck tie down strap and connected to a toe rail around the keel and back up to the opposite toe rail......

 

[JohnVTX]

John, to what specs exactly?

Bring it back to original design and specs. Don't cut corners

 

[JohnVTX]

Well, don't be discouraged. Go to Home Depot and buy some galvanized 1/2 "x 6" lag bolts. One at a time, drill a hole into the keel from the bilge and screw a lagbolt into the keel. 1/2'drive ratchet with extension works great. Do this with 4-6 lagbolts and you should be fine. This can be done in the water. Just hold your finger over the hole when you pull the drillbit out and insert the lagbolt. After you have several screwed in then go back and forth and tighten each up a bit more. This will snug the keel up nice and tight.
I delivered a boat from Little Creek, VA to Jacksonville, Florida this way and it worked great. Initially I didn't have any bolts so I used a large truck tie down strap and connected to a toe rail around the keel and back up to the opposite toe rail. This did cause a 1-2 knot drag all the way to Elizabeth City where I installed the lag bolts.
When you decide to sell the boat just tell the buyer. He or she will buy the boat anyway and leave it or repair it.

Yikes..... bad idea

 

[mz4wheeler]

This can be done in the water. Just hold your finger over the hole when you pull the drillbit out and insert the lagbolt.

Hmmm... 1) Dissimilar metals... 2) Salt water will destroy the bolts... 3) Will destroy the integrity of the fiberglass... 4) The bilge will never EVER stop leaking... 5) Get a good quality bilge pump, cause it will be on constantly.

 

[CloudDiver]

JD,
Good Plan... You have my number if you need it. If I was your neighbor I'd give you hand for the cost of beer and some BBQ. I kid you not, we could knock out this job in 2 or 3 weekends this fall.
Keep an eye out for used Brownell Boat stands like I mentioned before, you'll need the 3rd size from smallest. I have the 2nd size from smallest for my C-22 and I know a C-25 fin keel would need taller/larger. 4 might do it, but 6 would be safer.

You don't need a pro to come help you when you eventually drop the keel, just a good buddy who might have some experience. There are some good videos out there on keel removals. The only un-common tool needed is also a very simple tool, some sharp metal wedges. The key to a safe keel removal is having a wood cradle built under the keel to receive it when it drops. This is easily built from some scrap lumber and 2 sturdy pallets.

If you don't have a cherry picker already, plan on getting a used one or borrowing one. Once you place the first two boat stands under the transom you use the cherry picker to lift the bow by the bow eye and remove the trailer. The C25 with a fin keel is pretty high, so a cherry picker would have to be the large size with a longer reach, able to lift at least 1.5 ton to be safe. The better option is to find a buddy with a fork-lift or a tractor w/front end loader. If you can't locate these items, you'd be surprised on how many guys in the area would be willing to show up on a Saturday with a Bobcat for $100 and a 12 pack.

You can do this... Your keel sub will stronger than factory original.