I am in deep trouble! Mayday!

[CloudDiver]

FYI to everyone watching this thread;
Here is alternative to Brownell Boat Stands... less expensive and hot dip galvanized vice painted.
they are in Greenville, NC so it might be worth the drive for some to save on shipping. After a big project you can easily recover some cost by re-selling, or keep them for winter lay-up.
http://www.scaffoldmart.com/marine-products/sail-boat-stands

 

[Thorne]

I have to agree..... Very bad Idea to put the wrong equipment on your boat anywhere.
Your attitude is the most important thing. My attitude is "What do I need to do to go sailing?".
If the boat is broke I fix it, or get it fixed ( Find a marina that cares more about you as a customer than just a paycheck, I'd get a second/third opinion on your keel fix, it's a great way to get to know the folks in the business around where you live and then you can choose a marina based on your new knowledge)
If the boat is dirty, I clean it.
If I am sailing in a new boat I study it as much as I can, then I go sailing
If I have a coastal boat I don't leave the coast line. "NO matter what the spec says"
Small steps are best
Always check the weather before going anywhere in your boat
and on and on.
Your boat is not sunk, so you are still ahead of the game.
btw - liability insurance is a good idea because you are responsible for the damage to the environment if you sink your boat.

My 2 cents is you make your plan, you work your plan. Nobody knows everything, we are all still learning.
I sail a 41 ft Morgan now, but when I started sailing it was with catamarans, I didn't even know you put the rudders down and I didn't have any dagger boards, when I started. ( I wondered why everybody looked at me funny, when I started winning races they didn't look at me funny anymore )

 

[mz4wheeler]

Here is my take... From what I can see, your main issue is the wobbly keel. I am not 100% convinced that you actually NEED to drop it (I could be wrong)... Which means you need to just beef up the stringers, just like they did in the UMA video...

1) Put on stands, let it dry out for a few days.
2) Expose keel joint (grind out)... How big IS the gap, really...
3) Optionally (after #2), drop the keel, but only if you have to (I have my doubts)
4) Remove floor boards (mine are easy. not sure about yours)
5) Grind/sand/chip bilge/stringers as required (per UMA video)
6) Add/replace/repair stringers to beef up the keel mount (per UMA video)
7) Tap (not LAG) a few extra SS keel bolts for added security
8) Reseal keel gap with 5200, reassemble... etc.

I my mind, this could be done at a DIY marina. Cost? A few hundred at most.

 

[lee oakley]

fix it yourself or BAIL OUT

 

[CloudDiver]

Oops, this post was supposed to quote MZ4wheeler, not Lee Oakley... sorry Lee!
MZ4Wheeler... The Catalina 25 does not have a grid structure in the floor... it is a keel stub having a plywood core. The sinking keel nuts is most likely soggy or rotten core wood. Its possible to this repair without dropping the keel, but not a good idea. The only way to be sure is to drop the keel, do the repair by digging out the rotten wood and adding new glass matt, core material (like G10) and final glass cover, re-drill keel bolt holes. The attached link is to a recent job on a C-27 (same design boat really) which had the same issue, the owner couldn't get correct torque on the keel nuts because of the soft core. He did an outstanding job on the repair and he is not a professional;
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/keel-stub-repair-a-few-questions.176209/

I know you are trying to help, and thanks for being positive; but please reserve your comments when you are not familiar with the particular hull that needs the repair in question. In the above linked example, the owner was on the hard and did not remove the keel... BUT he did not strike his keel, no Catalina smile, or cracking around the joint. If the OP follows the steps to the example above he will a bomb proof keel to hull joint and never have to worry about leaks, wobbles, or loose keel nuts again. Since his seal may be compromised after a grounding, the only way to get a sure seal on the 5200 is to drop the keel, do the repair, and remount the keel with fresh 5200. In this case, the keel joint is also glassed over after the 5200 joint is cure and faired.

 

[lee oakley]

That info is great no offense intended but it is the long version of my suggestion! Fix it yourself or Bail out simply because paying to have it done is not cheap

 

[mz4wheeler]

The Catalina 25 does not have a grid structure in the floor... it is a keel stub having a plywood core. The sinking keel nuts is most likely soggy or rotten core wood.

Doesn't matter. You can STILL add a couple of supporting braces to beef up the keel mounts. Catalina just did the minimum. Regarding soggy core... Yes, most likely due to the age of the boat, but wasn't the boat "technically" sea worthy enough to sail before the accident. Should the owner do a complete rebuild of the keel mount? Sure, he could, or should he just do enough to get the boat to the point where he feels safe? Going above and beyond will add zero to the resale value of the boat.

