Good story dont think i,ll show my Admiral it either .In our family we have a pecking order of course my better half is the admiral ,my 6 year old daughter who claims the boat is hers is the captain .and I have been bumped down to mere deckhand and swabby .lol.
Also check with west marines catalog they sell pretty much everything youll need .got it all for my v224.
I love it!! Good job. Kept going. I pulled through a winch failure, jury rigged it and sailed the rest of the weekend. East end Cape Cod Canal Canal chop. Cable all the way out and 5 foot chop. the keel was swinging into the trunk end so hard I could see the floor of the cabin floor deforming with each impact. Admiral grabbed the helm and I jumped into action. cranked up the slack, make shift bungee and away we went for three days. Overcoming the inevitable obstacles makes the memories.
There is never a shortage!!!
There is never a shortage!!!
Back with some new issues. Got my keel out and onto the dolly. New issue, now visible with the iron down and out of the way, is that way up inside the keel trunk in the area about where I think the top of the keel nests when it's down there's damage to the fiberglass that looks like it was caused by the top of the keel being jammed against the inside of the trunk "channel" and also you can see part of a long screw that somehow has been run through the liner and hull and made its way into the trunk inner space and was apparently bent over by the keel. See pix -- not great but best I could get with my cheapie scope cam. Looks like the fiberglass has been crunched all the way through -- may be at a level that's usually above the waterline but not really sure. There's also an arc that's been gouged on one side that looks like maybe was done by a partly sheared/jammed lock down bolt that was dragged by the pivoting keel until it got clear of the trunk and either fell out or was removed. Don't think the gouge will be a big deal to fill/fix but the crunched zone up inside is very hard to access (can't get my hand much more than halfway up in there) .
Anybody have any suggestions as to best way to access/fix the crunched area? Doesn't have to be pretty just watertight and sturdy. Trying to think of a method to reach up there with something like a stiff wire brush to clean it well to facilitate a bond. Am thinking about maybe something like an epoxy putty to fill/patch/seal the crunched area. Access to "back" side of the crunched zone is blocked by the liner. Was also wondering about whether there may be something like a marine version of expanding foam that could fill/seal the space?
Anybody have any suggestions as to best way to access/fix the crunched area? Doesn't have to be pretty just watertight and sturdy. Trying to think of a method to reach up there with something like a stiff wire brush to clean it well to facilitate a bond. Am thinking about maybe something like an epoxy putty to fill/patch/seal the crunched area. Access to "back" side of the crunched zone is blocked by the liner. Was also wondering about whether there may be something like a marine version of expanding foam that could fill/seal the space?
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My keel is not constructed of solid cast steel, so other construction characteristics could be different on my V21, too.
At the top, aft end of the trunk, a hard rubber block was bolted in clear through the side walls of the trunk. (I also have no liner, so when I took that obvious bolt out I initially thought it was the pivot bolt and found the real, larger, lower bolt when the keel wouldn't drop!
) I wonder if that screw was supposed to hold in a similar block on your version? I think that rubber block maintains the keel's down angle (60ish degrees) when the winch cable was slack. It also would keep the top aft corner of the keel from riding on the aft face of the trunk (would only happen if allowed to hang at or past vertical). The screw could also be from some other (errant) PO mod inside the cabin...eek!
I wonder if the curved gouge was due to the pivot bolt being 'sloppy' and causing the keel to pull to one side and rub when raised and lowered...or just working when sailing. Were the pivot bolt holes in the keel and trunk sides all in solid shape, or did they look worn excessively?
You might be able to craft a long handle extension to hold a narrow putty knife blade or reasonably stiff facimile to use to spread bondo (2 part epoxy filler) in the crunched area. You'll need to do something similar to make a sanding block to smooth it and then a brush to apply a top coat, if desired.
No end to the fun, huh?! Cheers!
At the top, aft end of the trunk, a hard rubber block was bolted in clear through the side walls of the trunk. (I also have no liner, so when I took that obvious bolt out I initially thought it was the pivot bolt and found the real, larger, lower bolt when the keel wouldn't drop!
) I wonder if that screw was supposed to hold in a similar block on your version? I think that rubber block maintains the keel's down angle (60ish degrees) when the winch cable was slack. It also would keep the top aft corner of the keel from riding on the aft face of the trunk (would only happen if allowed to hang at or past vertical). The screw could also be from some other (errant) PO mod inside the cabin...eek!I wonder if the curved gouge was due to the pivot bolt being 'sloppy' and causing the keel to pull to one side and rub when raised and lowered...or just working when sailing. Were the pivot bolt holes in the keel and trunk sides all in solid shape, or did they look worn excessively?
You might be able to craft a long handle extension to hold a narrow putty knife blade or reasonably stiff facimile to use to spread bondo (2 part epoxy filler) in the crunched area. You'll need to do something similar to make a sanding block to smooth it and then a brush to apply a top coat, if desired.
