Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July

[tommays]

In all reality the water police have been out in THIS area full force as they just started a big BWI campaign


The area they left from Huntington Harbor would have taken them right by the

Suffolk Police boats TWO BIG ONES

Huntington Harbor harbor master

Lloyd harbor harbor master

THE COAST GUARD STATION yes the big one

AND THEN

All the police boats in Oyster Bay to keep order during the fireworks

And there are a few i missed

 

[Scott T-Bird]

An authoritive report ...

I agree that there will be some authority at some point who will issue an opinion. I just don't see how the skipper will be found at fault over a capacity issue when there doesn't appear to be a limit to apply when a boat's capacity is seemingly undefined.

It still makes me wonder why there is a published "rule-of-thumb" calculation that appears to be universally rejected by most here who are offering their opinion. I'm not defending it, I'm just stating that it is "there" and still being taught in Boating Safety courses by the US Coast Guard Auxillary.

With regard to the issue regarding life-jackets, I think that a prosecutor would have to prove that there is a link between the drownings and the absense of enough life jackets in order to bring a criminal charge. The victims appear to have drowned in the cabin so there may not be a link. (If they escaped the cabin and drowned because they couldn't swim and didn't have a life jacket, that could be an inescapable link). Could they issue him a ticket for not having enough life jackets on board? Yes ... but that seems like a pretty futile gesture under the circumstance.

Ross, I fail to see either one of your points ... but I'm sure you'll have something even snappier to say for me to ponder!

 

[Dunham]

Simply stupid! Captain, be a responsible boater, always!

 

[Tim R.]

...
With regard to the issue regarding life-jackets, I think that a prosecutor would have to prove that there is a link between the drownings and the absense of enough life jackets in order to bring a criminal charge. The victims appear to have drowned in the cabin so there may not be a link. (If they escaped the cabin and drowned because they couldn't swim and didn't have a life jacket, that could be an inescapable link). Could they issue him a ticket for not having enough life jackets on board? Yes ... but that seems like a pretty futile gesture under the circumstance...

Scott, I agree with you here but an attorney in a civil case could easily use this information to establish the idea that the skipper was irresponsible. Civil cases have much more leeway when presenting evidence and are not subject to reasonable doubt. You have seen a majority here at SBO that would blame the captain for the deaths. I am sure a good attorney in a civil case could convince non-boaters of the same.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm not so sure ...

Scott, I agree with you here but an attorney in a civil case could easily use this information to establish the idea that the skipper was irresponsible. Civil cases have much more leeway when presenting evidence and are not subject to reasonable doubt. You have seen a majority here at SBO that would blame the captain for the deaths. I am sure a good attorney in a civil case could convince non-boaters of the same.

I think that we have a tendency to puff out our chests and proclaim that we would never be this idiotic. And then there is the factor that this is the skipper of a power boat ... need I say more? We don't even come close to representing the general populace (they don't have these biases).

When presenting this case to the general public, how easy would it be to portray the skipper as a victim who is also disraught over losing the life of loved ones? A luxury boat manufacturer, those evil capitalists who care nothing for safety, is a much more attractive target.

In a criminal case, think how difficult it was to convict Casey Anthony. In a civil case, who has the money? ... The boat manufacturer or the skipper?

 

[Anonymous 121765]

From what I've read, and there are many crazy statements, I don't believe it was a large wake, I think that's bull. What's sad is that 3 kids died and we may never know what REALLY happened.

I didn't see other boats reporting any big waves, & it's reported alot of boats were nearby. It could have been a 4 foot boat wake at just the right angle with people at the worst locations.

Shit like this really makes me mad. Stupidity can be a killer.

CR

 

[HukilauMike]

I'll go back to the Boating Safety courses taught by US Coast Guard Auxillary. The capacity for this boat would seem to be 31 people if it was new ... 28 people if it was older.

Scott: what exactly is this formula? I would be very interested to know how application of any formula comes up with those capacity numbers for a boat this size. I took a look at pictures of this model boat, and my first reaction was "how would you even fit 27 people on her?" Even if you could fit that many people aboard, I am struggling to understand how you could move about enough to even dock or undock the boat, let alone respond to an emergency situation. Unless the pictures I have seen misrepresent the boat in question, I just don't see how any skipper in their right mind takes that many people aboard.

