Sailboat Capsizes In San Diego

[Timo42]

"For boats over 26 feet, a general way to determine how many people you may safely carry is to use the following formula:
Boat length (in feet) multiplied by Beam (in feet) divided by: 15
As an example, if you have a 30 foot boat having a 10 foot beam, you can safely carry 20 average size adults (approximately 150 lbs each). Keep in mind that this formula is based upon having calm seas! You should always carry less weight and fewer people if you know you are in for rough weather."

1. Doesn't even apply, it's too short.
2. 20 people on a 30' sailboat? Tied to a dock maybe, or coming from Cuba.

A Viper has the same lwl as my V22, Would I go to Catalina on one? No, would I on my boat? Might even get over this weekend. May just go up to Paradise Cove though, depending on the weather.

 

[Dave D]

perhaps I should have said that the upwind portion of this rope has proven to be in an orientation which precludes being sufficiently urinated upon. Or perhaps that this particular dead horse is adequately tenderized.

 

[LuzSD]

Reasonable expectations?

Isn't the issue, that the Mac's target buyer is very likely the inexperienced family looking for a easy experience with options (ski or sail ?!@) as opposed to someone who's been sailing boats that you sit on as opposed to sitting in...Two very different buyers. We probably all agree that everyone should be responsible enough to not walk blindly into a dangerous situation but were these "guests" not given a reasonable impression that this adventure was well thought out and therefore safe. How many of us have handed our guest the manual of our boats before they step aboard. What would we think if they asked?


The quote below is from Sailing Anarchy's site and quotes from their manual. Until I read this, I was felt that the Charity and the captain were soley responsible but after reading this I wonder who in their right mind would actually READ all of this and still purchase this boat. It sounds like a booby trap to me.
I still feel that the Charity is most to blame for ever having a boat like this in their stable of boat to take GROUPS of non sailors out on.......trusting people, like it or not.



This is taken from Sailing Anarchy

who is to blame?

Nobody with any sense would take a MacGregor out of the bay, but what happens when one flips over, and two people die, in the bay?? The MacGregor in this instance was alleged to be a water ballasted 26 - a dubious enough boat made even more so when you read the Owner's Manual. We have excerpted some below.

There is no question that the issue of liability is going to be raised in this tragedy. Is the manufacturer responsible for such a creation, or can it be chalked up to negligence, or operator error? Maybe nobody onboard had any idea...? This picture shows the boat on the day of the accident. Wow.

STABILITY.
Unless the water ballast tank is completely full, with 1000 pounds of water ballast, the sailboat is not self-righting. Without the water ballast, the boat may not return to an upright position if the boat is tipped more than 60 degrees, and can capsize like most non-ballasted sailboats.

The MacGregor is big, but relatively light, and excessive crew weight can overpower the basic stability of the boat. For this reason, we have placed the restrictions on crew capacity, shown in
the preceeding section.

OPERATING WITHOUTWATER BALLAST.
There may be times when you wish to operate the boat with an empty ballast tank. For example, when pulling a water skier, when trying to conserve fuel, when a faster ride is desired, or when you are in the process of filling the tank. Since only a few miles per hour are lost with a full tank, we recommend that most of your use of the boat be with a full tank. If the tank is empty, carry no more than 4 persons, or 640 pounds.

When operating with an empty ballast tank, keep the crew weight aft, low in the boat, and centered from side to side. Keep the crew in the cockpit, sitting down. The rear of the hull is relatively flat, and the nose area has a deep V to allow the boat to slide through waves with less slamming. If there is a lot of crew weight forward, the flat part of the hull bottom, which normally provides the stability, is raised higher out of the water, and is less effective in providing sideways stability. With the crew weight forward, the nose is depressed. The deep V nose shape does not contribute much to stability. When excess weight is at the front of the boat, the less stable nose area is carrying more of the weight of the boat and crew, the boat becomes far more easily tipped. Keep weight off of the forward V berth when under way, and avoid storing heavy items under the V berth. Crew members on the foredeck or cabin top are far more likely to get bounced out of the boat than those in the cockpit or inside the cabin. Anyone on the cabin top will have a natural tendency to grab the mast or mast support wires if the boat tips. That puts a heavy load high on the mast and tends to lever the boat over. Keep the weight low. Obviously, it is best to have the crew positioned so the boat sits or rides level rather than leaning to one side or the other.

