Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July

[Chris Patterson]

I'll keep my opinions about the vessel, and/or operator to myself.
However, after reading all of this,
I think I'm pretty sure of whose boat I would consider crewing with,
and whose that I would not....

 

[anchorclanker]

Like the Trayvon Martin case, this case will be tried by the media.

We dont need to wait for the media to convict the man, its happening right here and now.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm in complete agreement, tommays ...

The fact that they had 27 people on-board is only exceeded in foolishness by the CG not requiring passenger ratings on boats over 20' or as far as i can tell even require a stability # on pleasure boats

I can't think of any reason why a capacity rating shouldn't be required on all recreational boats, particularly the mass-produced boats such as this.

I think I saw that Maine Sail indicated that the owner's manual for the boat lists 10 as the recommended capacity. Just 10?!?!?!?. This seems to be an indictment of the boat to me. It tells me that the manufacturer designed a spacious death trap for unsuspecting customers. Just the fly-bridge seems to show seating for 6 in the brochure. What happens when the owner's manual is finally discarded after 20 or so years and multiple changes of ownership. The information regarding this very limited capacity is virtually unobtainable.

Think of it this way, boat owners in NY may not even be required to take a Boating Safety course ... but many of us here think that the "captain" should be all knowing. It seems that we want it both ways ... no regulations or special requirements for recreation boaters (keep the government off my back), but then we want "captains" to take on all responsibility (protect the manufacturers) for disasters that could be design related. BTW, manufacturers also don't want boaters to have to jump through hoops to demonstrate capability, either.

I look at it this way ... 27 lay people got on that boat because it was spacious enough to accomodate them. Granted, many were young kids, but NO adults questioned the safety of this action, possibly because the boat appeared to be large enough to handle the load.

The manufacturer does a stability calculation and concludes that only 10 people is the capacity (the number may be so low because the design of a top-heavy boat makes it both spacious and unstable). But the manufacturer hides the information in an owners manual that will be observed by very few people, once the novelty of the initial purchase has worn off. Why shouldn't a capacity plate be required so that it is plain for anybody to see what is safe and what is not? We're required to post a sign that tells us we can't dispose garbage in the water, for gosh sakes! What does it take to have a placard placed on a recreational boat (requiring no special training for operation) that warns us about our safety?

I don't think this skipper will be found at fault over capacity issues even though it is obvious that the boat was overloaded. I wonder what eventually became of the skipper in San Diego in a similar incident?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I also think that many of us are incredulous about how 27 people fit on a 34' boat. But we have sailboats, where the beam is limited, and our space is limited to a small, cave-like cabin. What with the mast and the boom and the need to have space to move, our boats are designed to be limiting in capacity.

This boat has 3 levels and a massive fore-deck. It's built like a sky-scraper in comparison to our boats. It really doesn't surprise me to see that eventually there will be an incident where 27 people can be mislead into thinking the boat is capable of the load. We are talking about apples and oranges when talking about the comfort of that many people on the boat. The link I posted earlier explains that many recreational boats can have space that far exceeds the safe capacity (think power boats with multiple levels).

Most of us look at it from the perspective that a monohull sailboat has space limitations that probably make the safe capacity (think over-turning) a moot point. We can never put enough people on our boats to make them unstable because we simply don't have the room.

A catamaran owner might have to think about safe capacity in a different light than we do because it is more likely that a larger number of people could fit on the boat and affect a capsize in stinky conditions.

 

[UPSGUY]

Here is a picture of the same year and model boat.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Scott, I just looked at a Starwind 27 like you have on this site in the classifieds. By gosh, I think you could put at least 6 folks on the bow, 6 on each side, (That's 12 for the sides) another 8 in the cockpit and at least 10 down below. That's 36 folks on your boat...
Jack

I will hope that either BOATUS, a major yacht manufacturer, or reality show, will recreate this, film it, and publish it.

I think everyone on one side is enough to put it over, but that is only what I think, not what we know.

 

[Ross]

Have you seen the floating piers in California capsize when the seals climb on to the point of overload?

 

[Stu Jackson]

It was the unforeseen that took them out.

If the MANUAL for the boat limited the # of people on board, this statement is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I can't think of any reason why a capacity rating shouldn't be required on all recreational boats, particularly the mass-produced boats such as this.

If it's in the MANUAL what more do you need? No discussion of common sense would even begin to deal with this.

The same folks who demand limited government are the ones who seem to cry wolf unnecessarily.

It's ALREADY in writing, isn't it?

 

[higgs]

27 people on a 34 footer?

 

[Maine Sail]

27 people on a 34 footer?

Yes they stuffed it like a "clown boat"....

BTW it took me all of 30 seconds to find the 10 person capacity ratings for a Silverton 34 on the Silverton web site. It is PAGE #1 of the manual..

Anyone even considering half that many folks on-board should have taken the same 30 seconds before doing what they did and killing three innocent children.

This case is soooo grossly negligent that it is not even worth debating. A boat rated for 10 people and he takes 27 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also find it disgusting, if the media reports are true, that his first instinct was to blame a "rogue wave".... C'mon a little responsibility for ones actions would be nice... Or, just do it the American way and blame the USCG (no placard required), the boat builder (must be a fualty boat to tip over with only 27) or rogue waves (those mysterious silent killers).... Anyone but the person who did the grossly stupid act is surely more at fault than the actual perpetrator..

 

[Scott T-Bird]

When the boat has had multiple owners ...

