I always told my customers to respect the water and generally there are no mishaps. It is sad when any lives are lost but the boat can only hold so much weight and the captian ignored that. Yes he has a daughter who was killed by his mistake and he is suffering for it but will probably serve time as a result. It will be interesting if he was drinking at the time.
Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July
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Guys,
Here's a very good indicator, from the actual MANUFACTURER, on the overloading.
The Silverton Owner's Manual for the later 34C Convertible, which has a significantly heavier displacement, 17,400 vs. 12,500, and is a significantly larger 34 footer than the 34 from the 80's which flipped is:
Silverton 34C Specifications
Overall Length - 37’ - 7.25”
Length at Waterline - 30’ - .375”
Beam - 13’ - 9.625”
Beam - Waterline - 12’ - 3”
Draft (Maximum) - 3’ - 3”
Displacement (dry) - 17,441 lbs.
Displacement (full fl uids) - 20,060 lbs.
Transom Deadrise - 12.5 degrees
Fuel Capacity - 286 Gallons
Fresh Water Capacity - 94 Gallons
Waste Water Capacity - 37 Gallons
Water Heater Capacity - 10.5 Gallons
Average Headroom - 6’ - 6”
Maximum Recommended Number of Persons - 10
Maximum Recommended Load - 2,227 lbs.
This "skipper" had this boat wayyyyyyyyyyyy over loaded by a factor of nearly 3X...
Here's the link to the Owner's Manual
Here's a very good indicator, from the actual MANUFACTURER, on the overloading.
The Silverton Owner's Manual for the later 34C Convertible, which has a significantly heavier displacement, 17,400 vs. 12,500, and is a significantly larger 34 footer than the 34 from the 80's which flipped is:
Silverton 34C Specifications
Overall Length - 37’ - 7.25”
Length at Waterline - 30’ - .375”
Beam - 13’ - 9.625”
Beam - Waterline - 12’ - 3”
Draft (Maximum) - 3’ - 3”
Displacement (dry) - 17,441 lbs.
Displacement (full fl uids) - 20,060 lbs.
Transom Deadrise - 12.5 degrees
Fuel Capacity - 286 Gallons
Fresh Water Capacity - 94 Gallons
Waste Water Capacity - 37 Gallons
Water Heater Capacity - 10.5 Gallons
Average Headroom - 6’ - 6”
Maximum Recommended Number of Persons - 10
Maximum Recommended Load - 2,227 lbs.
This "skipper" had this boat wayyyyyyyyyyyy over loaded by a factor of nearly 3X...
Here's the link to the Owner's Manual
"Phil Cusumano, a Boston-based safety instructor and yacht captain with 35 years of experience, said there is no question the boat was badly overloaded. He said he would limit a vessel of that size to six adults. Other boating sites suggested a maximum of 15 passengers.
"Twenty-seven is just crazy," Cusumano said. "I wouldn't dream of doing that. I wouldn't do it at the dock, much less take it out on the water. It would tip over with the first turn.""
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/experts_overcrowding_to_blame.html
In the jurisdiction were this happened they have done the most aggressive prosecution of DWI crimes and items of this nature and have been the FEW places to get a murder conviction form a DWI
That being said in talking to my SON the ADA its going to tough to get beyond a misdemeanor charge without breaking new ground
Its also very unlikely the Police/DA are letting lose much of the info they have gathered and you can expect a good amount of quite time until they they recover the boat and have all there facts
That being said in talking to my SON the ADA its going to tough to get beyond a misdemeanor charge without breaking new ground
Its also very unlikely the Police/DA are letting lose much of the info they have gathered and you can expect a good amount of quite time until they they recover the boat and have all there facts
Oh, I don't know about that. Not to venture off topic and hit on a more controversial one,but Kathleen Rice (the DA) has no qualms about targeting legitimate businesses (gun shops) on trumped up charges and getting murder convictions for fatal DWI cases if she thinks it will gain her public support and get her reelected. If there is a large public outcry, I have no doubt she will try her hardest to throw whatever charges she can at this guy and see what sticks, though the fact that this guy lost his own child will, I'm sure, earn his some sympathy with the public.
