O'day 39 project boat

[Panta Rei]

Disaster strikes!!!

I removed the sink last night to put a mirror finish on it. This will allow the sink to match the mirror finish range I'm installing. A double sink with a mirror finish is $700, The guys in the shop say I can do it in a few hours. I'll be sure to post plenty of detail on that job.
So on to the disaster. The plywood base under the Formica was completely rotted and delaminated. It's a major rebuild.
I don't do intricate wood work. This will all be new to me. The ice box opening trim looks to have no opportunity to be removed without destroying it. The O'day metal corners were glued in using 5200. Nothing looks easy to remove.
I called my old boss from Trek Bicycles. Jeff once taught High School wood shop. I hope he can help. I may even hire this one out. Jeff now consults at Harken doing advance manufacturing systems work. Harken is building a new combined sales office and manufacturing plan just West of Milwaukee right on I-94. They say it was a good time to commit to manufacturing here in the US. They should be moving in now. I'll post an update on this as well.
Photos coming later today.
Does anyone know what the white surface O'day used on the counters? Menards has something close but it has a fine texture. The existing does not.

 

[tcwaltz]

I'm planning to redo my laminate tops. I was in the cabinet business for 7 years so I have the know how. Right now I plan to use regular Formica for the top and I'm putting cabinet liner on the bottom to help resist moisture penetration into the bottom of the plywood. Cabinet liner is basically thin laminate. It's about half the thickness of vertical grade. I'm also hoping it helps with moisture issues above the cooler. Right now mine is raw plywood. It looks to me like oday was using a melamine coating on plywood in the locker areas and some places around my galley. I'm going to assume they did the same on bigger boats. Now you got me thinking about pulling the sink and polishing it

 

[Panta Rei]

I'm planning to redo my laminate tops. I was in the cabinet business for 7 years so I have the know how. Right now I plan to use regular Formica for the top and I'm putting cabinet liner on the bottom to help resist moisture penetration into the bottom of the plywood. Cabinet liner is basically thin laminate. It's about half the thickness of vertical grade. I'm also hoping it helps with moisture issues above the cooler. Right now mine is raw plywood. It looks to me like oday was using a melamine coating on plywood in the locker areas and some places around my galley. I'm going to assume they did the same on bigger boats. Now you got me thinking about pulling the sink and polishing it

You assumed right about the melamine. It's surprising how much all of these boats have in common.

Sink is 90% done (much much brighter) and I'm 90% covered in black. Very easy to do if you have the proper tools and materials. It looks like this shop has 20,000 in materials and tools (rotary grinders I believe) just for finishing stainless. I used a buffing wheel on the bottom, scotch bright flapper on the walls and will put a mirror finish on the top once some magic potion shows up from the finishing supplier. Each of the finishes has a numerical number to it. I'll get the correct terminology tomorrow.

Back to replacing the counter top. Removing the existing counter is the tough part. The cooler was of course foamed in after the counter top so access is very difficult to remove screws holdig the counter in place. I hope to spend some time taking photos tomorrow. They may show everyone what they may be up against taking on this task.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE HELP!!!!

 

[25yearslater]

Thank you once again for your kind words Todd. I have endeavored to share the info so others may know what they are encountering before they begin. Of course the proof will be in the pudding next April. I am choosing April as the launch date as early spring bring some of the toughest weather a sailor can encounter here on the Great Lakes. With the strong cold winds and short wave interval a boat can be truly put to the test. Coupled with the lack of bouyancy that only cold fresh water can provide and it should prove out my repair. I plan a conservative series of daysails at first and continue on through the full spectrum of conditions while attempting to finish with a complete knockdown if possible. I fully plan to test YOT against the worst Lake Ontario has to offer. Once complete I will proceed to crew training. Those would be the lads. After that it's over to Canada and other ports including Sodus Bay as I promised the salesman I would give him an opportunity to see what the neglected gal really was. After that it will be figure out how I'm going to get this thing to next years rOnDAYvous.

 

[Panta Rei]

Disaster turned into a windfall for O'day owners.

Counter top came off much easier than I expected. Under counter exposed just as TC waltz said.

