Racer not giving way

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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
odaydokay said:
He wasn't able to cross over him, he was about to be T-boned. He had to tack away to avoid collision.

Correctamundo!
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OdaydoOK,

If there are two close hauled opposite tack boats and one can turn UP to head to wind and the two boats don't hit, then 99.9% of the time the other boat had a CLEAR CROSS on you. It pretty simple; if you can not turn up to him him, he would have crossed you.

This brings me back to my first point... sailors that race a lot are very good judges of crossings. Those who do it less often often get worried about a situation that is actually OK. Its probably why he didn't make a move; he saw a clean cross the whole way.
 
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odaydokay

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Jul 5, 2011
744
Oday 28 Madison, CT
Davidasailor26 said:
which suggests that the aft boat was to windward of the first guy.
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Hard to recall exactly all this time later, but I want to say the following boat was maybe 5 lengths or so back and virtually dead astern, maybe just slightly upwind, of the lead boat as they were both pointed as high as they could be. 5 lengths at 7 knots works out to only about 15 seconds and yes, I saw no sense in heading for him, but the key thing is the first boat and I really thought he would fall off and so no sense in turning in to him. In retrospect I could have yelled and should have. I also think in retrospect he probably never saw me and maybe had a crew that did but thought they had the ROW or did not want to be seen as telling the skipper how to run his boat. I also think I was safely away from the lead boat when the skipper or someone on board finally saw me and fell off quickly to port.
 
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odaydokay

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Jul 5, 2011
744
Oday 28 Madison, CT
Jackdaw said:
OdaydoOK,

If there are two close hauled opposite tack boats and one can turn UP to head to wind and the two boats don't hit, then 99.9% of the time the other boat had a CLEAR CROSS on you. It pretty simple; if you can not turn up to him him, he would have crossed you.

This brings me back to my first point... sailors that race a lot are very good judges of crossings. Those who do it less often often get worried about a situation that is actually OK. Its probably why he didn't make a move; he saw a clean cross the whole way.
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AS LONG AS HE SAW ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Ward H

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,784
Catalina 30 Mk II Cedar Creek, Bayville NJ
LuzSD said:
But we do cut it close, and this thread has made me realize that it might be considered rude or even dangerous. I do forget that what we consider plenty of room might be another's close call.
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Thanks for that.

I can see three type of sailor's view points here:
1. Racer - Use to cutting it close. Part of racing, knows and accepts the risk.
2. Day sailor (me) - Avoids cutting it close unless I know we both know our intentions. Still, cutting it close is 4 boat lengths or more.
3. New sailor ( me 3 years ago and a friend who's first time on a sailboat was last Wed.) Is that boat going to hit us? (boat in question is 1/2 mile away)

You never know what is going through the other guys mind.
 
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Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,272
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
LuzSD said:
I don't think there is reason to put most racers in any one category.....
...in our waters, for the most part they are all really good and respectful sailors that do know the rules and follow them. With all the lobster pots, whale watching and fishing boats, PWC's, SUP's, kayaks, paddle teams etc.. to watch out for, when we are racing, everything is an obstacle to negotiate.
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My experience had been exactly as you describe. That is why I was so astonished to read Jackdaw's comments in response to this specific thread. Look, we all respect and admire his contributions for good reason. But in this instance, I think his early postings were just plain wrong, and his revelation about racer's attitude toward a non-racer's crossing was probably best left unsaid. I obviously made some comments that were indirectly very insulting. Those comments were not made from my own personal attitude, but the comments exhibit how the negative attitude cuts both ways. I don't think for a minute that Jackdaw intended to insult Odaydokey, because I think that Jackdaw would never have that intention in these forums, but I think that his 2 early posts could be interpreted to be insulting. For my part, when I let fly in a forum, it's simply because it is a forum. If you want to know my feelings, I'll let it all hang out! I don't get angry and I don't hold grudges. :biggrin:
BTW, I also don't think that many racers respond in the manner that Odaydokey or Kimelmore experienced. From the other perspective, I think we all realize that crossings can be very close if a non-racer wonders through a race area. It should be expected, anticipated and nothing to be considered rude. Also, I didn't interpret anybody's post, including my own, to suggest that consideration doesn't cut both ways. I don't think there is anybody that doesn't go to some length to avoid crossing conflicts when in the vicinity of a race, and certainly nobody has indicated that they purposely try to disrupt a race. There are merely circumstances when a crossing is unavoidable for whatever reason, and during those times, I think we all believe that the navigation rules are the guidelines which must be followed. Or at least, that is what I expect.
 
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Benny17441

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May 24, 2004
7,169
CC 30 South Florida
All this remind of the story of the Captain of a US Aircraft Carrier in the North Sea arguing with another about who was required to move over to avoid collision when the final message came in, " Suit yourself mate, we are a lighthouse."
 