Do not have the sails up when the ballast tank is empty. They can produce a very strong sideways force and capsize the boat. If the waves are larger than one foot, they can induce a lot of rolling motion and compromise stability. Keep the ballast tank full in such conditions. If you are operating where the chance of outside rescue is slim, where conditions are rough, or where the water is cold and uninviting, fill the ballast tank. You will go slower, but you will be a lot safer. A full ballast tank gives greater safety.

 

[Timo42]

Luz, wrong boat, that's for the 26x/m powersailer,completely different animal.

 

[Ron20324]

...I don't understand how a manufacturer can get away with making a 26 foot boat with a capacity of just 6?))

What is that formula for determining capacity based on length and width? Isn't it something like LxW/15 equals capacity? Obviously this is not a guide I would rely upon but the formula yields about 12 if you use a LOA of 22' and width of 8'.

""That sounds like you think it should be rated for MORE people? Now that's not a good idea."" Ron

""It has been overlooked that this formula is not for a SAFE load (Which the manufacturer calculates), but IIRC is it the number of people that, if exceeded, the Coasties can ticket you for overloading- not to mention having enough PFD's."" Ron

And that's my input into this thread, for as my dad said, "To argue with a fool only proves there's two of them".

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Timo, what is your source for the statement that it applies only to boats greater than 26'

Here is just one source that doesn't make any limitation
http://www.boatingbasicsonline.com/content/general/3_7.php

I've seen numerous sources, all with the same formula but none of them with a limitation of use of the formula. The only limitation that I know of is that all monohull powerboats under 20' must have a capacity plate. That is my reason for applying the formula in this instance. If you have a source that indicates that the formula does not apply for boats smaller than 26' then I would be interested to see it.

However, as you illustrate, it appears that the capacity of a boat should be much higher than the practical limit of how many people that you would actually be comfortable accomodating. So it supports my argument that it's not unreasonable to see a boat which appears to be somewhat over-loaded ... the boat is supposed to be able to handle it. But in the case of this Macgregor, the safe capacity is actually far lower than a reasonable expectation.

I am not familiar with your Venture 22. I assume that you are arguing that your boat is safe and stable on the high seas, in conflict with my opinion that Macgregors are not safe. That may be, I won't argue ... I can only ask if you are sailing in strict compliance with the limitations that your boat is designed to handle as stated by the manufacturer. If not, then I assume that these limitations don't apply to you.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Timo, I think I see your source ...

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/reviewpages/boatusf/pdf_files/info1a.pdf

It says that for boats over 26' a reasonable method of determining capacity is to count the number of seats to accomodate passengers OTHERWISE use the formula ....

Ron, I am not sure who you are calling a fool. If you don't like to argue then consider yourself uninvited. I looked for a source of your statement about who the coasties can ticket and under which circumstances and I think you made it up. In fact, I was reading quickly thru a number of sources and I think I saw in one of the sources (I am sure it must have been BOATUS - I can't relocate it) that there is no legal limitation to the number of people on a vessel except for boats under 20' which are required to have the capacity plate.

Somebody posted a link about the boat in the accident and characterized it as "dubious" ... exactly.

 

[Timo42]

Boat US

Actually my boat has a 600lb steel swing keel, safe on the high seas? Absolutely not. Coastal cruiser in fair weather? Not a problem. More than 4 people? Not a chance. And within the recommendations of the mfg, though I tend to make those decisions for myself, rather than rely on a sticker on the bulkhead.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

so you are saying that the placards on the boat don't have to be obeyed by you, but the skipper in this case was negligent for not obeying the placards.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Not to give you a hard time, I have to admit that I don't normally give more than a passing glance at placards and restrictions. I can't condemn somebody else who doesn't follow the strict letter of manufacturers guidelines either. That's where I'm not so quick to start labeling the guy in this instance as an idiot, even though there appears to be a lot wrong with the picture.

