New Old Macgregor Venture 21 (1974) Owner with questions

[EV21]

Just acquired a Macgregor Venture 21 about 2 weeks ago.
Knew going in the craft needs a good bit of work, particularly below the waterline.
Figured working my way through the issues will help me get to know the boat, its good and less good points and parts. Am figuring out what needs doing and am now seeking some brains to pick with some specific questions. A manual online answers a lot but also raises two questions I can't answer yet -- hoping for some help here.

Question Set 1: Diagram of the swing keel system shows a keel lock-down bolt and lock-down bolt holes but have been unable to locate any of the lock-down components/locations.
I've stripped quit a bit of stuff out of the way and explored with a flashlight and video inspection scope -- No Joy.
Is it possible that in the 42 year life of the boat that someone might have covered over the lock-down holes
having decided they just didn't want to lock the keel down? OR were some boats built without a lock-down provision?
I plan to remove the entire keel system for reconditioning and am wanting to know as much as I can before I get started. Any help will be appreciated. If anybody has a Mac V21 anywhere near the central Delaware area would appreciate a chance to have a look and maybe get some ideas.

Question Set 2: Manual mentions foam blocks installed for flotation in the interior of the boat and cautions against removal of the blocks "under any circumstances".
I cannot find any foam blocks installed in the boat -- I HAVE found several small
loose chunks of what I think is polystyrene foam less than an inch in size in various nooks and crannies. Could this be remnants of original manufacturer installed flotation blocks? (or just leftovers of some cheapie coolers)
Can anyone tell me where the foam flotation blocks can/should be positioned and what volume of foam is used and where?

 

[centerline]

The keel lock down bolt is above and forward of the pivot bolt about 8"... and yes it may be possible that some dummy glassed the holes over, as its a suggestion that comes up sometimes by someone who doesnt really sail the boat, but only rides around in it in calm weather....

The original foam blocks were cut as large as possible to fit in the space under the vberth and under the cabin settees, and in the rear of the boat in the lazerette area...
If there is none there, its probable that the same dummy that glassed over the lockpin hole, removed the foam... you can walk any dock anywhere and see a number of boats where the owner of it has his own idea of what makes a good "improvement" or upgrade to his boat, and a lot of times, if one were able to look very close, it would be obvious that safety improvements arent one of them...

 

[JohnCTV21]

In my 21 the lock bolt is inside the liner, directly above the pivot bolt.

And I also have the original foam in my boat, yes it is big blocks of foam where ever they could fit them.

Sent you a pm

 

[EV21]

Thanks folks, I bet you're right about the boat having been "improved". Can't pretend I haven't improved some things myself but accept my floating ability won't keep up with foam. Any guesstimate of how much foam volume we're talking about? My figuring suggests it would take about 20 cu-ft to buoy 1200 lbs. (a lot of 7-Eleven coolers).
As for the lock-down bolt. Will have to do some head scratching to figure out where to re drill for that. Suggestions solicited.
On that topic: Does the area around the lock-down bolt holes have any special reinforcement or other tell-tales that might help me locate where to re drill? Thanks again!

 

[BudGates]

The entire keel trunk is fairly thick with no particular reinforcement for either the lock-down or the pivot bolt. Your best method of finding the correct location would be to remove the pivot bolt and lower the keel so that you can make a cardboard template. While the keel is down try to find the stop for the keel rotation. Then line up the template with the pivot bolt inside the slot and find the proper angle for the keel in the down position. Once you have that you can use the template inside the boat to locate the new lock-down hole.

 

[justsomeguy]

And alongside BudGates' suggestion, build a quick and dirty sturdy frame to support the keel. Very heavy to mess around with.

 

[BudGates]

And alongside BudGates' suggestion, build a quick and dirty sturdy frame to support the keel. Very heavy to mess around with.

That's a very good point for if you completely remove the keel. The aft end of my V-222 rested on a support allowing me to lower the forward end enough to work on it while the keel was still supported.