 

[Piotr]

I was advised to get liability only and was getting my third quote the day this happened.

Who advised you????? I have insurance for 3 sailboats from Boats US and the most expensive is $200 full coverage!

 

[Piotr]

There has certainly been a lot of support offered here, but I won't be one of them. The owner should be taken at face value. He stated he is an idiot and probably the worst boat owner in the world. While it's possible to feel sorry for someone who has had a hard grounding, it certainly sounds to me like he should not be encouraged either to fix his boat OR to continue sailing. Ignorance is NOT bliss, it's dangerous.

I cannot believe I just read that.....

 

[jibes138]

Jack makes a good point, a new 25 foot sailboat might run around $75K. I have often theorized that you could invest half the value of a new boat into an old boat and have a boat equal to the new boat. While fixing this boat will not add value and refitting an old boat may not ever return the cost of investment neither will buying a new boat ever return the original cost. New boats depreciate rapidly, just like cars. If the rest of this boat is in great condition, newer outboard motor, good rigging, no deck leaks or wet deck core, decent sails, etc. then having a total of 9 or 10 grand into a nice 25 foot sailboat is not much money to provide an awful lot of fun for a family. How much is it worth to have lasting memories of nice anchorages, beach days, great sailing days, etc? You can blow 10 grand for just a couple weeks in a resort in the Caribbean. I had a Cat 25 for ten years and my kids grew up having a blast on it. Ten grand for those kinds of memories is well worth it. This repair isn't much more than a good set of golf clubs and greens fees for a year.

 

[braol]

Oh, one quick thing. New keel boats are sealed at the factory on a new boat to keep them from corroding. You could take a good wire brush of a wire wheel on a drill or dremel and clean those bolts and then seal with CRC Heavy-Duty Corrosion Inhibitor or Sikkens 291/3m4200, etc...

 

[braol]

I have often theorized that you could invest half the value of a new boat into an old boat and have a boat equal to the new boat.

I agree! In fact I'd say that you can actually have a better boat. A friend of mine is all jealous at my wireless wind instruments...and he owns a nice, swank 3-year old Jeanneau! (I'm not saying that my '78 Hunter 27 is ALL-AROUND better...) Who would have dreamed that my old boat would have LED lights, Dyneema lifelineslow-friction rings, wireless gauges, GPS capable autopilot, gel-cell batteries, AIS/DSC, etc... It's fun to take what is old and put what is new into it.
PS. Funny that only 2 of the 7 upgrades I mentioned is hardware, everything else is an electronic do-hicky...such is life.

 

[dc78212]

JD,

Also don't beat yourself up re insurance. It looks worse in hind-sight, but your choice to self-insure is very common here, even among those commenting.

I have liability with agreed value on my Tartan 27... $358/yr You guys are getting quote from people who do boat insurance... look elsewhere, like who you have the car with.

I would not put 5-6k in a Catalina 25 ever, so good luck with the backyard repair, good winter project.

Putting it all in perspective, many Catalina 25 on Yachtworld.com range in price from 3-7k. As we all know Yachtworld.com is the most expensive way to shop for a boat, but the highest Catalina 25 is in the 7k range so who ever gave you the quote is either giving it very high so you won't do it, or they are crazy, or they don't want to do it.

Just for future issues, find a do-it-yourself boatyard in your area. The one near my boat is $15 a day and lifts in and out of water are included with the stay. Bad part, unless prior agreement is made, all repairs are done within 30 days or everything goes up to the point you don't want to know how much. The best part, always someone around willing to give you a hand, and someone there knows how to do what you are doing.

Good luck

 

[dc78212]

What? No, I wouldn't do this.

Yeah I second, third or fourth NOT doing this... where ever I am in line. This is one of those repairs that make old boats bad deals.

 

[ErnestV]

There has certainly been a lot of support offered here, but I won't be one of them. The owner should be taken at face value. He stated he is an idiot and probably the worst boat owner in the world. While it's possible to feel sorry for someone who has had a hard grounding, it certainly sounds to me like he should not be encouraged either to fix his boat OR to continue sailing. Ignorance is NOT bliss, it's dangerous.

Oh, well, just another one of the type who already knew everything when leaving the womb and never, NEVER ever made any mistake by himself. Tell me how it feels being so wonderful perfect, being surrounded only by idiots?

 

[BigEasy]

As others have mentioned, hire an independent surveyor who has sailboat repair experience. Let him check it out thoroughly and have him give you a detailed report of the damage and necessary repairs including possible alternatives and associated costs. Then you will have a good idea of your repair options and you can use this information to get fair estimates from a few boatyards. Also, continue to research on the Catalina sites so you will have a better understanding of what the surveyor is telling you. Consider the advice and speculation give on this thread; however, No one can appreciate the amount of damage until the bilge is cleaned and thoroughly inspected personally. Obviously, some posters have the resources in experience, equipment, and manpower to do this repair. I have been messing around with boats for a long time and not afraid to take on anything; however, I wouldn't have the resources to do this job if dropping the keel is necessary. Hope it all works out for you.