 

[jimgreen8c]

Three Things

Three wheel trike ATVs were inherently unsafe and after killing 8 to 10 year olds by breaking there necks, they first blamed parents, then had a "This is not a toy" warning label and, after a few more deaths, were taken off the market entirely. The innocently harmless appearance along with the dangerously engineered instability was a fatal combination that could not be overcome.

I had a swing keel- Venture 25 and loved it! Sailed to Anacapa, Painted Cave, Santa Barbara, and Santa Barbara Island 50 miles offshore (with three reefs cut in the main). When I saw the 26s with the water ballast, I ran the other way. The idea that it would hold half the people than would a 12' Pram is, like the trike above, dangerously deceptive.

I was in the Coast Guard for 4 years. San Diego is, in my mind, "regulatorily Prohibitive". You can't sand a rail or wash a dish on a boat in that harbor without big brother looking over your shoulder. There are cops and Coast Guard all over that harbor. Knowing that that vessel is rated for 4 to 6, or even not knowing, is there anybody who has seen the picture who, if in law enforcement, wouldn't cite that boat operator for overloading? I'm not a big "cops protect us from ourselves " guy but this guy has been running a commercial operation like this for years. Somebody needed to protect his customers... from him. Why was he never cited for, obvious and blatant, overloading?

 

[Timo42]

so you are saying that the placards on the boat don't have to be obeyed by you, but the skipper in this case was negligent for not obeying the placards.

You misunderstood me, according to the owners manual I could put 6 people on my boat, lets assume that if there was a placard, that would be the number on it. I had 5 people out one time,and that was too crowded to sail safely, so my limit is 4, and I prefer 2.

 

[MSN-Travelers]

....
I wonder if MSN is telling us the whole story behind his conversion from a Macgregor to a proper sail boat. What incident on dangerous Lake Michigan led to the disposal of the Macgregor, and how about that happy buyer from Texas ... were they fully aware of the limitations of the boat or were they influenced by Macgregors advertising, which promotes spaciousness, safety, comfort and performance on the high seas? Did they look at the boat in the driveway and see a roomy 26 foot boat and think of all the fun they could have with numerous family and friends? Or were they aware that the boat can capsize with just a few more people than capacity (which is just 4 people when the ballast isn't filled provided that the 4 people have to be sitting quietly in the cockpit and they shouldn't be cavorting on the spacious deck)? Were they aware that the capacity of the boat with the ballast filled is a ridiculously low number of 6 (I remember that my flat-bottomed 16' Glastron had a capacity of 6), in comparison to the formula that we are taught in a safe boating course. I'm sure that MSN filled the buyer in on ALL the limitations but how many boats are sold by how many people of various degrees of integrity? ... and you should get my point.

....

Scott,

I am the hard core racer in the family and sailin’ with a rail buried doesn’t bother me. My wife, on the other hand, is the cruiser type who likes a wide-body ride. The MacGregor is tender in gusty winds and goes to 20 degrees of heel almost immediately before it hardens up. This made my wife and some of our non-sailor guests uncomfortable. We spent four years with the Mac on inland lakes and coastal cruising on Lake Michigan. Retirement allowed us to consider extended cruising throughout the Great Lakes. The Mac would no longer met our needs for that type of sailing and that is why we moved up to a “proper” sailboat.

My buyer came to me after he had already decided a Mac is what he and his family wanted. We spent an entire day rigging, de-rigging, launching and recovering boat and spent about four hours sailing in 10-15 kts of wind with the whole family aboard. Everybody had a chance at the helm and his son and I spent quite a bit of time on deck discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the design. This included hanging on the leward shrouds to induce excess heel and force the boat to roundup.