Like the Trayvon Martin case, this case will be tried by the media.
I don't think he did, the last news report I heard said neice and nephew, but didn't mention one of the dead being his own child.
Kevin Treanor was the owner, whose daughter Harley was killed. His brother-in-law Sal was the "operator".
However, NY NAV law reads:
§ 48. Negligence in use or operation of vessel attributable to owner.
1. Every owner of a vessel used or operated upon the navigable waters of
the state or any tidewaters bordering on or lying within the boundaries
of Nassau and Suffolk counties, shall be liable and responsible for
death or injuries to person or property resulting from negligence in the
use or operation of such vessel, in the business of such owner, or
otherwise, by any person using or operating the same with the
permission, express or implied, of such owner.
However, NY NAV law reads:
§ 48. Negligence in use or operation of vessel attributable to owner.
1. Every owner of a vessel used or operated upon the navigable waters of
the state or any tidewaters bordering on or lying within the boundaries
of Nassau and Suffolk counties, shall be liable and responsible for
death or injuries to person or property resulting from negligence in the
use or operation of such vessel, in the business of such owner, or
otherwise, by any person using or operating the same with the
permission, express or implied, of such owner.
The fact that they had 27 people on-board is only exceeded in foolishness by the CG not requiring passenger ratings on boats over 20' or as far as i can tell even require a stability # on pleasure boats
ahh, that clears it up...
IMO, if the owner was onboard, or aware of the # of people onboard, he unquestionably is at fault for failing to exercise safe judgment.
Full disclosure, I also took my boat out for a short harbor cruise a little over loaded on Tuesday night (5 girls, 3 guys, average weight around 165, but never left the harbor. we went half way out and anchored, then dinghy'd to a little island for wine and cheese at sunset). I also made sure to have someone bring 4 extra life jackets (for 10 total), and explained to people before leaving the dock how to keep the weight distributed to ensure the boat was stable. With the extra people onboard with their weight properly distributed, the powerboat wakes actually affected us less than normal. I would never have left the harbor or attempted to raise sails with that many people on my boat.
In contrast to the Silverton:
Me: 27', 5000lb displacement
Silverton: 34', 12000lb displacement
People / foot of boat:
Me: 8/27 (3.375 feet per person)
Silverton: 27/34 (1.26 feet per person)
People / Displacement of boat:
Me: 8/5000 (625lbs displacement per person)
Silverton: 27/12000 (444lbs displacement per person)
I had roughly 2 extra feet of boat per person and 200lbs more of boat displacement per person than the Silverton (and much of my weight is in a lead keel 3 1/2 feet under water, his is the engines near the waterline), and I felt overloaded to the point where I would never even consider leaving the harbor for safety reasons.
No-one can argue this boat was not dangerously overloaded and an accident waiting to happen, and that's before you move some people up to the flying bridge!
IMO, if the owner was onboard, or aware of the # of people onboard, he unquestionably is at fault for failing to exercise safe judgment.
Full disclosure, I also took my boat out for a short harbor cruise a little over loaded on Tuesday night (5 girls, 3 guys, average weight around 165, but never left the harbor. we went half way out and anchored, then dinghy'd to a little island for wine and cheese at sunset). I also made sure to have someone bring 4 extra life jackets (for 10 total), and explained to people before leaving the dock how to keep the weight distributed to ensure the boat was stable. With the extra people onboard with their weight properly distributed, the powerboat wakes actually affected us less than normal. I would never have left the harbor or attempted to raise sails with that many people on my boat.
In contrast to the Silverton:
Me: 27', 5000lb displacement
Silverton: 34', 12000lb displacement
People / foot of boat:
Me: 8/27 (3.375 feet per person)
Silverton: 27/34 (1.26 feet per person)
People / Displacement of boat:
Me: 8/5000 (625lbs displacement per person)
Silverton: 27/12000 (444lbs displacement per person)
I had roughly 2 extra feet of boat per person and 200lbs more of boat displacement per person than the Silverton (and much of my weight is in a lead keel 3 1/2 feet under water, his is the engines near the waterline), and I felt overloaded to the point where I would never even consider leaving the harbor for safety reasons.