 

[ddrewry]

Wow, I'm sure you are totally overwhelmed by all the expert advise at this point. The pictures you posted tend to support my earlier suspicions. I don't pretend to know your financial situation but you don't have a large investment here as sailboats go and your Catalina is really a larger day sailer and not a custom ocean going yacht as some advise here seems to imply. At best its a nice weekender. I'm not trying to knock the boat, in fact I think they are great but keep in perspective what you have there. Its an inexpensive, fun, learning platform. Its not worth a lot of money, will never be worth a lot of money no matter how many upgrades you put on it, and its certainly not worth spending a whole lot on repairs. You likely have some minor play in the keel which is really pretty common in the type and age of your boat (its just most people haven't hauled their boats and asked someone to check it out - even those who trailer most of the time). If you hadn't run aground and had someone check it you would probably never know it had some flex as most of the similar boat sailors don't know. Those that talk lightly about removing the keel and rebedding with new 5200 are greatly understating how tenacious that stuff is and how hard it is to remove the cured joint. Like one of the earlier posters told you the 5200 it was put on with is strong enough to hold the keel on even without the bolts. 5200 is a flexible material and as tough as it is the exposed edges will eventually wear away and its quite possible to get water leaks without a compromised structural attachment. The likely weakened core wood material allows some play in the bolt preload so you will get some "play" in the keel. This is probably why a previous owner tried stopping leaks by pouring resin in the bilge. The next time you haul the boat I would spend a couple of hours of your own time with a putty knife removing old 5200 from the perimeter of the hull to keel joint and then run a new bead of material around it with a caulk gun and slap some fresh bottom paint over it. In the meantime I would have everyone wear lifejackets (inflatables are great!) and I would go sailing. It looks like you're sailing in warm water so until you get comfortable with the boats capabilities stay within sight of land and go have some fun. If you start seeing those bolt heads crack that resin poured around them or you start getting leaks again then its probably time to pull the boat and assess its condition again. If the keel really starts to loosen you will feel it in the way the boat handles or stops handling. Very worst case at five or six knots you end up in the water - like any other day sailer. We're not talking an America's Cup event here... I'm sure I'll get even more arrows thrown at me for this as well but based on the hull age and investment you have in the boat - I would agree with your original friend and say just carry liability. Put the money saved into new lines, or sails, or life jackets, or cold drinks! If you're really intimidated by the thought of getting wet, go down to the beach and hitch a ride on a Hobie Cat on a windy day. You will be going a lot faster and falling a lot farther into the water than you will ever see in your boat. The only difference is they will turn their boat back upright and go do it again...you might end up swimming for shore... unlikely but very worst case.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I will chime in one more time as a former Catalina dealer who sold and personally worked on the Catalina 25 in a swing keel, fin keel and wing keel version. I have read all the posts.

First this sailor is new and probably being overwhelmed with what to do. Many of us have experience and some do not. Therefore, I will present this from a professional standpoint even though the owner has yet to advise if he has returned to the boat to see if it is still dry or not.

First all of us in the beginning of sailing did not know how exactly to repair boats but thru the years we gain experience. This is a forum to help one another and the negative comments need to be trashed into the head. Secondly, this is a new sailor learning just like us in the beginning so what we have is a 35 year old boat that hit hard on the leading edge of the keel and there was a leak but temporary repairs have fixed the problem. Not sure if it is holding as the poster has not reported back. Some say to remove the keel while others say not. That decision needs to be presented to the owner along with the costs as he has to make that decision, not us. If the owner had come to me, leak fixed per his recent or last post, I would say go enjoy but keep a watchful eye but get lessons before venturing out any further particular on navigation and swift currents as the owner will probably get a larger boat in a few years as the costs to drop a keel is and will be expensive. Some say to the owner is to repair himself by using a cherry picker off a trailer or other means. Guys, for a novice this is presenting a death notice to the poster. Why, no experience nor the equipment.

I can tell you that a fin keel due to the weight and shape it is in, you have to make a jig to uphold it first and secondly to keep it from falling over. One slip and anything can happen. I have removed a few over the years in my yard as a dealer. When looking at this I also go to past experience as a reconstruction expert for insurance companies. In addition I know of one fellow at a yard taking off that exact keel not heeding advice whose leg was broken thankfully not worse. Saved by God on that one.