Another tip for reinstalling the keel. When you raise the keel into place and look through the pivot hole all you can see is a blank side of the keel with no way to know if it should move forward, backward, up, or down. To remedy this just section off around the pivot hole in quarters and paint each quadrant a different color. You won't know how far to move to align the hole but you'll have no question as to which direction.

 

[JohnCTV21]

For installing the keel.
Stick a string through the hole from the outside of the trunk, through the keel bolt hole and out through the other side, until the string is straight, it always points to where the hole is in the keel.

The lock bolt is approx 9.5" above the keel pivot bolt, about 1" forward.
I emailed you a picture of my keel trunk, it is still factory configuration

 

[Tsatzsue]

Cuscus has some great pics and notes on how he aligned his keel for re-installation. I have used the same process of using a marker to mark gradients on the keel so you can track where the hole is several time myself.

I have been called worse Centerline but thanks for the kudos. Not worth the keystrokes.

 

[centerline]

I have been called worse Centerline but thanks for the kudos. Not worth the keystrokes.

It might be better if i didnt, but im going to ask anyway, Did YOU glass over your lock down pin hole?...

 

[Tsatzsue]

I did not. Previous owner did and did a lousy job. In one of my recent posts I describe what happened. He hit a rock and sank the boat. Tore the trunk. I repaired it properly but never ended up drilling it out. I made all the hardware and even have the 3/8 friction plugs ready to go. Sailed with my drill and hardware for a whole season.

I have intentions of completing since I have gone this far but doubt I will use it. If the s really hits the fan and there is time to install it it will be good to know it is there, don't get me wrong.

I do not pass judgement on those who do or do not. Everyone has an opinion but calling people dummies who sail in calm water because they do not see eye to eye on a subject is juvenile and hit a nerve with me. Offering suggestions and opinions is one thing but ridiculing is another. I welcome all input from everyone on this blog all of you have helped me tremendously in getting acquainted with an old boat and getting the most out of her. I try to share where I can as well from my experiences.
She has been put to the test more than once and if you have never sailed in New England you should try it sometime. Bring your safety harness because yes, we do have water that is rarely calm and often a test to you and your vessel. Oh, and rocks that are not charted or near shore that can tear a hole in your boat before you can say "what was that".

I said not worth the keystrokes but I couldn't help myself.

Ken B.
Cmdre
North East Trailer Sailors Yacht Club

 

[EV21]

Thanks folks -- FOUND THE HOLES !!! or at least where they had been. Not glassed over (whew!) but plugged with corks and seemingly razor-bladed flush and sealed, maybe varnished or something. If you're ever looking to camouflage a plugged hole in rough fiberglass, that seems to be the way to do it. I know my eyes have seen better but my glasses usually pick up the slack. I noted after I dug out the cork in the starboard hole that it was elongated a bit -- maybe an extra 1/4". Port side was nice and round. Glass seems sound and solid. One thing that really surprised is how close the port side hole is to what's left of the liner. Unquestionably the liner has been modded -- maybe to improve access. Even with what looks like a substantial amount of hacking of the liner port side of the keel trunk, it was still difficult to see the plugged hole. Having a hard time imagining it not being a major pain to fit/secure the bolt -- especially afloat! May be part of why a PO decided !@#$% with locking the the keel! Glad I'm looking for this stuff ashore. Any thoughts on practicality of installing small, white, keel-lock-bolt locator LEDs in the keel trunk that can illuminate the cavity between the lock-down holes in the keel and trunk sides? Simpler than a laser alignment indicator and linear actuator to set a lock pin. STILL NO FOAM.

 

[BudGates]

Congratulations on finding the hole. The foam is nice insurance but often thought of as overkill. I'm sure you can get some at a hardware store if you choose to replace it. Thanks for the update.

