Sailboat Capsizes In San Diego

[Scott T-Bird]

Dave, what is the capacity of your Hunter 26 and what specific limitations do you have that are not normal to a similarly sized sailboat with a fixed or swing keel?

I was reminded of something my dad once said after he bought the sail boat that I used as a kid. He actually bought it because my mom wanted a sail boat, but it always capsized way too easily for her and it wasn't possible to sit in the seats when the boat wasn't counterbalanced by the wind. He said that he should have known better when the dealer showed him how easily the boat can be righted after a capsize!

 

[KD3PC]

Sorry Scott, you may want to rephrase:
"Macgregor is irresponsible for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner."

I don't think that is what you are trying to say...




You also wrote "but they were deceived by the appearance and claims of the boat and boat manufacturer, respectively." and I would submit that the "innocent people" were not deceived and never gave a thought to your statement as they boarded.

Given all the news about overweight/obese people and how both the airlines and the boat industries have grossly miscalculated weight per unit body allowed...I still submit that it is the attendees responsibility to assess the condition, safety, stability of this excursion as well as any other, i.e. amusement park ride, canoe, motorcycle, etc.

That this happened in the VERY highly regulated state of CA, simply proves that all the regulations/rules/inspections/etc in the world did not prevent this accident, so calling for more labels, cutouts, placards, whatever just lines the pockets of the lawyers and politicians that vote for such stupid things.

It is sad that people die, but it is sad that that happens every day. And more rules regulations have not helped in any case.

It is still the persons fault, not MacGregor

 

[Scott T-Bird]

kd, why didn't I intend to say what I said?

Besides the person capacity, the weight limit is just 960 pounds - 160 pounds per person. I am a normal sized male, 6' tall and muscular, without much fat, and I count for 1.25 people in their equation.

Yes, I still believe that in light of the way Macgregors are portrayed, they are deceptively unstable in a way that is not reasonable for the appearance of the boat. It's just my opinion but I think that maybe a code should be written to address this issue and Macgregor should not be allowed to get away with making deceptively unstable boats.

 

[Dave D]

Dave, what is the capacity of your Hunter 26 and what specific limitations do you have that are not normal to a similarly sized sailboat with a fixed or swing keel?

well, I don't recall Scott and my present economic situation has come between me and the ownership of my 26, so I don't have any paperwork handy. What's your point? I feel like the 26 is REASONABLY similar to the Mac as far as room in the cockpit and below decks. That is why I posted that I would not be comfortable with, nor would I allow, 9 passengers on board her, and can't conceive of how any competent captain would. While she had room in the cockpit for 6 (albeit tight) and room below for another 6, I certainly wouldn't allow a total of twelve on her. I think my default would be: If I were out and a storm popped up, and I could not get to safe harbor due to time/distance or God forbid mechanical problems, how would I protect my 9 passengers? 9 people below decks? that doesn't sound safe either.

I think a larger issue is the general failure of "normal" people to fully understand the dangers inherent in most activities. Most activities can be performed within an acceptable range of risk, providing one takes into account the possible risks and mitigates them accordingly.

 

[KD3PC]

"Macgregor is irresponsible for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner."

You are saying that MacGregor is NOT responsible for producing......

from the web "irresponsible"
2. not capable of or qualified for responsibility, as due to age, circumstances, or a mental deficiency.
3. not responsible, answerable, or accountable to higher authority: irresponsible as a monarch.

Still want to say that? In my re-reading, it is clear that you are submitting that MacGregor IS responsible for making and marketing a massively dangerous boat...

Yes? or No?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Well Dave, you just prove my point ...

You are the owner of a boat and you are not even sure what the safe capacity is. Unless there is a prominently placed visual warning about capacity, it's reasonable for you to accept the formula of L x W/15 which is taught in safe boating courses. I'm not sure what L refers to so I use the LWL to be safe.

Now if you are uncomfortable with more than 6 people aboard and you generally practice that rule, then you are well within the safe capacity which you can reasonably rely upon which should be up around 12 according to a standardly accepted formula. So basically, you operate so far within a safe capacity that you don't even give it a thought because it never becomes an issue.

If you owned a Macgregor, you would have to give it much more serious consideration. Why should a Macgegor owner have to operate so close to the threshhold of safety on a normal basis (960 pound weight capacity) when you don't have to? Your boats are so similar in just about every visual sense.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

kd, what are you driving at? Am I not clear?

