Wheel Conversion

Ron20324 · Dec 10, 2012

I had a B235 and contemplated the same change to a wheel. The Edson package looked good, but I didn't like taking up the space below the cockpit that it would require. I ended up just raising the rudder to the next dimple, about 8 inches, and that stopped wiping peoples' sandwiches off the plate in their lap. Go for it, 2-22, and maybe you can swing it to YOUR satistaction!

neilleparkerjr · Dec 10, 2012

Hello new-2-22s,

As a former Capri 22 (performance version of the Catalina 22) owner, my advice to you would also be NOT to attempt a wheel installation. The cockpit isn't shaped for it. It is, however, long. That allows your crew room to slide forward, out of the way of the tiller swing. You could also try cutting the end of the tiller off to make it a little shorter. If you and your crew are a bunch of beefy guys, you might be able to get away with less leverage. I didn't need the full length of the thing (although I didn't ever find the length a problem, either). FIRST, though, try steering in some really nasty weather, with some big following seas, holding on to the tiller at its middle, and see if it's okay.

If you really like this sailing thing though, follow the best advice on this post ... get yourself a bigger boat. I had no trouble selling the Capri for what I paid for it in the middle of a recession. And owners trying to sell larger boats (like me) are having to drop their prices way down.

neilleparkerjr · Dec 10, 2012

Forgot to add, autopilot for tiller-steered boats is way simpler, cheaper, and more reliable than a wheelpilot. Installation is much easier too. It just takes a couple of seconds at the end of each sail to pack it up and stow it below, so it's not vulnerable to the elements either. Check this out:

http://www.starmarinedepot.com/Raym...r+Pilot.html?gclid=CLyhuuaJkLQCFQqk4AodLWYAiw

tombeau · Dec 10, 2012

Weight

We have seen C-22s w/a wheel. 2 issues: weight is 1st. Catalina 22s are sensitive to weight in the stern, especially when sailing downwind or motoring. Adding weight forward will work a little but has its own drawbacks. 2nd is space. When at anchor or dock, the tiller can be moved out of the way. Wheel can be removed, but pedestal is still an issue. When under way, you will need to walk on the seat to get back to the engine. I like wheels on boats where they fit, & have one on our 30, but the 22 works much better w/a tiller

captcoho · Dec 10, 2012

Are you sure you really want to do this???
The wheel takes up alot of room in the cockpit, isn't as fast in the tacks so you lose momentum.
And one thing I miss is not having the feel of the boat holding the tiller, sailing "in the groove".

sailhard · Dec 10, 2012

Mini Mac19

Sail123 said:
Someday I would like to make a mini Mac 26M out of a Mac 19. I WOULD add wheel helm steering.

ModZ is Modz...Do what you want, find out the hard way!

Mac 26 steering wheel on Mac 19...also bow sprite and cutter rig....

Old Skool Neil · Dec 10, 2012

I don't see why New-2-22s can't have his boat the way he wants it and I agree he certainly did not deserve one particular response. I'm sure he was fully aware of the space trade off before asking the question and the weight of such a system is no different than an outboard engine. I didn't see any mention of racing in the original post so snappy helm response may not be an issue.

To the naysayers, why does Edson even offer a ready made kit??

kloudie1 · Dec 10, 2012

Not a naysayer, Neil, but this is what I found;
http://www.edsonmarine.com/support/wheel_conversion/index.php
which does show a Catalina 22 on the list of "Will Fit"..
They'd probably be happy to put one together ..

Old Skool Neil · Dec 10, 2012

Yes Kloudie, I'm aware of Edson's system. I mentioned it to show Edson didn't think the idea was all that $δ%#@.

kloudie1 · Dec 10, 2012

Yup.. I agree.. a few years back, it was not unusual to see boats like a Catalina 22 with one of those Edsons in it.. I wanted to put one on my Spirit 23, but quickly came to ther reallization that it would cost about 50% of the boat net worth !! Bought a bigger boat with the wheel as standard equipment..

bigpapaporsche · Dec 10, 2012

redhead78 said:
buy a bigger boat.... it come with a wheel...Red

There are few sailboat manufactures that offer the Edson Wheel Helm as an option on small sailboats. Fortunately we have one! its a 1995 Seaward 23 footer, with Edson Wheel Helm, Yanmar 10Hp Diesel, Marine Head, Dodger/Bimini. As you can see in the attached picture the cockpit's environment is greatly enhanced by the Wheel's pedestal, we think it really neat. All the engines controls are at your fingertips, for easier and safer operation, not to mention the improved visibility from the Helm seat, looking straight ahead etc. IMHO you should buy what you want. If however you can economy modify your boat, while adding to its resale, then that is a good way to go also.

sailpro1 · Dec 10, 2012

tiller vs sheel

New-2-22s said:
Hello all -

Does anyone out there have experience with converting a tiller control to a wheel style for 22s? First, I'm not sure it is completely advisable, as corrections and adjustments (especially in an emergent situation) will be slower. However, the radius the tiller sweeps out of the cockpit has been an inconvenience in situations where there are 3-4 tall crew members aboard. Additionally, I feel that if done right this may be a cheaper alternative to an autopilot for single handing.

Attached I've included two proposed designs. Both would be rear facing steering wheels, one is a pulley approach, the other a double u joint. I think there are some distinct disadvantages to the double u joint design.

Also the wheel conversion would require a kick-up rudder (as now I install/remove the rudder/tiller assembly with each sail and the more permanent wheel setup would make removal a chore) - so if anyone near the Annapolis/Baltimore area has a lead on a used kick-up 22 rudder, that would be great.

