Racer not giving way

[weinie]

Didn't mean to insinuate that a collision wouldn't cause damage...only that we are much used to traveling in cars, pn motorcycles, bikes, etc at much higher speeds and yet we don't freak out every time we have to navigate a busy supermarket parking lot.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Jackdaw, you made the point that Odaydokay averted the collision improperly by pointing upwind and subsequently heading into irons. I think you are wrong on this point, too. Obviously, being on stbd tack, he was anticipating that the racer should duck his position. He also noted that there was another boat close behind the first boat, who also may have needed to duck his position. When it became clear that the racer was not giving way early enough, attempting to duck the racer could have been far more damaging. Suppose the racer(s) on port tack finally came to their senses and decided to duck or simply waited to duck at the last instant (as you suggest racing boats do because close crossings are normal). This would lead to a head-on collision at speed. In fact, I would be anticipating that the port tacking boat would duck so the LAST thing I would do is turn downwind to point directly in the direction I'm anticipating the port tacking boat to go.
By turning upwind, Odaydokay makes his profile much smaller (by presenting his stern) and the worst that can happen is the 2 boats kiss sides at slower speed if the port tacker also turns upwind (too late to avoid a collision). Doing what he did was the right response because it would have led to the least damage no matter what the offending skipper (the racer on port tack) finally decided to do.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw, you made the point that Odaydokay averted the collision improperly by pointing upwind and subsequently heading into irons. I think you are wrong on this point, too. Obviously, being on stbd tack, he was anticipating that the racer should duck his position. He also noted that there was another boat close behind the first boat, who also may have needed to duck his position. When it became clear that the racer was not giving way early enough, attempting to duck the racer could have been far more damaging. Suppose the racer(s) on port tack finally came to their senses and decided to duck or simply waited to duck at the last instant (as you suggest racing boats do because close crossings are normal). This would lead to a head-on collision at speed. In fact, I would be anticipating that the port tacking boat would duck so the LAST thing I would do is turn downwind to point directly in the direction I'm anticipating the port tacking boat to go.
By turning upwind, Odaydokay makes his profile much smaller (by presenting his stern) and the worst that can happen is the 2 boats kiss sides at slower speed if the port tacker also turns upwind (too late to avoid a collision). Doing what he did was the right response because it would have led to the least damage no matter what the offending skipper (the racer on port tack) finally decided to do.

Scott, its clear you don't race. That's OK. But turning UP always presents your beam to the other boat, setting up a T-bone. The only time your transom gets presented is after you have tacked fully onto their line, which is after your entire boat swings through their bow. Read the entire post; everyone who races agrees with this. This is a silly discussion.

When both boats try and move late and at the same time is crazy for sure. But boats NEVER hit head on. 95% of the time they have glancing hits that they bounce off of.

 

[Calif. Ted]

So if the OP had turned up and stalled for 30 seconds 5 minutes earlier none of this would have happened ?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

At the point that 2 boats are attempting to avoid a collision, it is just silly to consider this a racing discussion. If I'm on stbd tack and I'm anticipating that a port tacking boat should be turning downwind to avoid me, the last thing I'm going to do is turn downwind directly into his anticipated path. But then again, maybe it is just better to T-bone the a-hole.

 

[odaydokay]

Scott, its clear you don't race. That's OK. But turning UP always presents your beam to the other boat, setting up a T-bone. The only time your transom gets presented is after you have tacked fully onto their line, which is after your entire boat swings through their bow. Read the entire post; everyone who races agrees with this. This is a silly discussion.

When both boats try and move late and at the same time is crazy for sure. But boats NEVER hit head on. 95% of the time they have glancing hits that they bounce off of.