I'll take many more photos before I put it back together:

Photos are :

• studs corroded
• Sink bottom first buff
• Sink sides Scotch brighted then masked ready for final bottom buff.
• some sink studs fell off
• Using a screw to pull the wood plug. This is done by drilling a small hole and then screwing in a screw until it bottoms on the imbedded screw head. You then give it a turn or two and it's out.
• Corner removed . Glued in with hot melt. Something we should be writing in our logs
• Corner, designed to have one screw in the center hold it in. But how do you screw in the screw after the counter is in place?
• Ice book attached to the bottom of the counter top
• Icebox

I"ll try to document this well. Where to cut ETC. It's much easier than I had thought.

 

[Panta Rei]

This may help someone in the same boat

This may help someone planning to put refrigeration in the box or wondering what can be done to increase insulation. It will be a great help to anyone hoping to remove the counter top. I was very fortunate that the counter top was badly de-laminated. Once I cut around the box the layers pealed away easily.

The counter top is attached with screws driven in from the bottom. Access is very difficult if not near impossible. I believe the best way to remove the counter top is to cut it off by cutting around the perimeter of the ice box and around the perimeter of the counter itself just inside of the frame. You can see from the pictures.

The sides of the icebox are formed into a flange at the top. The flange is 2" wide. This flange is used to attach the box to the counter top. It's glued and screwed onto the top . It's screwed in only two places. I believe this may be a combination of access and lack of support from the base of the icebox. The two locations where it is screwed is on the starboard side of the box and the forward side on the starboard halve of that side. You can see this in the photos.

The 1/4 round metal corner pieces attached to the top of the extruded corners were not screwed in even though they were designed to be screwed in. I think it is simply not possible to reach this area once the counter top is on. My guess is that the factory used hot melt. I encountered this on the corner near the sink. The corner near the stove had no adhesive at all. I suggest you try prying them up with a screwdriver as you heat them.

Again, the top flange of the icebox is 2" around the entire perimeter. The insulation comes out even with the flange so each side has 2" foam insulation. There is a 1" gap on the forward side that could accept more insulation. Of course there is lots of room on the starboard side.

I've got 8 new photos but I can not upload them (sorry). Something is not working on this site. I have notified the them. Hopefully I can upload them tomorrow. They are all huge photos, I think the detail may be helpful. The huge size may be causing the problem.

 

[Panta Rei]

Pictures

This may help someone planning to put refrigeration in the box or wondering what can be done to increase insulation. It will be a great help to anyone hoping to remove the counter top. I was very fortunate that the counter top was badly de-laminated. Once I cut around the box the layers pealed away easily.

The counter top is attached with screws driven in from the bottom. Access is very difficult if not near impossible. I believe the best way to remove the counter top is to cut it off by cutting around the perimeter of the ice box and around the perimeter of the counter itself just inside of the frame. You can see from the pictures.

The sides of the icebox are formed into a flange at the top. The flange is 2" wide. This flange is used to attach the box to the counter top. It's glued and screwed onto the top . It's screwed in only two places. I believe this may be a combination of access and lack of support from the base of the icebox. The two locations where it is screwed is on the starboard side of the box and the forward side on the starboard halve of that side. You can see this in the photos.

The 1/4 round metal corner pieces attached to the top of the extruded corners were not screwed in even though they were designed to be screwed in. I think it is simply not possible to reach this area once the counter top is on. My guess is that the factory used hot melt. I encountered this on the corner near the sink. The corner near the stove had no adhesive at all. I suggest you try prying them up with a screwdriver as you heat them.

Again, the top flange of the icebox is 2" around the entire perimeter. The insulation comes out even with the flange so each side has 2" foam insulation. There is a 1" gap on the forward side that could accept more insulation. Of course there is lots of room on the starboard side.

I've got 8 new photos but I can not upload them (sorry). Something is not working on this site. I have notified the them. Hopefully I can upload them tomorrow. They are all huge photos, I think the detail may be helpful. The huge size may be causing the problem.

aft side of icebox
close-up of Aft side
large view of aft side
forward side of icebox
close-up of forward side
overall view
shelves on starboard side

 

[Panta Rei]

I sent the following message to TC waltz concerning the install of the new counter. I'll be sure to post his reply if he does not do so here,

Thanks for your help. Now that I have the old counter top off I now need to decide how to reattach. There is a 3/4 frame around the perimeter where the old top was attached with screws coming up from the bottom. Access is very limited and I believe it is not possible to fasten some locations. I was thinking of screwing it down from the top and then apply the laminate? What do your think?