 

[Dave D]

I retract my earlier responses, the upward end of this rope is wet enough Gotta be MacGregor's fault.

 

[Dave D]

"Macgregor is irresponsible for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner."

You are saying that MacGregor is NOT responsible for producing......

Ah the shortcomings of written communication. I believe his point would be better read as:

"Macgregor is irresponsible in that they produce a boat that is deceptively advertised (blah,blah,blah)"

 

[KD3PC]

Scott

not clear to me when you say.."Macgregor is irresponsible for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner."


this translates to me that MacGregor "IS responsible for producing an accurately advertised boat that has an accurate appearance of safety"

or -

"Macgregor is irresponsible (NOT RESPONSIBLE) for producing a boat that is deceptively advertised and has a deceptive appearance of safety, when in fact, it shouldn't be used in this manner."

maybe it is me?

 

[Timo42]

Scott, Mac bashing is a popular sport on SA, and no one over there is claiming that the 26d is a deathtrap, used as it was intended, it is as safe as any other small boat.
You can't fix stupid. That formula is wrong for small sail boats, most people realise that, I don't need a placard to tell me how many people will fit on my boat, I use common sense, if you don't have that, than unless the state wraps you in bubble wrap and locks you in a padded room, you are going to hurt yourself. Stupidity should be painful, unforunately this idiot killed someone else instead of himself.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I think the trap here is that everybody is looking at a situation where the captain may be clearly at fault for a dangerous condition. I don't even know if there was some uncorrected defect on the boat that made the condition even more tenuous. I'm just astonished that the stated capacity of a Macgregor is so low and I think it is unreasonably low at that. Obviously it's just my opinion. Macgregor owners can obviously live with over-restrictive limitations. But, I think that their design is irresponsible, particularly in light of their advertising, and can lead unsuspecting people to dangerous situations. It's my opinion, I would think that I'm entitled to one since everybody else has them as well, stated or not.

BTW, it's apparent that when you bought your boat, and maybe even when you were shopping for a Macgregor, that nobody made a point of telling you the capacity. If it's so far off the norm, then wouldn't you think that is important?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott, you're close, but I wouldn't have ever put 10 people on my full keel Catalina 25.

As someone said, you can't fix stupid.

 

[Winkfish]

maybe it is me?

Yeah, it's you. You left out one (more commonly used) definition of "irresponsible" - reckless, careless, negligent, ...

 

[Scott T-Bird]

ah ... now I see the play on words. Irresponsible ... as in Macgregor negligently designs, produces and sells a boat that doesn't meet a reasonable standard of safety, in light of their advertising and target market.

 

[Ron20324]

Well Dave, you just prove my point ...Unless there is a prominently placed visual warning about capacity, it's reasonable for you to accept the formula of L x W/15 .))

If someoone does not have the brains to read the safety label of 6 people, I seriously doubt they will know LxW/15 anymore than they'd know 60DST.

 

[Timo42]

Scott, there is a popular small keelboat, Holder 20, if it gets knocked down with the hatchboards out, it fills and sinks, wouldn't you say that they are more dangerous than a Mac26, since it at least remains floating. There are lots of small boats with limited capacity, and then there are catamarans, they should require a "this side up" sticker at the very least

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Timo, why is the formula wrong. I never heard anyone else say it was. So now you are saying that a placard isn't necessary. If not, why does Macgregor rely upon it?

I think I agree, that a placard isn't necessary if a boat is designed to a reasonable standard of safety. It appears that a Macgregor is not, so a placard is unusually placed on the boat in warning. My argument is that it (a placard) isn't enough. the boat should be designed so that it doesn't capsize unexpectedly when more than 4 people are aboard, or when they are on the deck.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Well, Ron ... until somebody tells me differently I think it is safe to say that the capacity of Dave's Hunter is more in line with a reasonable standard, since a placard hasn't been placed.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Timo, I suppose you have a point except that if you did the calculation for a Holder, I wonder if the boat is in danger of suddenly capsizing when the number of people on board equaled the result of the equation. Being knocked down by wind, with the hatch boards open is a different circumstance.

I am not sure how the equation would work for a catamaran, but the ones I'm familiar with are less than 20' so the circumstance is different once again. Besides that, see my explanation for a canoe.