No end to the fun, huh?!
Cheers!Thanks ED, Didn't know there may have been some kind of rubber snubber up there but seems like a good idea. I was thinking about brewing up some kind of pad to attach to the keel itself but putting a block in the trunk probably makes more sense. Wonder if there was one on my boat that fell out and that's how the then-unprotected trunk got crunched. Was thinking I might be able to rig a cylindrical bottle type brush to an extension and drive it with a drill to clean the area pretty well. I recently used some epoxy putty on a project and liked the way it handled, thought if I could get it to bond and be watertight I'd be able to jam a big wad of of it up into the space and tamp it in tight and shape it with a rounded-end "tool".
I don't remember the exact year that the hull number id was required by federal regulations.
If yours does not have a plate with the hull number, then you may be able to find it inside of the hull. On my 1970 Venture 21 the number was drilled in the stringer that formed the base of the quarter berths. My 1970 with 12" draft was built between the 21's with the 18" draft and the ones that were built with hull liners.
If yours does not have a plate with the hull number, then you may be able to find it inside of the hull. On my 1970 Venture 21 the number was drilled in the stringer that formed the base of the quarter berths. My 1970 with 12" draft was built between the 21's with the 18" draft and the ones that were built with hull liners.
Not sure about hull number requirement either but mine's a '74 and it's molded in the starboard stern corner.
Here is a photo of the hard rubber block from my keel trunk. I didn't note its orientation when installed (it fell out when I finally managed to get the keel freed up and out), so I am not sure if that corner notch had a purpose. It seems to be the wrong angle to help maintain the keel's 60 angle when fully down. It also looks rather crudely fabricated...so I now wonder if it was a P.O. modification!
Anyone else aware of such a block installed in the top, aft corner of their trunk?
Anyone else aware of such a block installed in the top, aft corner of their trunk?
Knuttle,
I have looked for my hull number at both the starboard stern and port quarterberth stringer locations...no sign of any numbers. I could be the victim of a previous owner when filled the stern numbers in before repainting...maybe I'll discover them when prepping for new paint. Where on the stringer are your numbers drilled - port side? forward or aft of the cabin hatch bulkhead? I know I looked back under the cockpit... My title says 1974 and #712 and it has been so long since I've had the sails out of the bag, I can't verify they match that number.
I am intrigued by your statement suggesting the 12" draft is not universal. When my delaminating keel was hanging retracted (photo shows it dropped down as I worked to free it), albeit not fully snugged up to the hull due to its restricted travel, its full width was below the hull and I don't see any way the draft could be only 12". Do you suppose the 12" draft was for the all-steel keel and the 18" was for composite steel-lead-polyester filler style keels like mine?
Another mystery to solve!
Ed
I have looked for my hull number at both the starboard stern and port quarterberth stringer locations...no sign of any numbers. I could be the victim of a previous owner when filled the stern numbers in before repainting...maybe I'll discover them when prepping for new paint. Where on the stringer are your numbers drilled - port side? forward or aft of the cabin hatch bulkhead? I know I looked back under the cockpit... My title says 1974 and #712 and it has been so long since I've had the sails out of the bag, I can't verify they match that number.
I am intrigued by your statement suggesting the 12" draft is not universal. When my delaminating keel was hanging retracted (photo shows it dropped down as I worked to free it), albeit not fully snugged up to the hull due to its restricted travel, its full width was below the hull and I don't see any way the draft could be only 12". Do you suppose the 12" draft was for the all-steel keel and the 18" was for composite steel-lead-polyester filler style keels like mine?
Another mystery to solve!
Ed
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Thanks for the pix Ed. Your keel looks different than mine. I think mine's just an iron casting.
Your picture of the rubber block is helpful. I'm trying to guesstimate the dimensions and I'm thinking it's maybe about 3 x 4 inches and maybe an inch thick. Does that seem anywhere close? Also, was there a bolt or something through the keel trunk that engaged the hole in the rubber block to hold it?
Your picture of the rubber block is helpful. I'm trying to guesstimate the dimensions and I'm thinking it's maybe about 3 x 4 inches and maybe an inch thick. Does that seem anywhere close? Also, was there a bolt or something through the keel trunk that engaged the hole in the rubber block to hold it?
EV,
Close, but I just measured and it is 4" X 3.75" and that notch is about 3/4". All but one side is very roughly cut, so it seems like a rather quick & dirty job. I'll have to try reinserting it in the well to figure out the proper/original orientation. I suspect the notched corner fits in the top-aft corner where the glass is rounded by the fillet.
On the bolt, yes, my trunk had the 5/8" pivot bolt low on the trunk, then the approx. 3/8" lock bolt hole near the top toward the bow end, then this block's 3/8ish" bolt toward the top toward the trunk's aft end. Both the lock and block holes are well above the waterline.