Regarding the accident boat, and water ballasted MacGregors in general, they WILL NOT turtle if the ballast tank is filled. No water in the tank and it will behave just like any keelboat that has lost its keel. That is, it will turtle like a keel boat but it will not sink. As for my former Mac, the limiting factor for passenger load was the number of comfortable seating positions available in the cockpit. The spacious cabin comes with a price and that price is the size of the cockpit. For us, that was helmsman plus four.

Scott, the accident boat went out of production in 1989. Your continuing outrage concerning the design & marketing on the current 26M is based on what you think you know and isn't based on any actual experience.

 

[Joe]

Ralph Nader........ will you please contribute to this discussion. One word "Corvair"

 

[Timo42]

Ralph Nader........ will you please contribute to this discussion. One word "Corvair"

Only problem with that is that the Corvair was unstable when driven normally because the front swaybar had been deleted as a cost cutting measure by the factory, the Mac only becomes unstable if the boat operator doesn't fill the tank and seal it as spelled out in the instructions.

Not a 26 apologist, wouldn't own one myself, but fair is fair. They can't be too bad, I would hazard a guess that there are more Macs of one type or another down at the mastup storage in MDR than any other brand, and they get used. Give the guy his due, he has probably done more to introduce sailing to the masses than anybody.

 

[OldCat]

This is taken from Sailing Anarchy

who is to blame?

Nobody with any sense would take a MacGregor out of the bay, but what happens when one flips over, and two people die, in the bay?? The MacGregor in this instance was alleged to be a water ballasted 26 - a dubious enough boat made even more so when you read the Owner's Manual. We have excerpted some below.

Sadly, very sadly, there are people who either don't know, or don't get it and overload their boat. In this case it resulted in tragedy :cry:.

But the above quote? All it proves is that in addition to arrogance at Sailing Anarchy - they also have their share of morons. The boat was overloaded - that is not the boat's fault. Should I be in CA, and if you have a MacG, and should you happen to need someone to tend a line or two, I'd be happy to hitch a ride to Catalina.

Which, as I remember, is a bit out of the harbor...

OC

 

[txtowman]

Factoid: The new Macs have some solid ballast in them now, I think it's 300 pounds.

 

[caguy]

Its a shame because Dave McCabe, the founder of Heart of Sailing, seems dedicated and responsible. He never takes out more than 3 passengers 2 crew members and himself on a 35 footer. I think he lost control of safety when they tried to go international.
He is a licensed charter captain but the one is San Diego doesn't appear to be.

 

[Indysailor]

caguy- McCabe is not the founder- the guy piloting the boat was. Nevertheless, your point is spot on. All this focus on the boat seems irrelevant to me- there were ten people in a 26 foot boat and no crew to assist or help with the passengers. Whether the tank was full or not, it was an irresponsible way to run this event. I keep wondering why the kids' grandparents had to be aboard? Two kids with autism and seven other passengers?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

MSN are saying ...

that using a water-ballasted Macgregor without the water ballast is comparable to losing a keel on a traditionally ballasted sail boat? That seems absurd. If a sailboat loses its keel, it is a big deal, and often leads to investigation of the manufacturer. I seem to recall that Bavaria had issues that led to investigations. Not anything to be taken lightly.

OTOH, while Macgregor doesn't exactly condone the use of the boat without ballast, they simply offer warnings about using it unballasted. I think there is a big difference.

I am not sure where you arrive at the conclusion that I offer myself as an expert. I'm simply opining on what I read, and I have never represented anything other than that. Sure, I am forming my opinion based partially on the advertisements of more current Macgegor ads (txtowman adds an interesting side note), but are you saying that the capacity of the 26S is different than what is now published? Are the limitations different? I'll be happy to be informed if they are.

It is interesting to note that there are people responding in defense of Macgregor, who appparently wouldn't own this particular water-ballasted style of boat from Macgregor (for whatever reason - possibly safety?). I find that telling and it reinforces my opinion.

(I actually find arguing over the safety record of Macgregors of this design far more interesting than arguing over the folly of the captain in this instance. Arguing that the captain was irresponsible is a no-brainer afterall and probably wouldn't lead to more than a handful of posts).