I have read that all of the victims were somehow related to each other, and that one of the children was the skipper's. My heart goes out to the families of all of them. I am just sick about this.

 

[Maine Sail]

I just don't see how any skipper in their right mind takes that many people aboard.

The answer is NO skipper "in their right mind" takes 27 people on a 34' Silverton... Pretty simple stuff.

This guys was NOT an "experienced" skipper he was a very lucky skipper to have survived as long as he had before killing himself or others, which sadly did just happen.

But yeah as always in the US it is always somebody else's fault, the boat builder, the USCG etc. etc. but never the fault of the person making the DUMB decision...

Sorry but there is no excusable defense for this level of sheer stupidity. That is likely well over 4000 pounds of humans on a boat displacing roughly 12,000 pounds.... This does not even take into account food, beer, personal items etc.. They likely added close to 5000 pounds of weight to that boat and everyone is "shocked" that it flipped.......

I guess I need a placard on my blow torch to not test its output with my bare hand because that is about the same level of stupidity as 27 people on a 34' Silverton....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Finally, some logic and sanity.

The answer is NO skipper "in their right mind" takes 27 people on a 34' Silverton... Pretty simple stuff.

This guys was NOT an "experienced" skipper he was a very lucky skipper to have survived as long as he had before killing himself or others, which sadly did just happen.

But yeah as always in the US it is always somebody else's fault, the boat builder, the USCG etc. etc. but never the fault of the person making the DUMB decision...

Sorry but there is no excusable defense for this level of sheer stupidity. That is likely well over 4000 pounds of humans on a boat displacing roughly 12,000 pounds.... This does not even take into account food, beer, personal items etc.. They likely added close to 5000 pounds of weight to that boat and everyone is "shocked" that it flipped.......

I guess I need a placard on my blow torch to not test its output with my bare hand because that is about the same level of stupidity as 27 people on a 34' Silverton....

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The capacity formula has been around for a long time, but it does currently qualify that it only applies to small boats under 20'. I think this was modified recently because only a few years ago, the formula was utilized for larger boats, if I'm not mistaken. Here is a link that has a pretty good discussion about the topic.

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/BoatCapacityVSAvailableSeating.pdf

What strikes me is that it seems to be virtually impossible to find a discussion about the capacity of recreational boats of this size. This link openly says that recreation boats in this catagory easily have the space to accomodate far more people than the capacity. If you look at the plan of this boat, you can see that there is space. The fly-bridge can seat 6, the forward deck could easily accomodate 10, the sleeping space advertises 6 so figure the interior could accomodate 10, and the rear deck another 6? It's not impossible to see that 30+ people could crowd into the boat. Now figure that at least 1/3 are small children and there you have it. No problem putting the people on-board from a space standpoint for a leisure trip to watch the fireworks on a calm night.

These boats are built tall and wide with a lot of space to entice people to do exactly that - fill it up with friends and family.

For those of you who are so definitive about what is over-loaded .... then tell us. Exactly what IS the capacity of this boat?

Frankly, it amazes me that boat manufacturers are allowed to sell boats without being required to define a safe capacity - which it appears they are able to do. The article I posted talks about the capacity being a function of stability calculations which the boat builder is responsible for performing. Which laymen among us can decipher these formulas to understand the capacity? If the manufacturer is required to determine the stability when designing the boat, why isn't the manufacterer required to disclose the information?

It amazes me that so many people can be the judge and jury in this case without being able to even define the capacity of the boat in question. It makes me wonder ... where is logic and sanity.

I suspect that there will be no authority that condemns this man for over-loading the boat because there is simply no regulation or capacity rule that will be applied to this case. So far, it's merely speculation and innuendo. If the manufacturer has stability calculations that show the boat is unstable with this load, then they should certainly be liable for not disclosing it.

 

[Bob J.]

I'm coming in on the tail end of this discussion so please forgive me.

I've been on many 34' Silvertons during my life & can attest to the fact that these boats were never meant to carry 27 people. Maybe 10-12 folks for a joy ride & that would be pushing it.

I feel sorry for those who's lives were lost, sorry for those responsible & that responsiblity does not just lay on the skipper.