No-one can argue this boat was not dangerously overloaded and an accident waiting to happen, and that's before you move some people up to the flying bridge!
Don't forget people is not a steady load. They move around. The boat may not be evenly loaded. In any case, 27 is stupidly overloaded. Besides sailboats were designed for much higher righting capability. These kind of planning hull motor boat is not.
Had this vessel been loaded with sand bags starting below the water line the load would have been entirely acceptable. But sand bags are compact and don't move around and climb up to the bridge. The center of gravity was well above anything the designer could have planned .
They thought they would be ok. Round trip this was less than ten miles. It was the unforeseen that took them out. Locals know that this inlet gets really choppy when there is a lot of traffic. Wednesday night there was lots of boats all moving at once in the dark.
I'm not excusing the decision to overload the boat. But I don't think most people realize how bad that inlet gets when there is a lot of traffic. 5'-6' waves are not impossible if you get a few big boats rolling through. Add to that the incoming tide and it would be difficult during the day on a properly loaded boat.
The Long Island Sound is often referred to as a big bath tub. Casual boaters take it for granted that the waters will always be flat and there is always help available. The tendency to bend the rules of safe boating is perpetuated by the illusion that the nanny state (harbor patrol CG Bay Constable) will always be there to save the day.
It is a pet peeve of mine that we refer to other boaters as "Captain or Skipper". Just because someone is at the helm doesn't mean they have a clue as to what they are doing. I am captain of my boat because I am responsible for it and my passengers safety. But by no means do I have the experience or training that are implied by that title.
The helmsman in this case was the more experienced boater than the owner. The owner of the boat chose him to be in command as he had more time driving larger boats than the owner himself. This shows me that there was some consideration of safety before this trip started.
The final outcome of all this is that three young children died. My children are all within a year of the ones that died and they are asking me what happened. As a parent I can't imagine how this family feels right now as they bury there kids.
I think the name calling should stop. It adds nothing to the conversation and minimizes what happened. On a bad day anyone of us could be facing a tragedy perpetuated by bad judgment.
I'm not excusing the decision to overload the boat. But I don't think most people realize how bad that inlet gets when there is a lot of traffic. 5'-6' waves are not impossible if you get a few big boats rolling through. Add to that the incoming tide and it would be difficult during the day on a properly loaded boat.
The Long Island Sound is often referred to as a big bath tub. Casual boaters take it for granted that the waters will always be flat and there is always help available. The tendency to bend the rules of safe boating is perpetuated by the illusion that the nanny state (harbor patrol CG Bay Constable) will always be there to save the day.
It is a pet peeve of mine that we refer to other boaters as "Captain or Skipper". Just because someone is at the helm doesn't mean they have a clue as to what they are doing. I am captain of my boat because I am responsible for it and my passengers safety. But by no means do I have the experience or training that are implied by that title.
The helmsman in this case was the more experienced boater than the owner. The owner of the boat chose him to be in command as he had more time driving larger boats than the owner himself. This shows me that there was some consideration of safety before this trip started.
The final outcome of all this is that three young children died. My children are all within a year of the ones that died and they are asking me what happened. As a parent I can't imagine how this family feels right now as they bury there kids.
I think the name calling should stop. It adds nothing to the conversation and minimizes what happened. On a bad day anyone of us could be facing a tragedy perpetuated by bad judgment.
and unfortunately it will probably result in more laws and oversight all in the name of protecting the children.
People are dead. How do we advocate for actions that resulted in three deaths?Scott T-Bird said:
If there are 27 places to sleep ( berths) or 27 seats that is a legitimate capacity number.
I do think the witch hunt in all of this is a bit much. To me, the focus of this is the kids, and not the finger pointing.
Very sorry for kids.
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