I don't think you have an accurate picture of the two boats. We were already at almost exactly 90 degrees from each other, i.e. both close hauled on opposite tacks. Do nothing and I would have been t-boned at 90 degrees, turning to starboard I did present him with only the width of my stern to deal with. I actually went about briefly then when he passed and I turned up into irons to reset my jib for a proper come about. Turning to port I would maybe have missed him but am now headed right into the boat behind him, but my thinking was he would turn to starboard to miss me and we would indeed then be head on. I think I chose the least worst alternative. Scott has the picture pretty much right.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Actually, this whole thread has been enlightening ... I've always considered that racers were foremost sailors who respected navigation rules. In that light, I've always respected their desire to have a fair race and I've done my best to avoid crossing conflicts and allow for their passage through the course with minimal disturbance, including disturbance from "dirty air" off my sails.
But now, I'm beginning to see some racers as a boorish group on the water, who expect that they can ignore navigation rules and bully their way through a crossing with a non-racing sailboat. When they don't get what they want, they call the other sailor "douche" and laugh about other sailors behind their back when they are gathered at the yacht club bar getting trashed through the afternoon after their "competition" is over. Afterall, these weekend gladiators are privileged and the rest of us are expected to know it.
I guess my eyes have been opened!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Read the entire post; everyone who races agrees with this.

Exactly ... coming from the perspective of a racer who believes that racing boats are always privileged and non-racing boats should just get the hell out of the way. I see your point.

 

[Roland5048]

Hey! I thought you two declared a truce. Let's play nice.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

No, that was Skipper (whom I agree with). Quite honestly, I'm astonished by the racer attitude in this instance. How anybody can chide another sailor for expecting all sailors to adhere to navigation rules is beyond me. Perhaps it's best if the "racer attitude" and their behavior at the yacht club bar (laughing at other sailors) should just be kept under one's hat.
How many examples have we seen in this forum where boaters are condemned for not knowing navigation rules. Now we are supposed to accept that there is an exception for racing sailboats? I don't think so.

 

[Jackdaw]

I don't think you have an accurate picture of the two boats. We were already at almost exactly 90 degrees from each other, i.e. both close hauled on opposite tacks. Do nothing and I would have been t-boned at 90 degrees, turning to starboard I did present him with only the width of my stern to deal with. I actually went about briefly then when he passed and I turned up into irons to reset my jib for a proper come about. Turning to port I would maybe have missed him but am now headed right into the boat behind him, but my thinking was he would turn to starboard to miss me and we would indeed then be head on. I think I chose the least worst alternative. Scott has the picture pretty much right.

If you were able to tack on top of him and not be hit by him, then you were already over him and didn't need to tack. Something in your story is not clear.

 

[Jackdaw]

No, that was Skipper (whom I agree with). Quite honestly, I'm astonished by the racer attitude in this instance. How anybody can chide another sailor for expecting all sailors to adhere to navigation rules is beyond me. Perhaps it's best if the "racer attitude" and their behavior at the yacht club bar (laughing at other sailors) should just be kept under one's hat.
How many examples have we seen in this forum where boaters are condemned for not knowing navigation rules. Now we are supposed to accept that there is an exception for racing sailboats? I don't think so.

Scotty,
You've taken some attitude to this than makes no sense to me. I'm not going to respond to you in this thread anymore.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

He wasn't able to cross over him, he was about to be T-boned. He had to tack away to avoid collision. (He didn't tack on top of him.) Perhaps he had time to turn downwind and T-bone the offending boat, or the following boat. Would that be preferable? What's not clear? It appears crystal clear to me and I don't even need a diagram!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I just suggest that you re-read your posts #4 and #18 and perhaps walk those back a little bit. Insinuating that you are just "helping him out" by pointing out that he performed a douche maneuver and you wouldn't want him to be laughed at by the lushes at the yacht club bar is both condescending and insulting from my perspective. And wrong.

 

[Ward H]

I haven't come across any races yet in my part of the bay so I have no experience with passing through a race. We do have motorboat traffic and I always either stand on or indicate my intentions in plenty of time to let them know where I am going. This apparently works as I have yet to come across an obnoxious cussing MOBO operator. Well, once when the Admiral panicked when he got close and mistakenly turned into him but I apologized and we moved on.

Same with other sailboats. Unless it is very clear to me that the other sailboat sees me and we know each others intentions, I always avoid a close passing. I'm day sailing. Why would I take any risk with a close passing.
I can understand racers taking risk. If I was racing I would be taking a risk also.