If you scan my few posts by going to my profile link, I shared my trials to free up and remove the keel in an earlier post. I thought that block's bolt was the pivot bolt. I later learned the factory pivot bolt must have been leaking and the P.O. must have covered it with plastic medicine dispensing cups and a ton of silicone caulk. The keel came out much more easily after finding and removing that one!
The keel was bound in the lower part of the trunk due to the 4"X 5/8" steel core bar having rusted. It had expanded to the point of cracking the fiberglass filler and outer cloth laminate. There were also cracks in the filler where the upper flat section flair out to to the cast lead bulb section. The steel core appears to have been cast in the lead bulb. As you note, there were two styles of keel in these boats. Mine was supposedly the older 'composite' style. Given the delamination issues and apparently multi-step construction process, I can see why they went to cast iron, not to mention the probable health issues of working with the lead.
I am now working on rebuilding the keel by cleaning that rusted steel core, reconnecting the old glass/filler piece to use as a crude plug for laying up a glass mold, and then I will recast the steel core/lead bulb in polyester or epoxy filler so we can shape it close to the original, glass it all with a few layers of fiberglass and put a final coating of paint on it. Phew!
We'll see if anyone else has blocks like this...
Ed
Close, but I just measured and it is 4" X 3.75" and that notch is about 3/4". All but one side is very roughly cut, so it seems like a rather quick & dirty job. I'll have to try reinserting it in the well to figure out the proper/original orientation. I suspect the notched corner fits in the top-aft corner where the glass is rounded by the fillet.
On the bolt, yes, my trunk had the 5/8" pivot bolt low on the trunk, then the approx. 3/8" lock bolt hole near the top toward the bow end, then this block's 3/8ish" bolt toward the top toward the trunk's aft end. Both the lock and block holes are well above the waterline.
If you scan my few posts by going to my profile link, I shared my trials to free up and remove the keel in an earlier post. I thought that block's bolt was the pivot bolt. I later learned the factory pivot bolt must have been leaking and the P.O. must have covered it with plastic medicine dispensing cups and a ton of silicone caulk. The keel came out much more easily after finding and removing that one!
The keel was bound in the lower part of the trunk due to the 4"X 5/8" steel core bar having rusted. It had expanded to the point of cracking the fiberglass filler and outer cloth laminate. There were also cracks in the filler where the upper flat section flair out to to the cast lead bulb section. The steel core appears to have been cast in the lead bulb. As you note, there were two styles of keel in these boats. Mine was supposedly the older 'composite' style. Given the delamination issues and apparently multi-step construction process, I can see why they went to cast iron, not to mention the probable health issues of working with the lead.
I am now working on rebuilding the keel by cleaning that rusted steel core, reconnecting the old glass/filler piece to use as a crude plug for laying up a glass mold, and then I will recast the steel core/lead bulb in polyester or epoxy filler so we can shape it close to the original, glass it all with a few layers of fiberglass and put a final coating of paint on it. Phew!
We'll see if anyone else has blocks like this...
Ed
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The screw is definitely for the rubber chunk. I have the same set up. Screw and no chunk. Due to the tight spot to get in there I would glass from the inside. No need to worry about aesthetics. Good couple coats of epoxy impregnated glass and you will be good to go. You may have to cut the inside locker and install an access plate. I still have to intall a new access plate in my trunk. PO hit a rock and tore a slot in the trunk.
The block must have sat sideways in the slot to give you more compression. Looks like it did it's job the way it is bent over. It didn;t save the glass though. I have not replaced mine.
The block must have sat sideways in the slot to give you more compression. Looks like it did it's job the way it is bent over. It didn;t save the glass though. I have not replaced mine.
Tsatzsue (aka Ken),
EV21 had the gouge and no rubber block - I have the rubber-like block, and luckily no trunk damage. My keel was in bad shape after sitting on the sandy saltwater bottom at low tide for over a year and then on a trailer and stands in my carport for 25 years with the keel core continuing to rust and split the glass cloth casing. So, my block fell out when I finally got the keel out this past spring...so many other little projects keep popping up now that I am retired and progress on rebuilding the keel is going slowly.
Thanks for confirming the standard Mac use of the blocks in the trunk!
Cheers! Ed
EV21 had the gouge and no rubber block - I have the rubber-like block, and luckily no trunk damage. My keel was in bad shape after sitting on the sandy saltwater bottom at low tide for over a year and then on a trailer and stands in my carport for 25 years with the keel core continuing to rust and split the glass cloth casing. So, my block fell out when I finally got the keel out this past spring...so many other little projects keep popping up now that I am retired and progress on rebuilding the keel is going slowly.
Thanks for confirming the standard Mac use of the blocks in the trunk!
