fits the video here. http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=14331541According to the guys over on sailnet, this is the boat, a MacGregor 26.
Sailboat Capsizes In San Diego
- Thread starter Rick D
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not the swing keel thats important here. The most important thing is that he had the water ballast filled. The swing keel is only to assist in pointing and windage, or lack there of.
You could be entirely correct, as I've said, I know nothing about smaller boats and how that all works... I was passing along the scant information that I have been able to find out. One issue that was mentioned early on is that this is a family who evidently does not speak English so that is undoubtedly a contributing factor in trying to piece together how this happened.
I'm not familiar with the different Mac models, but most of the swing keels still have a bit of weight to them, anywhere from 300-700lbs from what I understand. While pretty light compared to the keel on most boats (mine is 1850lbs, a Catalina 25 is around 1700lbs), it still makes a difference.
Now with 10 people on board, if they didn't also have the water ballast full, I don't think it would matter if the keel was retracted or lowered. The only difference is that if it was retracted it wouldn't have that extra rotational resistance moving through the water while starting to capsize.
Swing keel would make it a model 26S and they will turtle in a heartbeat if the skipper doesn't flood the internal ballast tank & he/she puts that many people on the deck. Dropping the keel is more for sailing performance (?) than stability. This boat has a semi-traditional sailboat hull shape vs. the 26X & 26M which are power sailors designed to get up on plane.
All fatality MacGregor mishaps have involved empty ballast tanks and a gaggle of people on deck.
All fatality MacGregor mishaps have involved empty ballast tanks and a gaggle of people on deck.
MacGregors have to have the water ballast tank filled to be stable. This isn't the only time this has happened. A family on Lake Champlain capsized their boat on a calm night watching 4th of July fireworks and a few kids were trapped inside the cabin and drowned. The story I read seemed to indicate that the manufacturer has a disclaimer limiting the number of people on board when the water ballast isn't being used. I thought it was a low number like 4 or 6 (based on weight probably).
They exceeded the limit and the manufacturer isn't held liable, even though it is widely known that they will capsize when the limit is exceeded.
They exceeded the limit and the manufacturer isn't held liable, even though it is widely known that they will capsize when the limit is exceeded.
I sold my 1990 MacGregor 26D almost 3 years ago. I don't see anything in the picture just above that would make me think it's not a 26D (D is for daggerboard). If you fail to fill the water ballast and put 10 people on top it will turn turtle. I remember reading another thread, probably the same one mentioned by Thunderbird's skipper, about just such a case not more than 5 years ago.
Here's the link that I read a few years ago ...
Read especially the very last statements that are supposedly from MacGregor. The boat's capacity is supposedly 6 and with the tanks unballasted, only 4. One of the adults apparently had a lot to drink but the authorities could not link alcohol to the cause of the capsizing.
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html
I'm sure I come across slamming MacGregor, but I don't understand how a manufacturer can get away with making a 26 foot boat with a capacity of just 6, or a capacity as low as 4 if the water tanks aren't filled. Isn't that just begging for liability?
What is that formula for determining capacity based on length and width? Isn't it something like LxW/15 equals capacity? Obviously this is not a guide I would rely upon but the formula yields about 12 if you use a LOA of 22' and width of 8'.
Read especially the very last statements that are supposedly from MacGregor. The boat's capacity is supposedly 6 and with the tanks unballasted, only 4. One of the adults apparently had a lot to drink but the authorities could not link alcohol to the cause of the capsizing.
http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html
I'm sure I come across slamming MacGregor, but I don't understand how a manufacturer can get away with making a 26 foot boat with a capacity of just 6, or a capacity as low as 4 if the water tanks aren't filled. Isn't that just begging for liability?
What is that formula for determining capacity based on length and width? Isn't it something like LxW/15 equals capacity? Obviously this is not a guide I would rely upon but the formula yields about 12 if you use a LOA of 22' and width of 8'.
This boat has a water ballast tank and a centerboard. The boat holds approx. 1000# of water in a tank that is built into the hull and filled when under sail. The water tank is filled out of the lake and fills or empties in a few minutes. It also had a retractable centerboard for stability under sail when sailing into the wind. The centerboard is light and adds very little in the way weight. It also has a larger size outboard for faster motoring when not sailing and can reach speeds in the upper teens.