 

[jibes138]

I agree with your idea of screwing from the top then install laminate. Only issue is the contact cement will not allow you any forgiveness if you misalign the installation of the laminate. You may want to find a way to guide it into position maybe leave a little material in the sink opening for a couple studs, then cut off that part after you install the laminate. Another suggestion for improvement, if yours is like mine, around the sink there is no means to prevent water from getting under the surrounding wood. Really need something like a bead of caulk all around to trap the water to prevent seapage. You should coat all surfaces of the plywood with epoxy to make it somewhat waterproof so you aren't doing this again any time soon.
On another note I am amazed at how good the insulation is in the icebox compared to any portable cooler. You mention it is like 2" of foam? Thats some good R factor. Even the side you said could use more still has dead air space around it that provides insulation. All foam does is provide dead air to slow the heat transfer rate, also known as Q dot. So dead air is the secret, fiberglass insulation in a house does the same thing it is not the glass that insulates but all the trapped air provided by the nice fluffy fiberglass.

 

[tcwaltz]

You don't want to screw in top down. If you have to remove it you can't and anyone trying to later will destroy everything trying to get it apart. First and foremost and angle drill is your friend. You can also silicone it in place and use a few mechanical fasteners to hold it in place. Once the silicone sets up it will stay there pretty well When we installed corian counter tops they can only be siliconed in place. They are a bitch to get off but you can still pop the silicone. Don't use liquid nails. It's basically permanent. If you have problems with a fastening site then add a new cleat where it's easier to access.

Another option if you are putting the teak nose back on is to laminate your top. Pre drill and counter sink some holes into the edge of the top and catch the front edge of the face frame. Use a finishing screw with a small head and square drive then apply the teak bull nose to the front edge. That will hide the screws and make it assessable should you need to remove it later. On my boat I have a teak back solace of sorts. I can pre drill and countersink the screws through the top then hide them under the back splash.
I always assume I may have to gain access again so I plan for it

 

[Panta Rei]

You don't want to screw in top down. If you have to remove it you can't and anyone trying to later will destroy everything trying to get it apart. First and foremost and angle drill is your friend. You can also silicone it in place and use a few mechanical fasteners to hold it in place. Once the silicone sets up it will stay there pretty well When we installed corian counter tops they can only be siliconed in place. They are a bitch to get off but you can still pop the silicone. Don't use liquid nails. It's basically permanent. If you have problems with a fastening site then add a new cleat where it's easier to access.

Another option if you are putting the teak nose back on is to laminate your top. Pre drill and counter sink some holes into the edge of the top and catch the front edge of the face frame. Use a finishing screw with a small head and square drive then apply the teak bull nose to the front edge. That will hide the screws and make it assessable should you need to remove it later. On my boat I have a teak back solace of sorts. I can pre drill and countersink the screws through the top then hide them under the back splash.
I always assume I may have to gain access again so I plan for it

Great stuff.

The counter top was attached to the face frame. Then the counter/cabinet assembly was attached to the bulkhead by sinking screws through from the forward side of the bulkhead. I was very fortunate that the counter top was CDX plywood and was no longer sound. I could peal it up layer by layer. The moister from the Icebox delaminated the plywood. Fortunately there was no place for it to go.

The new counter top is cut. I've started work on insulating the top of of the icebox. I used 250psi foam board. It was a few dollars more but it sands very well. I hope to start fiberglassing it tomorrow.

Laminate is on order. I'll cut the sink in soon.

I plan to order the three burner Force 10 range tomorrow. It looks like a perfect fit.

All and all it was much easier than I expected. I'm temped to take on the icebox on the starboard side but I have not yet figured out how they put that together. I was lucky on the port side, I might not push my luck.

The photos show work on insulating the top of the icebox. I used what I term, "carpenter in a can" after I sprayed mold release on the icebox interior. I'll then fiberglass the inserts.

 

[Panta Rei]

I agree with your idea of screwing from the top then install laminate. Only issue is the contact cement will not allow you any forgiveness if you misalign the installation of the laminate. You may want to find a way to guide it into position maybe leave a little material in the sink opening for a couple studs, then cut off that part after you install the laminate. Another suggestion for improvement, if yours is like mine, around the sink there is no means to prevent water from getting under the surrounding wood. Really need something like a bead of caulk all around to trap the water to prevent seapage. You should coat all surfaces of the plywood with epoxy to make it somewhat waterproof so you aren't doing this again any time soon.
On another note I am amazed at how good the insulation is in the icebox compared to any portable cooler. You mention it is like 2" of foam? Thats some good R factor. Even the side you said could use more still has dead air space around it that provides insulation. All foam does is provide dead air to slow the heat transfer rate, also known as Q dot. So dead air is the secret, fiberglass insulation in a house does the same thing it is not the glass that insulates but all the trapped air provided by the nice fluffy fiberglass.