 

[EV21]

Ok, Some more questions:
1. What's the significance of the V 2672 sewn on the mainsail that came with my boat? Is it a manufacturer assigned number or some other designator associated with the boat? (doesn't seem to correspond to any part of the hull number or other registration information)
2. Can anyone identify the device in the attached photo? I can't see any manufacturer name or number on it. There are two installed - one each side about two feet aft of the companionway bulkhead. They don't function the way I'd expect a winch to function. There is single-direction ratcheting of the central drum -- turns clockwise viewed from above. The smaller chromed cylinder free spins in either direction around the slotted screw/axle and the outer top does not move. (should it?) The C-shaped castings atop the non-moving "crown" suggest provision for some kind of attachable device like a handle that may be intended to use the free spinning small cylinder as an axle/bearing that might apply torque to the crown. Have run across a device called a snubber / snubbing winch apparently used to assist with controlling release rate of a line and/or provide a holding tension against a line load vs increasing mechanical advantage for pulling -- Is that what these are? Are mine working correctly by my description. I'm hesitant to remove and dismantle these unnecessarily if they're doing all they're supposed to do. Some V21 pics don't show these installed. Is it worth considering substituting conventional winches in place of these?
3. Can anyone recommend some sources for parts for V21 boats? In particular I'd like to add a bow pulpit and possibly some form of lifelines. I'm hoping for some recommendations for used but usable stuff. I don't mind adding the elbow grease and polish/wax. Anybody have/know of a V21 beyond saving that has an organ-donor card ?

 

[topcat0399]

That is a regular winch that was installed during the boat build or shortly after by a dealer. We have 2 just like it.
I don't suppose you have the original handles do you? Ours are long gone and we are left with a home made aluminum one that a PO had made and promptly bent I'm thinking. Its rare that we use the handle anyway but I do often wrap the winch with a jib line or the main sheet and heave and cleat when the wind is up.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up about "original" Mac/Venture stuff while you outfit. Many many sailboats are very similar in function and layout. A Hunter mast hound for example will work just fine on a Mac mast as long as the dimensions are close.

I wouldn't hesitate to put a Catalina Pulpit and Pushpit on my Venture provided the dimensions were in the ball park.

Our Venture was fitted with a Kenyon mast a few weeks ago - definitley not OEM. I'm in the proesscess finally of ditching all of the original Venture deck fittings for better stuff. These boats were built and fitted out bare bones and on the cheap.

Some dealers added some better stuff and attachments such as cabin top grab rails etc, but most Ventures were pretty plain jane and the running gear was a joke.

 

[JohnCTV21]

The number on the sail would normally match the hull number.

I am going to look at a V 17 over the weekend, it might be a donor boat from the description I have, I'll let you know what I find.

 

[EV21]

Thanks folks, So I guess the C-shaped cast protrusions are what engaged the handle? Any Idea who made those winches? Do I understand correctly that with handles (if they're findable/makeable) these do provide some mechanical advantage for pulling? If anybody knows of any handles available, will appreciate the intel. Also, re my parts hunt question if anybody knows of any boat salvage (junkyards) places around the DelMarVa area, will also appreciate that info as well. I agree I don't want to get ahead of myself on bits and pieces that can wait. Keel/bottom is job 1 right now. Just don't want to ignore opportunities that may be here today, gone tomorrow.

 

[EV21]

Also Topcat, I follow and agree with your reasoning about not getting too wrapped up in "original". As this is my first sailboat, it's very much a learning opportunity and my pockets are not deep enough to go crazy with high-end goodies. To that point, if as you do your upgrades you have stuff to part with, let me know as it might be something I can use.

 

[Freedom77]

Roger MacGregor is the Henry Ford of sailboats. Built a good product on an assembly line at an economical price. He contracted out a lot of parts including winches. I was the dealer here in Sin City for a while. Went to the factory on numerous occasions. Foam flotation was made claim that they were "unsinkable". Does the name Titanic ring bell? PO probably removed foam for more storage. Yeah, Sail # should be hull number. What year is she if you know? Our 21 was a 1968.

 

[EV21]

My boat is a '74. Suspect this is not an original sail -- at least not for this boat. Looks pretty experienced but I had a friend with sailing experience help me look things over and he said he thought it was serviceable. That's enough for a start. Keeping my eyes open but have a 400 lb fish to fry down where it's supposed to get wet. As a former dealer, any suggestions about where a handle for this type winch might be available? Thanks for the insights.