I'll Never go to Florida Again

[jax]

Wow according to most of these posting I get the feeling I live in a 3rd world country made up of criminals, illegal alien, undesirables, transplants. It must be nice that most of you are coming from utopia states and countries, which has no criminals, aliens, transplants or undesirables. I really don’t understand why you would want to visit a dangerous state made up of such people with a corrupt law enforcement.
Strange though, I know most area requires me to know their laws and regulations when visiting and don’t accept the “I didn’t know it was a violation” as a defense. But I guess I should petition the state to waive the requirement for travelers to know the laws and regulations of the state and localities. It only seems fair that non-residents should not be burden by the same requirements as local residents.
Get real it’s not happening
Here are two links to help you understand the laws that would pertain to y’all
Acceptable certification of title
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0328/Sections/0328.03.html
Reciprocity of nonresident or alien vessels</SPAN>
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0328/Sections/0328.58.html
If you are unable to meet these requirements you have two choices: Register your boat or don’t bring your boat to Florida.
How to avoid the 90 day rule don’t stay at a marina. Marina are required to collect your information and report violators of any laws
For those of you wanting to avoid or boycott Florida because you object to their laws, by all means do. The Gulf Stream is still pretty close to and easy to cross at the Florida border if you’re heading to the Caribbean.
Here let me give you a new thread to start with a more current topic: Is it legal to carry a gun either, on your person when on the boat, or in your boat when traveling the ICW

 

[Kettlewell]

Jax, Roger is reacting to the apparently unique law Florida has that requires out of state CG documented boats to also be state registered, which I don't believe any other state requires from visitors and may actually be in conflict with federal documentation law. It would be like you driving to Maine for a vacation in your Florida registered car, and then being required at the Maine border to get your car inspected because that is the law in Maine. Nobody is arguing that states can't have their own rules, just that it would be a bit friendlier if they allowed visitors to come into the state for the first 90 days without hassle, like just about every other state does. I keep my boat in Massachusetts, and it is documented, and there is no state registration for documented boats in Mass., so I would have the same problem trying to visit Florida right now.

 

[Tom J]

Turnabout is fair play, I guess. My boat is homeported in Englewood, FL, but I keep her now in Quincy, MA, and I pay an excise tax every year to the city of Quincy. She is documented, and, since Massachusetts doesn't require state registration of documented vessels, she doesn't have a current state sticker. She does have a mooring sticker for the city of Quincy. I still have my old FL sticker on the portlight, and after reading these posts, I think I'll keep it there. When I cruise to FL again in a year or two, at least I can show that the sales tax was paid, evidenced by the FL sticker.
All this discussion of the FL regs reminds me of the huge problem that FL towns and counties faced a few years ago, that probably spawned the regs. Back then, derelict boats were everywhere. Some boats were actually live-aboards that neglected to care for their boats. Many were boats left at anchor or tied to mangroves while the owners went north for the summer. Needless to say, a lot of them sank at their anchors, or ended up stranded in the mangroves. So the towns and counties were left with the bill to get rid of them.
Anyway, nowadays, a lot of towns have gotten rid of anchorages and now have mooring fields. Not a popular solution with a lot of us cruisers, but I have to say, it seems to have worked. When I was in Marathon in 2006, many derelict boats were swinging at anchor, and several were piled up on shore, waiting to be cut up by the city marina. I returned in 2010, and didn't notice any derelicts, and the mooring field was neat and orderly, and easy to use (cheap, too).
So these regs may be a pain to deal with for a while, but maybe the level of enforcement is commensurate with the amount of problems the town/county has had in the past. I'd like to think that a well-found vessel would not be likely to be harassed by local law enforcement, even if it is from out of state.

 

[jax]

Kettlewell, I know what Roger and others are complaining about. However lets adjust your comparison so it’s similar to the situation being complained about. I drive my car up to Massachusetts except my state does not issue plates or titles (registrations) for cars purchased in Florida. Would I have a problem?

