Racer not giving way
- Thread starter odaydokay
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I hate to admit this but I had a few minuts this morning so I went to the dry erase board to diagram this whole event out starting at page one. By the time I got to page 9 the dry erase board was covered with different colored boats as everyone had a different idea of what really happened and I had a buzz from the fumes off the dry erase markers. I stepped out to get a breath of fresh air before I passed out and while in the hanger a Co worker walked passed and saw my diagram on the board. Thinking a young kid had been doodling on the board they erased it off! Now I am no where closer to knowing who was on first than I was when I started!!!
Sam
Sam
Here's the diagram according to Odaydokay's description. It is apparent he did the right thing, given the circumstance.
It was also a pretty clear explanation ... not much room for confusion. (you'll have to rotate the diagram)
Well for me, now that I see the diagram I would have done exactly what his diagram shows as what "racers" think he should have done! Not because it was race involved at all... It just looks like he'd keep some speed and avoid two boats he'll eventually have to deal with. The diagram helped me a lot. Why wait? would not have even considered getting to the "pink"zone. Thanks for the clarity of a diagram, I'm very visual
If it were just 2 boats and he didn't have any particular place to go, then it is the most reasonable response. For whatever reason, he wanted to hold his course. It is plausible that there were far more racing boats following. Once he begins ducking, then he may as well just turn around or find some other way to wait for the parade to go by. It would be awkward to choose a few boats to duck and then insist on STBD rights over others. I think he may have been reasonable to simply hold his course and force the leader to duck rather than be forced to wait for the entire parade to pass.
Scott,
Nice diagram and very clear and easy to understand. It gets cluttered when you start adding all the other opinions to it.
Had that diagram been with the original post this thread might have gone 2 pages instead of 10 LOL
Sam
The diagram is good. I always thought the racer would fall off just a tad pass astern. So turn toward him??? Was not my instinct at the time. Today maybe different. Maybe fall off and follow him so I pass very close astern and yell: "That was my right away, but I am giving you one, Mr. Racer." Then I guess I would have done the same thing to the ship following.... Hindsight is always 20-20.
Hindsight is always 20-20.....
Yes it is, no disrespect to you at all. I just finally understood the situation and saw what I would have done ( I think!) if in the same situation. I don't like that panic feeling of wondering about the other guy!
Yes it is, no disrespect to you at all. I just finally understood the situation and saw what I would have done ( I think!) if in the same situation. I don't like that panic feeling of wondering about the other guy!
I agree. We would have made a heading chang earlier as well. If there was only one boat presenting a potential issue we might have continued on but seeing how there were two boats to deal with why not change heading sooner and avoid the conflict. We give power boaters in their 40 foot pens extender hell for not doing that very thing when crossing our path so it would be hypocritical of us to not do the same when we see an issue we could prevent with a simple heading change early on no matter which boat thinks they are the SOB.
I know the logic of being the SOB but I also like the logic some one shared many post back that you only have ROW if the other boat gives it to you.
I am sure others probably feel like us in that we are always the boat giving way to others, even other sailboats. At the end of the day does it really matter unless you have to be at some place at a given time. For us we aren't in that group and if we were I would chose another means of travel.
We sail to have fun and relax, so the further we stay away from others the more opportunity we have to do that. Amazing how three boats meeting on a lake can create so much turmoil not only on the water but in our little forum here.
I avoid sailboat races like I avoid airshow and fly ins. I fly for a living and try my best to avoid putting myself in situations that can cause me problems. I have had nothing but problems around air shows and fly ins so I just avoid them like the plague. I unintentionally flew a job on a Saturday a few weeks ago in which they were having a local fly in with airplane rides. I had no choice but to return in the middle of it. No notam was issued saying any differently so I "expected" everyone to be adhering to the FAR's and flying the approved traffic pattern. Of all the times you want to be doing it by the book this is one of them. Instead the group giving rides had made up their own traffic pattern and failed to notify the rest of the flying population. I wound up getting cut off not once but twice in the pattern by planes giving rides. Even though I was doing it all by the book their actions put me in the position that had I continued my pattern around to land I would have now been the plane causing the conflict. Amazing how quickly you can go from being in the right to being the villian. Again, I was only going to have the right away if the others involved gave it to me and it was obvious they had no intention of doing so. I was beyond furious but instead of coming uncorked I just put the plane in the hanger and went sailing, far away from other boats.