If it's in the MANUAL what more do you need? No discussion of commeon sense would ev en begin to deal with this.

I don't think many people keep the manual on hand. Besides, in this case, the operator wasn't the owner so it is even more unlikely that the information in the manual would have been known. What is the reason for so much secrecy when it comes to boat capacity?

If a placard was required, a lay person could more easily read the placard and come to their own conclusion whether or not to ride on the boat. Who knows, maybe one of the parents of a victim might have read a capacity plate and decided to stay ashore.

I can't think of any reason why a capacity plate shouldn't be required, can you?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott, WADR, RTFM? Why does that NOT work? Please, tell me.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Actually MS, I think the manufacturer has designed a grossly un-stable boat if the capacity for such a large boat is only 10. That's just my opinion, but it appears that most of the pontoon boats I see on the lake are far more stable than this craft. I think if I read this kind of limitation, I would be discouraged from purchasing the boat. I bet there aren't any sales people who advertise this significant limitation and indication of instability.

If we expect operators to be equally competent, then why aren't there much stricter licensing requirements? I think we can't have it both ways ... if we don't want stricter requirements for operator licensing then we can't expect a very uniform level of competency. Manufacturers have to take greater responsibility. If they are going to design multi-level palaces on the water, then they should make sure people are aware of the stability limitations. These boats obviously have way more space than they are stable for. It's a design flaw that they should be responsible for warning people about.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

WADR, RTFM doesn't compute, LOL ... ???

 

[Sail123]

Perspective:

Here is my Clipper Marine 32 center cockpit ketch in my slip, and my neighbor coming back in with his Silverton. In fairness, I do not know the length of his boat, and it is two slips behind mine, that makes it look smaller. You can see people on my neighbors boat. Would you suggest two dozen people on that boat, plus three?

 

[Steve W]

We sail out of Oyster Bay and have often left our mooring to motor out to the point off of the Dolan's home to watch those fireworks. It's a professional show (they bring in a 100' barge for the show and I think it's the same company that does the Macy's show). It always attracts 100's of boats who anchor right off his home to watch the show. The problem at the end of the show is that there's all these boats screaming out of there with the resulting wakes from the speedboats and powerboats creates a rough bouncy bit of water for about a half hour or longer after the show.

"rogue wave" my a**. Just a typical piece of water with hundreds of power boats creating wakes and a very confused bit of water.

This was a tragic, tragic episode and my heart goes out to the families, including the skipper of the boat, who lost a child. No parent should ever lose a child. But having said that, that skipper should be indicted for criminally negligent homicide! Nothing will hurt him as much as the loss of his child, but he should still pay the price for causing the loss of those other two kids.

I'm sorry but there's no way in hell you put 27 people on that size boat which is top-heavy in the first place! First of all, if you look at the picture of the identical model boat which Maine Sail posted, they had to have been crammed together standing up in order to fit onboard in the first place! I read one quote from a professional captain who basically said that loading that many people on board it was a miracle the boat didn't capsize at the dock!!!

Losing those children was a complete and utter devasting tragedy, but the reality is that this was a COMPLETLY AVOIDABLE TRAGEDY caused by the complete disregard of common sense.

Forgive my rant but when children are lost due to adult stupidity (my opinion!) my blood boils!

 

[anchorclanker]

I aint saying the boat wasnt overloaded, I just aint into no witch hunt and ill wait for more expert opinion, AFTER we have all the facts and evidence. Christ alive man, they havent even recovered the damned boat yet, or buried the dead, and some of you are ready to hang the man. Part of the celebrations we just celebrated, and what this wreck was a part of, included a fair trial, by a jury of our peers, something that was not allowed our fellow Patriots who died giving us this country. If ya wanna wave the Flag, at least try to accept some of the freedoms it represents. If the man is guilty, it will come out in the wash. We really dont need to keep having all these rush to judgment debates.

 

[UPSGUY]

If the MANUAL for the boat limited the # of people on board, this statement is absolutely ridiculous.

Do you have the manual for a 28 year old boat? It has been clearly stated that Silverton did not give a passenger capacity on this year and model.
Am I defending him... No. I'm stating that the circumstances that caused the boat to roll where unforeseen.
It's also been commented on about the "Rouge Wave Theory". When I first heard this I diss missed it thinking he's talking about a monster wave out of nowhere. Thinking about it further, what would you call a 5-6 wave that comes out of the dark on water that averages at most 1' waves?
It was dark, there are no lights around. The moon was clouded over. The boat was overloaded and it had just poured down rain. These are conditions I try like hell to avoid. These people where not more than a few miles from there home port and within 1000' of land. I can see where he could think he'd be ok. Wrong but ok.

 

[Maine Sail]

Do you have the manual for a 28 year old boat? It has been clearly stated that Silverton did not give a passenger capacity on this year and model.
Am I defending him... No. I'm stating that the circumstances that caused the boat to roll where unforeseen.

Sorry but 27 people on a 34 footer is NOT an "unforeseen incident"..... It is an egregious level of gross negligence..

And YES I do have the manual for our 33 year old boat both on-board and in .pdf format on all my computers and never put more than 8 people on our 36 footer...

One would hope that folks who've been smart enough to be able to afford a boat that can use $1000.00 in fuel per weekend might have some level of seaman like competency. The level of competency displayed in this incident registers as less than zero and IMO is an insult and black mark on the entire boating community at large...