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Jackdaw

Jackdaw

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thats very true Ward.
odaydokay said:
Naw.....We were gonna hit or miss by a foot if lucky.....
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Sure OK. ;^)

But here is the part you simply don't get.

If a cross is actually close, you TURNING UP will CAUSE (not avoid) a collision.

Turning up SHORTENS the distance between the boats. You are now going straight to windward and into his path. You turned up and still couldn't hit him? He was over you by a mile.

BTW, all the other boats behind HAD to be to windward. And he had full rights over them. What they do about you is not his issue; and if for some reason he wants to turn up on them, that's his right as well as leeward boat. They have to stay clear.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,272
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Racer condescension on full display. Of course the racer knows better ... sure, right.
If Oday recognized that he was about to get T-boned, it is pretty obvious that the other guy wasn't even close to crossing clearly. It's a good thing they both turned up, otherwise it would have been a sure hit. Oday had no other choice - no room to turn downwind. You're not thinking clearly, Jackdaw. Turning downwind is the closest path to collision in this scenario.
It would only have been feasible to turn downwind if Oday was about to T-bone the other guy. How is it that you don't understand or recognize the navigation rules?

Turning downwind is what the other guy should have done to avoid the collision (since he was the T-Boner) but he waited too long (or didn't see Odaydokay, as Oday so generously allowed him an excuse).
 
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thinwater

thinwater

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Mar 26, 2011
3,716
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
The main thing with close calls is communication. In a racing fleet you should be able to safely assume that you are seen (bow watch for genoa) and that the rules are know. With non-racers the main problems is if they don't see you (no bow watch). Often the solution can be a sound signal (1 port-to-port, 2 starboard-to-starboard). While is possible (likely) that they don't know the meaning, at least they will look.
 
Skipper

Skipper

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Oct 9, 2008
1,742
Bristol 29.9 Dana Point
Scott T-Bird said:
Actually, this whole thread has been enlightening ... I've always considered that racers were foremost sailors who respected navigation rules. In that light, I've always respected their desire to have a fair race and I've done my best to avoid crossing conflicts and allow for their passage through the course with minimal disturbance, including disturbance from "dirty air" off my sails.
But now, I'm beginning to see some racers as a boorish group on the water, who expect that they can ignore navigation rules and bully their way through a crossing with a non-racing sailboat. When they don't get what they want, they call the other sailor "douche" and laugh about other sailors behind their back when they are gathered at the yacht club bar getting trashed through the afternoon after their "competition" is over. Afterall, these weekend gladiators are privileged and the rest of us are expected to know it.
I guess my eyes have been opened!
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There are still good racers out there.
Here are true yachtsmen racing:
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/true-yachtsmen-racing-in-newport-beach.180654/
 
kimelmore

kimelmore

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Dec 28, 2010
462
Catalina 380 san pedro
I personally know quite a few sailors that are dedicated racers. They are normally very polite and enjoy just a day sail as much as the next person. Put them in a race and suddenly it's like the Indy 500 out there. They wouldn't dream of holding a race on an open superhighway for just this reason. The only thing I want to say about this is that we all have to be careful out there. Racers, please understand that some of us feel 3 or 4 boat lengths is a CLOSE PASS that is possibly dangerous... because we DON'T RACE! It's just not in our DNA or whatever. The admiral actually stated to me quite forcefully that we will never race the new boat due to her feeling that racers don't care if they hit each other. I'm not going to debate that I just want to mention it. We do go to lengths to stay out of the way of obvious racers. I don't wish to interfere with their enjoyment of what they are doing. But if a fleet were to suddenly come upon me as happened to me once or twice I will take the same action as before. I will hold my course and let the chips fall where they may and only take action if I feel collision is unavoidable. And yes I will yell *STARBOARD*...LOL*....now...can we all play nice?
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,272
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Jackdaw said:
This brings me back to my first point... sailors that race a lot are very good judges of crossings.
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5 knot T-bone; Sonar vs Sonar. Sounded like a train wreck. Almost sank her; they needed to keep crew on starboard the whole way home to keep the hole above the water line.


(Compliments to Jackdaw for this photo) ;)

Why Yes! Of course they are! :deadhorse:
 
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uncledom

uncledom

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Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
This has been enlightening, I agree with Scott on that point. I guess from now on I'll go with the rule of tonnage, racers beware.:stir:
 
Kermit

Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,673
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
Normally I quit reading threads that are so argumentative. But this has been fun. Fun like a train wreck.
 
Scott T-Bird

Scott T-Bird

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Oct 26, 2008
6,272
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I know that I've been obnoxious more than enough for one thread. I'll quit. Maybe ... :twisted:
 
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