I guess my point is that as long as there is more than one boat on the water or more than one plane in the sky there will always be the possibility of conflict between them. My dad wore me out growing up telling me to "Look ahead, think ahead". It is a very simple principle but if followed could help prevent so many of the issues we run into in regards to others but not all of them. Sometimes it just happens mostly due to either a failure to communicate effectively or one or more parties thinking for the other party or parties involved. There will always be two lines of thought when it comes to conflict with each party thinking they are right, dam the rules.
So just see and avoid, look ahead and think ahead. Life is much simpler and less frustrating when you make a slight change to avoid conflict early on no matter who thinks they are "right".
Sam
Still think this whole thing is just a pissing contest. Racers are understandably miffed at sunday afternoon sailors blocking the path to their next mark and the sunday afternoon sailors are angry that they have to now get up and re-trim their sails to go around the giant phalanx of fiberglass and black laminate sail cloth bearing down on them.
The issue is not whether the OP should have turned one way or the other. The point is he was the stand on vessel and the racer ignored that. Waiting until the last second to move (as is common and expected in racing) is dead wrong in this instance because the cruiser is not racing. When the racer failed to signal his observance of the stand on vessel, by making his move early and obvious, he forced the cruiser to make a move. This may have surprised the racer and actually made things worse. Racers have to acknowledge that what they regard as close (feet if not less) is not what cruisers regard as close (hundreds of yards or in the case of my wife,about a mile). The rules require an early and obvious signal of intentions. The racer here was wrong. The cruiser here is not a jerk, douche or a-hole.
Do you not avoid fishing boats that have lines out even if you have 'ROW'?
Do you not avoid large commercial vessels and barges even if you have 'ROW'?
Do you sail right next to a kayaker paddleing or do you give him an extra wide berth to be safe?
So why not give some racers a bit of breathing room? Don't forget, they may have boats on all other sides and have actual less freedom to maneuver.
You're probably right about it being a pissing match. As Maine Sail pointed out, the ultimate navigation rule is simply to avoid each other and it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. Others have said that insurance doesn't really care, either, if 2 idiots can't avoid each other, neither one is going to be responsible for the damage to the other, based on equal negligence. So in this case, rules simply break down and there aren't any rules that matter. It might be fun to take an old beater sailboat and sail her on port tack through a fleet of tricked-out racing boats and let the chips fall as they may. I can imagine the entertainment value, and if lucky, perhaps you T-bone one of the suckers or one them T-bones you causing your beater to be condemned to the junkyard (maybe where it belonged anyway) and thousands in damages and time off racing for the guy who wins the pissing match. Just a fantasy, possibly. But in the end, what has this pissing match amounted to except just an excuse for another exclusion to navigation rules.
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OK, sorry dude, and if I get point #2 for this so be it but, your "fantasy" is a real jerk move and thought. Seriously.... what the hell are you thinking posting that. Let's go mess with the race fleet and see how we can screw with them. Bonus if there is a collision!! People get hurt in collisions, or worse. Apparently that is entertaining to you.... Stay clear of me on any body of water as you are a dangerous sailor..... wonder how you drive.... Oh the things I want to type but, ya know.... you ain't worth getting banned over.
Wow, John don't you think you're being a little extreme in your reaction? Odaydokay has been nothing but gentlemanly throughout this sometimes contentious thread. I don't think he deserves that. Do you race, by the way? It seems that some of the racers have reacted pretty strongly against anybody who questions their authority ... just check out the posts in the first few pages. Some really nasty words have been tossed around regarding any recreational sailor who dares to adhere to navigation rules, where clearly there is an unwritten exception for racers when they are in conflict with a recreational sailor. I think weinie has hit upon it pretty accurately (not that I know which camp he follows 
as he seems to have a sense of humor). As long as some racers are pissing on others, they seem to be happy. If they happen to be on the receiving end, well .... wah, wah, wah!
as he seems to have a sense of humor). As long as some racers are pissing on others, they seem to be happy. If they happen to be on the receiving end, well .... wah, wah, wah!- Status