So I guess I am asking why a racer would expect somebody, who they know is not racing, to: 1. Have the experience to understand that a close crossing is planned? 2. Be willing to take the extra risk of a close crossing that the racer is willing to take?

Or maybe we're just not that congested that we have to sail close together and I lack the experience of constant close crossings.

 

[flynhi4u]

A diagram would really help some of us less enlightened "sailors" follow this thread.
I m still stuck on not being able to sleep naked in Minnesota.

Sam

 

[Davidasailor26]

odaydokay - one thing still doesn't quite make sense to me. You said that the guy behind the first racer had to avoid him when he headed up, which suggests that the aft boat was to windward of the first guy. If that's the case then ducking the second guy would be even easier than the first one. The fact that they both turned up suddenly after your turn really suggests to me that they were both planning on ducking you, but then interpreted your turn as a tack and headed up to not have to go through your shadow. Of course I see your point that you couldn't assume that was their plan and without being there to see the angles I guess I can't disagree with your decision. Also, just to keep in mind in the future (definitely not wanting to be accusatory) - if the racer hadn't headed up and had contacted you, even after you turned up, you would probably still be partially at fault from an insurance standpoint, since your action was taken so late that it still allowed contact to occur.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

So I guess I am asking why a racer would expect somebody, who they know is not racing, to: 1. Have the experience to understand that a close crossing is planned? 2. Be willing to take the extra risk of a close crossing that the racer is willing to take?

Or maybe we're just not that congested that we have to sail close together and I lack the experience of constant close crossings.

Hi Ward,
It is true that we have little need to worry about these conflicts. For me, it was a constant just about any Saturday or Sunday morning race on Lake Hopatcong. From my perspective, I avoided crossing a race on port tack like the plague. The boats come on too fast and in such tight groupings that without the ROW, it was just too difficult to navigate. If on Stbd tack going upwind, it was feasible to cross when it was necessary to get to a location on the lake where I could stay away from them altogether. What makes it feasible to cross without conflict was the knowledge that the racers were observing navigation rules. If you KNOW that they are going to duck you where necessary, you have confidence to hold your course. When you know that they will pass astern, you also know that it may be a very close crossing. But you know what to expect. When they cross ahead of you, you should have the confidence knowing that they have room, even if it is close. That said, I don't ever recall any crossings that made me nervous. Also, if turning downwind didn't put me in conflict with other racers, then I would adjust downwind just enough to make their crossing ahead more comfortable.

You have to consider, though, a racer would be pissed off at you if you turn downwind to give a lead racer room, and then held your course to force that racer to duck you. Given this circumstance, I would make the lead racer duck me, which gives the following racer a chance to make up some ground. Hey ... it's all in the game!

I think it is disturbing to realize that racers might be expecting you to give way, when you are stand on. If they expect you to ignore navigation rules, or conversely, you expect them to ignore the rules, that just leads to confusion and unpredictability.

 

[odaydokay]

He wasn't able to cross over him, he was about to be T-boned. He had to tack away to avoid collision. (He didn't tack on top of him.) Perhaps he had time to turn downwind and T-bone the offending boat, or the following boat. Would that be preferable? What's not clear? It appears crystal clear to me and I don't even need a diagram!

He wasn't able to cross over him, he was about to be T-boned. He had to tack away to avoid collision.

Correctamundo!

 

[LuzSD]

This incredible conversation has enlightened me about assumptions that I have had because we race. There are many situations where we approach a non racing boat, and make our plan to duck them if need be. But we do cut it close, and this thread has made me realize that it might be considered rude or even dangerous. I do forget that what we consider plenty of room might be another's close call.

I don't think there is reason to put most racers in any one category.....
...in our waters, for the most part they are all really good and respectful sailors that do know the rules and follow them. With all the lobster pots, whale watching and fishing boats, PWC's, SUP's, kayaks, paddle teams etc.. to watch out for, when we are racing, everything is an obstacle to negotiate.