As to the photos, the first thing I wanted to see if there was any cracking or pulling of the keel bolts which I did not see. It would be obvious that over the years there could have been water seepageas the resin was added which is not normal. I did see the keel joint cracked. If I had been there, I would have also tried to move that keel by hand in the air and if it did not move nor any water coming out by dripping or being squeezed out, then I would have gouged out the 5200 and resealed it telling the customer to watch the boat for further leaks and then go from there given the circumstances. Also to take the boat out on an annual inspection just to make sure.

In addition other experience also led me to present innovative ideas to the marine industry which are many still in use some which is now standard and also designs of boats. In addition I use to launch sailboats over the bulkheads and bridges as required in some cases and safety was always a factor.

Now the soothsayers but be informative and kind to this new sailor because all of us were there at one time or another. The decision will be his own based on what he sees and can afford. So any negative comment s like I said need to go into the toilet. When I chime in, safety is one factor that I will always include and that gents I will never compromise as I have seen to many injuries and death over the years.

 

[JohnVTX]

I will chime in one more time as a former Catalina dealer who sold and personally worked on the Catalina 25 in a swing keel, fin keel and wing keel version. I have read all the posts.

First this sailor is new and probably being overwhelmed with what to do. Many of us have experience and some do not. Therefore, I will present this from a professional standpoint even though the owner has yet to advise if he has returned to the boat to see if it is still dry or not.

First all of us in the beginning of sailing did not know how exactly to repair boats but thru the years we gain experience. This is a forum to help one another and the negative comments need to be trashed into the head. Secondly, this is a new sailor learning just like us in the beginning so what we have is a 35 year old boat that hit hard on the leading edge of the keel and there was a leak but temporary repairs have fixed the problem. Not sure if it is holding as the poster has not reported back. Some say to remove the keel while others say not. That decision needs to be presented to the owner along with the costs as he has to make that decision, not us. If the owner had come to me, leak fixed per his recent or last post, I would say go enjoy but keep a watchful eye but get lessons before venturing out any further particular on navigation and swift currents as the owner will probably get a larger boat in a few years as the costs to drop a keel is and will be expensive. Some say to the owner is to repair himself by using a cherry picker off a trailer or other means. Guys, for a novice this is presenting a death notice to the poster. Why, no experience nor the equipment.

I can tell you that a fin keel due to the weight and shape it is in, you have to make a jig to uphold it first and secondly to keep it from falling over. One slip and anything can happen. I have removed a few over the years in my yard as a dealer. When looking at this I also go to past experience as a reconstruction expert for insurance companies. In addition I know of one fellow at a yard taking off that exact keel not heeding advice whose leg was broken thankfully not worse. Saved by God on that one.

As to the photos, the first thing I wanted to see if there was any cracking or pulling of the keel bolts which I did not see. It would be obvious that over the years there could have been water seepageas the resin was added which is not normal. I did see the keel joint cracked. If I had been there, I would have also tried to move that keel by hand in the air and if it did not move nor any water coming out by dripping or being squeezed out, then I would have gouged out the 5200 and resealed it telling the customer to watch the boat for further leaks and then go from there given the circumstances. Also to take the boat out on an annual inspection just to make sure.

In addition other experience also led me to present innovative ideas to the marine industry which are many still in use some which is now standard and also designs of boats. In addition I use to launch sailboats over the bulkheads and bridges as required in some cases and safety was always a factor.

Now the soothsayers but be informative and kind to this new sailor because all of us were there at one time or another. The decision will be his own based on what he sees and can afford. So any negative comment s like I said need to go into the toilet. When I chime in, safety is one factor that I will always include and that gents I will never compromise as I have seen to many injuries and death over the years.

What Crazy Don said.....

 

[jimmcgee]

Bring it back to original design and specs. Don't cut corners

OK But what design specs?

John, unfortunately text on forums has no tone so please understand that I am NOT trying to be a smartass here; but to what specs are you referring?

The number of layers of glass in the keel stub and directly aft? Are you referring to the resin to glass ratio in these areas? Deflection under load?

This doesn't look like a catastrophic hit. The person doing the repairs will likely find some cracks and possibly some delamination aft of the keel. The compressed front nut may be from the hit or it may have simply been over-torqued at some point in the boat's life. Some exploratory grinding will determine the extent of the damage and necessary repairs. None of us can fully diagnose the necessary repairs from photos on the Net.

Those repairs should be in line with bringing a lightweight coastal cruiser back into safe operating condition and it really is a judgement call on the part of the person doing the repair. There isn't a "spec" for this and there may not be a single "right" way to do it. In fact there's usually more than one way to fix things.

Jim