 

[anchorclanker]

Wow according to most of these posting I get the feeling I live in a 3rd world country made up of criminals, illegal alien, undesirables, transplants. It must be nice that most of you are coming from utopia states and countries, which has no criminals, aliens, transplants or undesirables.

I think you mis-read a bit. Most here (me at least), acknowledged that Florida is inundated with people from close to half the the US, Canada, and Europe, that Florida has had, or having still, a problem with transients from other states/countries, living on their boats in abject poverty, and that the state of Florida is acting on it. I don't believe anyone here thinks them acting on it is a bad thing. Again, and to be clear, were acknowledging the worst offenders are likely from outside Florida.

However, there does appear to be two other issues that need some addressing. First, there appears to be strong evidence that the state has some very confusing statutes on registration and visitation, and secondly, an overabundance of overzealous police. That the two issues are a result of transient boaters, and that these two issues seem to combine to the point of harassment to ALL visitors, is at the root of this discussion.

Florida's primary income is tourist based. Y'all can puff out your chests and pretend a few million visitors dont matter to the state, but I would argue that they do. I have driven all over the country and have never really been questioned by Police unless I was doing something wrong. And thats the kind of treatment ive grown to expect. I would not expect to be treated differently aboard a boat simply because I come to visit. However, if being harassed by Florida police over confusing statutes, (or at least confusing the police themselves) is the "modus operandi", and its residents support that kind of practice, we can all go somewhere else.

 

[jax]

Anchorclanker, The statutes are pretty clear but just in case I’ve attach an information document from the Florida department of revenue; since everything is really about money. Please note the Florida’s Safe Harbor Act portion. The problem seems to be for those few primarily from states which do not issue a title/registration and think it’s unfair and want to see it changed. Every State has a limitation on the number of days before the vessel must be registered in that State and it’s not like they will hunt you down. It’s more of unlucky day situation if you get busted. However it’s still you the visitor obligation to make sure you are in compliance with the law. A person can call any Florida tax collectors offices to get their questioned answered. We get a lot of boater however I believe your number is a little high and if the harassment was to the degree being describe I’m sure it would of already impact tourism. So it’s not puffing out our chest when we say don’t visit if you are unwilling to obey the laws. Besides if the strict speed limit enforced which use to be enforced, when driving through Starke did not impact tourism, I’ll guarantee this won’t either.
29 States issue titles/registrations

 

[anchorclanker]

Jax. I think you have failed to read this thread through carefully. No one is questioning the statute, they are questioning the enforcement, which again, if your read this thread, clearly shows a lot of heavy handed and misinformed police officers.

Get real, the average Joe from Timbuktu, isnt going to be calling the state to talk to someone when Joe cop is threatening them.

Also, consider the two following issues. First, the average boater wouldnt have a clue the whole state was acting this way, without a forum like this. Second, if everyone knew, you can bet something would be done.

Our job is to let everyone know. Call off your dogs or expect a drop in boat traffic.

 

[kloudie1]

Couple of things to ponder.. 1. Florida has NO state income tax; they are trying to get their fair share from folks who have their boats registered in Delaware (or a similar no tax place, and I love Delaware) and are keeping it in Florida.. 2. Louisiana has very similar laws but they don't use the law to harass folks who are coming through.. they too are trying to get money from those folks who'd previously registered their boats in Delaware and kept them in Louisiana. (think fleets of documented tugs and barges).. I have been stopped a couple of times in north western Florida but never harassed .. the officers were nice and wanted to see papers but I was not boarded.. There is a lot of commercial traffic on the west side.. I can see that on the east side, they'd be more anxious to get their money and might be more uuuhhhh diligent(?) in enforcement..