This has to be the one of the biggest WTF moments in NE boating history

 

[Maine Sail]

If you look at the plan of this boat, you can see that there is space. The fly-bridge can seat 6, the forward deck could easily accomodate 10, the sleeping space advertises 6 so figure the interior could accomodate 10, and the rear deck another 6? It's not impossible to see that 30+ people could crowd into the boat.

Hey a drill bit fits perfectly into my ear and a jack hammer in my mouth. So should I stick a drill in my ear and a jack hammer in my mouth and see what happens..... I mean the instructions don't specifically say not to do that, and they "fit"..

Now figure that at least 1/3 are small children and there you have it. No problem putting the people on-board from a space standpoint for a leisure trip to watch the fireworks on a calm night.

And using the logic of "how many clowns can we fit into a VW Bug" yep there is technically "space" for them to be smooshed in there but it is NOT SAFE and NO SANE or EXPERIENCED skipper would or should ever do that. But hey there's no placard so the guy's off the hook...?

I've been on a Silverton 34, and a Mainship 34 and a Luhrs 34 and many other boats of that style, in that size range, and 27 people is simply INSANE, STUPID and DANGEROUS, as we found out, and now three CHILDREN are dead because of this insanity.....:cussing:

 

[jackhartjr]

Scott, I just looked at a Starwind 27 like you have on this site in the classifieds. By gosh, I think you could put at least 6 folks on the bow, 6 on each side, (That's 12 for the sides) another 8 in the cockpit and at least 10 down below. That's 36 folks on your boat...
Jack

 

[weinie]

I was sailing about 10 miles from where this accident happened this afternoon and some dimwit on a 27 sea ray whizzes right by me, planing at top speed. On the bow, were four for five kids, sitting with their feet dangling over the side while hanging on to the rails.

 

[higgs]

If you are a competent skipper you know that 27 people on a 34 footer is too many. what is the cutoff number. I don 't know, but 27 is OBVIOUSLY too many - like DUH! I have a 34 footer blue water boat and I know that 27 si WAY too many and would seriously alter the handling characterstics. I am amazed anyone could try to justify this passenger load. I once took out 10 in flat water/very light air and was very concerned about the effect they would have on my boat. I was pushing the envelope on that day.

 

[Ross]

If my boat had movable ballast and if I had to carry 27 people at an average weight of 180 pounds each I could load 20 of them in the bilge in place of the ballast and be quite alright. Now I will admit that they might not find the accommodations first class but they could be quite sure that the boat wasn't going to capsize.

 

[weinie]

At my marina today I noticed a very large motor yacht I've never seen before named Dreamer. I checked marinetraffic.com to find out more about it. Guess what... according to the AIS records, this boat was at the location and time when the Silverton capsized.

Could this be the source of the "rogue wave"?

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?zoom=9&oldmmsi=538070685&olddate=7/5/2012 12:59:00 AM (zoom in on the track)

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=538070685

 

[higgs]

It ain't the fault of another boat. 27 people on a 34 footer? C'mon. Get real.

 

[SEMIJim]

I've been on a Silverton 34, and a Mainship 34 and a Luhrs 34 and many other boats of that style, in that size range, and 27 people is simply INSANE, STUPID and DANGEROUS, as we found out, and now three CHILDREN are dead because of this insanity.....:cussing:

I've never been on any of those, but I've been on smaller, similarly-designed powerboats, and I've seen plenty like them, both larger and smaller, go by us. These boats strike me as top-heavy and unstable. I cannot imagine putting more than a dozen people on a 35-footer like that, max, much less 27 adults and children.

My rule is: Whatever the capacity plate states (if one exists), however many can fit aboard such that everybody can be seated comfortably and can move about freely, or what my judgement tells me is reasonable--whichever is less.

I cannot say for sure, as I'm neither an expert in this area nor was I there, but I suspect that boat may have been overloaded. Possibly badly overloaded.

What a tragic end to what should have been a good friends and family get-together

Jim

 

[anchorclanker]

Without a statement from the manufacturer, it will be up to the coast guard to determine the capacity of the boat, as well as determining the cause of the accident. It would be refreshing to see if everyone can put down their torches and pitchforks long enough to allow that to happen.