Jibes makes a few very important points!! Yes, I too saw the week link where water can get under the wood. This is the problem that started this particular project. The area around the faucets was completely rotted. All from water seeping around the laminate. Anyone doing a survey of an O'day should give a rap on the laminate in this area.

Yes, 2" inches of foam on every wall. That's the minimal recommended TODAY! O'day was on top of this well back in the 80's. I plan to put refrigeration in the starboard box. Nothing needs to be done but insulate the top which is something very few boats did prior to 2000.

Jibes your note was timely. I remembered that I had some extra insulation after I read your note. Notice the added insulation in the photo.(click on the photo to enlarge) It's only on the port side and a portion of the forward and aft sides but every little bit helps. The insulation adds a more finished surface to wipe spills ECT. I notice the other areas around the box where I could not get the fiberglass insulation had a 1/4" air gap between the foam and the wood cabinet walls. Again someone was doing some real engineering here.

The lesson I've taken away from this job and comments from Jibes and tcwaltz is that I was very lucking the plywood was de-laminating. I could simply peel away each layer. I would have been in real trouble had the plywood been sound. What I should have done is to think like these guys knowing the plugged screws were installed last. I should have removed ALL plugged screws. Even the ones on the other side of the bulkhead in the salon. They were the key. Once removed , the entire cabinet could be removed from the bulkhead exposing the backside of the cabinet and the screws holding the icebox to the underside of the counter top. The icebox was the big problem here for the O'day engineers. It has to be mounted to the underside but it would have been impossible to do if the cabinet was built like usual. There is simply no way to reach the screws.
Now my challenge going forward.... The Ice box must weigh a lot when full of beer, my guess 100 lbs. The port half of the box is sitting on a boat's grid pan. The starboard side needs support (hence the screws holding it onto the counter top. I placed a wood support under the 2" lip. I hope this will be enough to hold it. I put my body weight on the box and it seems to be sturdy. I may add a support under the box as well.

I think have learned another lesson. I will be posting more of what I plan to do rather than what I did. This gives me the benefit of all your incites which have proven to be very valuable.

 

[Panta Rei]

Here are the near finish inserts. Not my best bondo job but they will be under the countertop and can not be seen. All that is important is a smooth surface that will not foster mold.
So after doing this just once I think I have an easy process. About three to four hours of work. Each time I do glass work and bondo at home I'm risking my wife leaving me. I must work has when she is away. Unfortunately , the odor hangs on forever.
So here is the process:

Rough cut the foam board. I spent too much time on this trying to get it perfect. Not needed! Just get it close. (see next step)

Spray mold release on interior IceBox walls. Apply window foam sealant (carpenter in a can) filling all gaps. Remove when cured. see first photo (click to enlarge)

Use Epoxy (will not melt the foam) and glass the inserts on three sides leaving the side facing the counter top alone (top side of insert). I did this on release paper with the the top of the insert down. Keep a two inch lip around the perimeter. Place the inserts back into the IceBox as the epoxy is hardening.

Next day remove the inserts. Should be a perfect fit since the window foam is soft and will allow for the thickness of the composite.

Bondo the bottom and the side exposed to the opening. Paint .

I intend to install them when I install the countertop. Laminate is on order.


Back to varnishing the two aft cabins. Three burner range from Force 10 is on order. Should be here next week.

Starting to think about an anchor windlass. I like the free fall units but I will need to get one of them under the chain locker cover. I was planning to add this next year but being at a stainless shop, there is no time like the present.

 

[jibes138]