 

[RichH]

Here you go Jax ... archives from the infamous Volusia County potty inspections with guns drawn and with EXTREME intimidation as reported by many cruisers of the local legal-thugs. This kind of changed the minds of many who were thinking about wintering in Florida in 2010 and 2011, and simply caused many to simply and entirely bypass Florida for the Bahamas and further south so that they werent subject to such vulnerably DANGEROUS intimidation process. The reports you see here were only the 'tip of the iceberg' of what was actually going on as many who were intimidated by having guns stuck into their faces (for forced MSD inspections !!!!) simply didn't report nor complain.
http://cruisersnet.net/important-bo...between-new-smyrna-beach-and-mosquito-lagoon/
http://cruisersnet.net/coments-from...1310-msd-boarding-incident-in-volusia-county/

 

[Kettlewell]

I want to be clear that I still find Florida a great cruising destination and I personally am not ready to boycott the state because of a few bad interactions with water cops. I always try to have all my ducks in a row in terms of papers, registration, etc., and when I have gone there I have been careful to also have a state registration, even if my boat is documented.

But, the funny thing is, nobody, including most of the officials and the official websites are clear on exactly what the law is. Right now I am in touch with some pretty senior officials in Florida and they have told me that it will take a few days to formulate an answer to my questions. Whatever you do don't trust the local water cop or county tax office employee to be clear on the actual letter of the law. Find the actual statutes involved, print them out, bring them with you, and have them onboard. It's the same in other states, but Florida's laws seem particularly odd and confusing with regard to these issues.

 

[justsomeguy]

I want to be clear that I still find Florida a great cruising destination and I personally am not ready to boycott the state because of a few bad interactions with water cops. I always try to have all my ducks in a row in terms of papers, registration, etc., and when I have gone there I have been careful to also have a state registration, even if my boat is documented.

But, the funny thing is, nobody, including most of the officials and the official websites are clear on exactly what the law is. Right now I am in touch with some pretty senior officials in Florida and they have told me that it will take a few days to formulate an answer to my questions. Whatever you do don't trust the local water cop or county tax office employee to be clear on the actual letter of the law. Find the actual statutes involved, print them out, bring them with you, and have them onboard. It's the same in other states, but Florida's laws seem particularly odd and confusing with regard to these issues.

I'm sure the officer will appreciate that!

 

[jax]

Anchorclanker, I’m confused by your response. The thread was started because of misinformation about the statue posted on Cruisersnet. Now you are saying “No one is questioning the statute, but are questioning the enforcement”. Your prior post you claimed the stature was confusing. If enforcing the laws and doing periodic safety checks is consider harassment then I guess it’s up to every boater decide if Florida is worth visiting. Just to be clear I’ve been boarded and inspected while in my slip. Besides if I remember correctly you posted earlier that “I dont have any first-hand experience to offer”, so your basing all your opinions on here say information. Oh let me guess you believe if it’s on the web it must be true.

Kloudie1, several states that have no income tax and yes, if you are registered in Delaware but decide to store the boat in Florida you will need to register the boat in Florida; this is not unique to Florida and also applies to cars. I would disagree regarding commercial traffic, there are commercial ports on the east coast of Florida. States looking to increase revenues, I think all of them do. However the fact that Florida is a boating state and laws are enforced might seem unreasonable to non-residents.

RichH, really this is the best you can do, two links to the same story, the tip of the iceberg, give me a break.
I was below cooking bacon, We were cruising at 7 knots. 2 of the 3 officers had jumped on board and all names were withheld. I see there was a response which told a different story, of course they must be lying at least according to the sailors code. I notice this is the same site Roger got his information from hmmm.

Kettlewell, I would agree that if you feel there may be questions, definitely print it out and keep it on board. There is nothing wrong in questioning an interpretation, and having a copy of document in question gives legitimacy to your questions. However I don’t think the laws is odd or confusing, but that’s just my opinion. Place this string in your google search bar, I’m sure you’ll find your answer to your question. intext:florida VESSELS TITLE CERTIFICATES LIENS REGISTRATION.

I’m done with this thread it’s like banging your head on a wall; minds are made up and there is no changing them.