On a 22' I suggest keeping the tiller, and perhaps invest in a Simrad Tp 10 autopilot. The benefit of a wheel is minimal on thiis size boat.

bigpapaporsche · Dec 10, 2012

I forgot to mention that we recently added Edson's remote mount fixture, so we can easily remove the wheel, to temporarily mount it on the stern rail to gain more room in the cockpit, while we are either at the dock or anchor. Also, note the Teak Cockpit Table I made with the Compass Rose Inlay.

philwsailz · Dec 10, 2012

New-2-22s said:
Hello all -

Does anyone out there have experience with converting a tiller control to a wheel style for 22s? First, I'm not sure it is completely advisable, as corrections and adjustments (especially in an emergent situation) will be slower. However, the radius the tiller sweeps out of the cockpit has been an inconvenience in situations where there are 3-4 tall crew members aboard. Additionally, I feel that if done right this may be a cheaper alternative to an autopilot for single handing.

Attached I've included two proposed designs. Both would be rear facing steering wheels, one is a pulley approach, the other a double u joint. I think there are some distinct disadvantages to the double u joint design.

Also the wheel conversion would require a kick-up rudder (as now I install/remove the rudder/tiller assembly with each sail and the more permanent wheel setup would make removal a chore) - so if anyone near the Annapolis/Baltimore area has a lead on a used kick-up 22 rudder, that would be great.

Welcome to the forums!

I applaud your curiosity and desire to improve upon things. I am a big guy, 6'3" 260 and personally appreciate the fact that a C22 cockpit can be kinda crowded for more than two people!!!

Of your two options, if you chose to pursue, the cable system is going to be easier to install, more forgiving in regards to critical angles, and easier to manage from a mechanical advantage standpoint. Having the wheel behind you is no big deal and it is easy to change how the wheel works by simply considering that the cables wound on the top-side of the pulley will act exactly backwards when compared to if they were wound where they exited the bottom of the pullley. Pull-pull helms are all over Craigslist and e-bay of you go look for a vintage outboard boat helm. they usually come complete with a bearing assembly that mounts to the "dash" and a pulley as well: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-cab..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item3ccd01f88a&vxp=mtr

I would not pursue the U-joint option. It is a complex installation and it will be a bear to sail, primarily due to the fact it is just like a tiller in terms of force... Follow me: There is no mechanical advantage provided, as the input to the tiller, (assuming the joints are lossless, and they aren't) is 1:1. If you had a 10" wheel you would be in effect pushing on a 5" long tiller to maintain control over the rudder...

SO.... To me, you present one good option and one bad option.

Now, there are ways to improve your current situation, at least as it relates to cockpit space. I like to try to use short tillers. Put simply they take up less room. It takes some setup changes to employ them comfortably though.

WEATHER HELM: the shorter the tiller, the more weather helm will affect the input force required to hold a course. There are three things I know of you can do to ease the force of weather helm. 1. Add area to the leading edge of the rudder. This is either done in the shop with fiberglass and itchiness, or by spending money on an Idasailor or similar balanced blade. 2. Crank up your keel some, (as shared earlier) to bring the underbody's center of effort/resistance aft. This is free financially, but raises the keel and lowers the righting moment of the keel. 3. Rake your sailplan forward so that is is closer to being over the center of effort/resistance of the boat's underbody. This is the total freebie to me personally as I am more a cruiser than a racer and the slight reduction in performance is worth the trade-off compared to the comfort gained. On a previously owned 26' boat I had, I was able to comfortably sail her with an 18" tiller...
A WORD OF CAUTION: IF you fall off the boat, (IF) and you have removed all weather helm from the boat, she will keep sailing basically to the horizon or into the ground, whichever comes first... It is for that point that weather helm is desireable to a degree. If you are solo and go MOB, the boat with some weather helm will eventually round up and stall in irons, and with luck you can swim to the boat and, (hopefully) climb back aboard.

SO, after having written this long-winded treatsy based on my personal experience, I think you have two options. Go with the pull-pull cable system as you drew it and give it a go. It is fun to play and experiment and come up with new solutions that fit YOUR needs. If it doesn't work out you really have not done any permanent damage to the boat and you can back up to the original tiller arrangement and see about improving it for your needs. If making it shorter and reducing weather helm fits your needs, then you can pursue that next!!!!!

P.S. Know used tiller are a dime-a-dozen, most are split, but all you gotta do is glue them back, carefully and they can be made good as new. Leave your stock tiller as-is and shorten up a new one or a repaired one...

Chris Patterson · Dec 10, 2012

Now right there is a deal. Ped & wheel for 150? Somebody better jump that.

anthropic · Dec 10, 2012

Wheel versus Tiller

My used Mac 25 had a pedestal wheel when I bought it. It was frozen and useless. The welds on the rudder bracket were cracked and about to give way. The pedestal and wheel are now sitting in my backyard. I don't have the heart to throw it away, it looks so nice and pretty. As a lifelong solo-sailer I have sailed many miles on both tiller and wheel. Never had a tiller freeze or a weld crack. For ease of mind, on a small boat, I prefer a no maintenance tiller.

jzittere · Dec 10, 2012

Consider this too, the moment of inertia of longer and heavier boats is higher and that means is takes more human turning force to turn the boat. The steering wheel mechanics provide this mechanical advantage needed on larger boats. With a wheel in a small boat you may have too much advantage and it may be very easy to turn but difficult to hold a steady course.

Chris Patterson · Dec 10, 2012

Hell yeah you go man. I for one can't wait to see it done. In principle, it's little different than a pedestal anyway, the sheaves and cables are just routed differently.
See if you can contact C22 sailer on here, (down in Anderson, S.C.). I think he has got a couple of rudders.

UPSGUY · Dec 10, 2012

One thing to consider was the traveler had to be moves up to mid cockpit. Over all not enough room

Wheel Conversion

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