I hate to give up all my secrets but here is some more advice on insulation. Many years ago they invented something called a space blanket. It was basically a thin sheet of bubble wrap with aluminum foil bonded to each side, very thin, maybe a 1/4" . I cut a piece the shape of the ice box and after all the ice food and drinks go in you lay that on top of everything. This provides the insulation for the top since the boat didn't come with the top insulated. Remember that in this universe heat flows (and all energy for that matter) from high potential to low potential. So you are trying to keep the heat out not keep the cold in. I don't know if space blankets are around any more but you could use some modern bubble wrap for the same purpose. It works great. I can keep ice in my main icebox for 5 to 7 days depending on the outside temperature. My portable coolers last maybe a day maximum two days. (these are cheap coolers).
Another trick for you. Ice comes in various ranges of coldness. The highest of course being about 31 degrees. But ice will be as cold as you want to freeze it at. The ice you buy is very warm since they want to sell you more ice. The ice you make at home is much colder. So make your own ice and make large blocks instead of cubes. Lower surface area will transfer heat slower. I use large rubbermaid or similar containers, fill with water, put in freezer and when frozen, run the container upside down under hot water faucet for a few seconds, the ice pops right out. Containers need to be flexible as hard plastic will crack when the ice expands. Now take the big block of ice and put it back in the freezer in a plastic bag to get it really cold again.
When I go to the boat for a week I will take a large portable cooler completely filled with just blocks of ice. Then I line the ice box bottom with blocks followed by frozen meats, and any other food requiring good coldness and not accessed much (milk for instance).
Use a portable cooler for drinks. As the week progresses use the meat as it thaws in the cooler. Minimize opening the food cooler and you will get a week out of it. Dry ice can also be purchased (about minus 100 degrees) but I've never tried it.

 

[tcwaltz]

Great stuff is your friend. It expands to fill voids and is a good adhesive. Something else to consider. Install a petcock in the drain line. Cold air falls. Since the drain line goes to the bilge you are constantly losing cool air out that line and allowing warm air in. Everything matters on the boat. Fiberglass is not a particularly good insulator. What we use is sheet PVC like you'd use on shower walls. I've been working on and insulated lid for my boat. I have layered some plywood as a mold. My next step is to heat the PVC and shape it around the mold. Then I plan to attach it to my lid drill a small hole and fill it with great stuff foam. My father in law has done this kind of thing with his icebox and it stays super cold with very little run time.

 

[Panta Rei]

Jibes,
How about this stuff? It's sitting in my garage awaiting to be installed when I put in the head liner. Coming real soon. I'll save some left overs for the icebox. I like your ice plan. Even with my navigation skills I should be able to hit land every 5 to 7 days.

Tcwaltz,
Great idea. So now that you have the tooling , you should be able to make more for us. If I know O'day, all the icebox lids may all be the same size. My two lids are identical at 14 1/2" X 11 3/4" inside dimension. Where do I send the check?

 

[tcwaltz]

God that sounds about right lol

 

[ruidh]

I'm currently using the foil bubble wrap to add some insulation to a 23. The Ice box was molded into the one piece cabin liner and insulated with slabs of styrofoam glued in. The styrofoam wasn't even airtight and had gaps. I had to cut an access hole in the fiberglass to be able to reach in there.

I had some of the bubble wrap set into the inside top of the ice box last season and it worked pretty well. They have special aluminum tape to seal edges with. I recommend that as well.

I'm planning on putting a rubber stopper in the drain line rather than a petcock in the fairly inaccessible drain hose area.


Ice Box Reinsulation by ruidh, on Flickr

I made tops a few years ago from some sheet PVC and screwed cutting boards on to for a work surface next to the stove and sink.


Sink and Icebox by ruidh, on Flickr


Cutting Boards in the Galley by ruidh, on Flickr

 

[Panta Rei]

PVC

Started searching for PVC sheets per advice. My major concern is the rounded
sides of my icebox that follow the hull shape. Very space efficient but other 39 owners say it causes everything to slide to the bottom in one big pile. (Can't stack items and have them stay put)
I' think I'll try making partitions out of this. What do you think?

 

[Panta Rei]

So I will be combine Jibes and Ruidh's ideas to solve the same problem (lack of top insulation)on the starboard side Icebox. This Icebox may get refrigeration some day so I don't want to tear into it just yet. I'm thinking of using the aluminized bubble rap and adhere it to the underside of the counter top inside the Icebox. two or three layers . I think I can make it look OK using the special aluminum tape Ruidh mentined. If not , it will be easy to remove and try something else.
I'm waiting for the TCWaltz Ice box lid company to be open for business but I am afraid the entire company is likely out sailing.
Next item hinges. The lids are going to be bulky with 2" of insulation on them. I'd like to hinge the one in the galley so it can be opened and handled with one hand. I'm thinking of using an extended arm hatch hinge. I plan to attach the side with the long arm on the cover as close to the edge as possible. I then will locate the other leaf (the one with the pins) farther back from the edge on the counter. This should allow the cover to close perpendicular to the counter keeping the 2" insulation on the cover from hitting the 2" insulation inside the icebox. What do you think?