I would think 10 souls aboard would overload the boat and if the tank was dry it would have little stability.
Sadly this is the wrong boat for this type of use or sailing.
I would think 10 souls aboard would overload the boat and if the tank was dry it would have little stability.
Sadly this is the wrong boat for this type of use or sailing.
Something similar happened near Treasure Island in the SF Bay several years ago in a water ballasted Mac. I do not believe that there were any injuries or deaths.
I really do not get into the slamming the Macs. Is not one of the selling points of all Macs is they can be motored without the water ballast filled? A friend and my wife have shown interest in them. The cabin of the 26M is huge.
What about the Hunter water ballast 26, do they have the same record of capsizing?
What about the Hunter water ballast 26, do they have the same record of capsizing?
I know in my manual for my 26S there are many warnings about not having the tank full. I can say it dosn't take a genius to notice how unstable the boat is without the tank full. When the tank is empty as at launching the boat rolls significantly when I get on board. Once full I couldn't rock the boat if I tried. That said these days you better have things placarded in a way that it could not be removed or the lawyers will smell the money. Seems nobody is responsable for reading manuals and common sense anymore.
Also I don't know how you would put 10 people on this boat without the danger of somebody going overboard. I can't even count how many times I've seen all boats loaded untill the water is up to the gunnels and with kids on board. My dog has more sense than some people.
Well thats my rant for the day.
Also I don't know how you would put 10 people on this boat without the danger of somebody going overboard. I can't even count how many times I've seen all boats loaded untill the water is up to the gunnels and with kids on board. My dog has more sense than some people.
Well thats my rant for the day.
It sounds like there are several forces working here. One being inexperience and two being assumption and three what actually happened. To me it seems a inexperienced individual had a sailboat and loaded his family and or friends. We don't know the size of these people, some might of been small children and being of Asian decent, they tend to be small people, so ten of them, might equal 5 Americans as far as cubic feet or weight goes.
The boat (according to reports) tends to be tipsy if the tanks are empty. So I would say a inexperienced person loaded the boat and didn't fill the tanks before the loading took place. Like I said inexperience. After all, how hard can it be to sail a small boat in a harbor with little wind? It'll bite you every time. Overconfidence and inexperience. Maybe it was either a rental or just purchased that day.
Tragedy that could of been avoided, either way
Keep it up,
Ctskip
The boat (according to reports) tends to be tipsy if the tanks are empty. So I would say a inexperienced person loaded the boat and didn't fill the tanks before the loading took place. Like I said inexperience. After all, how hard can it be to sail a small boat in a harbor with little wind? It'll bite you every time. Overconfidence and inexperience. Maybe it was either a rental or just purchased that day.
Tragedy that could of been avoided, either way
Keep it up,
Ctskip
I used to own a 26S. With the ballast filled, it is near impossible to roll it over even without the swing keel down. However, without ballast water the boat is very tippy especially with 10+ people on-board.
I remember in San Diego harbor, there are a couple of rental companies that uses MacGregor. They usually already in the water. So the question is why a rental boat hasn't got the ballast filled.
I can't imagine you can put 10+ people in the cockpit. It wasn't that big. So a few people may be on deck hanging on the shroud making the boat less stable.
The news also said the people don't speak English. If it is indeed a rental, just wonder how much they understand the instruction from the rental company.
Sad story.
I remember in San Diego harbor, there are a couple of rental companies that uses MacGregor. They usually already in the water. So the question is why a rental boat hasn't got the ballast filled.
I can't imagine you can put 10+ people in the cockpit. It wasn't that big. So a few people may be on deck hanging on the shroud making the boat less stable.
The news also said the people don't speak English. If it is indeed a rental, just wonder how much they understand the instruction from the rental company.
Sad story.
That is the correct formula. Maybe half the people started out in the cabin, which would be ballast. Moved up topsides, they'd be a whole new problem.
Latest story I could find. You guys are correct it was a Mac 25.
http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/2-dead-8-injured-as-sailboat-sinks-off-San-Diego-1310258.php
http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/2-dead-8-injured-as-sailboat-sinks-off-San-Diego-1310258.php
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