Cheers! Ed
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"Where on the stringer are your numbers drilled - port side? forward or aft of the cabin hatch bulkhead? I know I looked back under the cockpit."
It has been years since I crawled head first into the quarter berth to see mine. On mine built Dec 1970, it is a series of holes in the vertical stinger arranged to make the numbers. I believe it is under the quarter berth on the right facing the bow.
If this does not work do a search on google on the string "pictures of venture 21 sailboat"
https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...=59YZWLfmAsfjmAGy5pWwBw#imgrc=wpOe17Ce33syoM:
My boat was one of the first to have the 12" draft. The keel on this boat is to pieces of 3/4 plate steel roughly the lenght and width of the keel. It is roughly the shape of the keel and both the keel bolt and the lift cable go through these plates. The plates are enclosed in fiberglass and finished. The 12'' draft allowed the boat to sit lower on the trailer than the 18'' design
It has been years since I crawled head first into the quarter berth to see mine. On mine built Dec 1970, it is a series of holes in the vertical stinger arranged to make the numbers. I believe it is under the quarter berth on the right facing the bow.
If this does not work do a search on google on the string "pictures of venture 21 sailboat"
https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...=59YZWLfmAsfjmAGy5pWwBw#imgrc=wpOe17Ce33syoM:
My boat was one of the first to have the 12" draft. The keel on this boat is to pieces of 3/4 plate steel roughly the lenght and width of the keel. It is roughly the shape of the keel and both the keel bolt and the lift cable go through these plates. The plates are enclosed in fiberglass and finished. The 12'' draft allowed the boat to sit lower on the trailer than the 18'' design
Knuttle,
So, that sounds like a third construction method - cast, two steel plates/filler/glass and what I refer to as 'composite' (steel bar/lead bulb/filler/glass). I wonder, since the boats are so old, if keels have been rebuilt by owners who applied their own creative problem solving and construction skills.
When the keel is raised all the way up, have you measured from the center line of the hull to lowest point of the keel? I took measurements off mine before tearing it down to the steel bar/lead bulb and it is 13 5/8". The indentation in the hull that receives the keel when raised ends where the bulb begins, so it hangs down at least that far. Add to that the distance to the water line and it seems mine is one of those with 18" draft. My title says it is 1974 and #712...go figure!
I think I looked for hull numbers on those risers, likely after having read a previous post of yours! If my hull is really a 1974 version, maybe I'll find the numbers puttied over on the transom.
Thanks for the follow-up info!
Cheers!
Ed
So, that sounds like a third construction method - cast, two steel plates/filler/glass and what I refer to as 'composite' (steel bar/lead bulb/filler/glass). I wonder, since the boats are so old, if keels have been rebuilt by owners who applied their own creative problem solving and construction skills.
When the keel is raised all the way up, have you measured from the center line of the hull to lowest point of the keel? I took measurements off mine before tearing it down to the steel bar/lead bulb and it is 13 5/8". The indentation in the hull that receives the keel when raised ends where the bulb begins, so it hangs down at least that far. Add to that the distance to the water line and it seems mine is one of those with 18" draft. My title says it is 1974 and #712...go figure!
I think I looked for hull numbers on those risers, likely after having read a previous post of yours! If my hull is really a 1974 version, maybe I'll find the numbers puttied over on the transom.
Thanks for the follow-up info!
Cheers!
Ed
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EV21,
Since your cast keel is out, did you make a sketch, or locate an official one, showing the hole locations and dimensions. There was another post with a delaminating keel wondering if a cast keel could be swapped for his...
..,..I'll edit adding a link to the thread, if I can get 'back' to it...
FOUND IT: http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/i-have-a-nice-old-venture-21.182329/#post-1337620
I am sure others would be interested in comparing/confirming swapability. My sketch is attached.
Cheers! Ed
Since your cast keel is out, did you make a sketch, or locate an official one, showing the hole locations and dimensions. There was another post with a delaminating keel wondering if a cast keel could be swapped for his...
..,..I'll edit adding a link to the thread, if I can get 'back' to it...
FOUND IT: http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/i-have-a-nice-old-venture-21.182329/#post-1337620
I am sure others would be interested in comparing/confirming swapability. My sketch is attached.
Cheers! Ed
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I did made a rough sketch but am currently trying to get an accurate spacing between the pivot bolt hole and the lock down bolt hole. Reason is that the pivot bolt hole is not round - somewhat elongated - maybe 5/8" by 7/8". I want to bore/ream out the pivot hole round and oversize it to accommodate a stout bushing but don't want to end up with the center of the overbored pivot hole moved such that the lock down bolt won't align with the existing holes in the keel trunk. If anyone knows of an "official" diagram with dimensions I'd appreciate any sharing. So far I've made a plywood mock up to use for trial fits but haven't drilled the holes yet. Hoping to get to that soon.