 

[Kettlewell]

Just for kicks, here is the full text of the law on reciprocity within Florida from here: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/328.58

328.58 Reciprocity of nonresident or alien vessels.—The owner of any vessel already covered by a registration number in full force and effect which has been awarded by:
(1) Another state pursuant to a federally approved numbering system of another state;
(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; or
(3) The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state,
shall record the number with the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles prior to operating, using, or storing the vessel on the waters of this state in excess of the 90-day reciprocity period provided for in this chapter. Such recordation shall be pursuant to the procedure required for the award of an original registration number, except that no additional or substitute registration number shall be issued if the vessel owner maintains the previously awarded registration number in full force and effect.
History.—s. 1, ch. 59-399; s. 1, ch. 65-361; s. 6, ch. 84-184; s. 57, ch. 96-413; s. 16, ch. 99-289; s. 25, ch. 2009-86.
Note.—Former s. 371.081; s. 327.16.

 

[anchorclanker]

Just to be clear I’ve been boarded and inspected while in my slip.

Really? I lived in Minnesota, the land of 14,000 lakes for 50 years. I have never, and I dont know anyone who was ever been boarded or inspected, while at their slip. In fact i know of no one who was ever boarded unless they had been drinking.

Again, sounds like a few too many hot headed cops with too many hot toys they need to justify the need of.

 

[jimmcgee]

But, the funny thing is, nobody, including most of the officials and the official websites are clear on exactly what the law is. Right now I am in touch with some pretty senior officials in Florida and they have told me that it will take a few days to formulate an answer to my questions.

That statement should be shocking but it's not.

Carrying a printed copy of the law won't make a difference to a cop with an attitude, which seems all to common today.

Not showing up won't get things to change. A drop in tourist dollars will get blamed on the economy, the phase of the moon or the Mayan calendar.

Here is the Web site for the Florida Tourism Board feedback page: http://www.visitflorida.com/feedback/

Better yet post to the Facebook page where others will see it: http://www.visitflorida.com/feedback/

And the governor's office:
http://www.flgov.com/contact-gov-scott/email-the-governor/

The contact page for BoatUS: http://www.boatus.com/deptdir/

Cross post these links to all the cruising sites that are jawing on this issue and encourage everyone to air their concerns and complaints on all four sites -- after all it's only cut & paste on the Web. A sudden uptick in complaints that threatens tourist dollars will get someone's attention.

That water cop could give a rat's backside about a printed copy of the law. His performance review is based on the dollar amount of tickets he writes. He might stop if slapped by a judge -- but you're not going to be around in 30 days for the court date and he knows it.

But if heat comes down from above behavior will change.

Hell harrassment of travelers might even make an intersting news story...

 

[anchorclanker]

But, the funny thing is, nobody, including most of the officials and the official websites are clear on exactly what the law is. Right now I am in touch with some pretty senior officials in Florida and they have told me that it will take a few days to formulate an answer to my questions. .

And none of the residents see a problem with this?

I agree. Blast all the sailing forums with this information until it makes enough noise to get a response.

 

[Kettlewell]

I received a response from the Florida FWC confirming that there is no reciprocity for a CG documented vessel from out of state that does not also have a state registration. Quite a few states do not require CG documented vessels to also be registered with the state. Off hand, I believe this is the case in Maine, Massachusetts, North Carolina, and South Carolina.

In short, the answer is that every boat entering Florida waters must have a state registration even if it is CG documented.

The 90-day “grace period” would not apply to these documented but not registered vessels. Here is a quote from the FWC official:

A vessel, federally documented or not, that is not covered by a registration from another state or by the USCG in a state without a federally approved numbering system, is not provided that 90 day reciprocity time and would need to register with DHSMV. Although those other states may not require registration for documented vessels I would encourage each vessel owner to inquire of their individual home state if they could voluntarily register their vessel.

 

[sea_casper]

I received a response from the Florida FWC confirming that there is no reciprocity for a CG documented vessel from out of state that does not also have a state registration. Quite a few states do not require CG documented vessels to also be registered with the state. Off hand, I believe this is the case in Maine, Massachusetts, North Carolina, and South Carolina.

In short, the answer is that every boat entering Florida waters must have a state registration even if it is CG documented.

The 90-day “grace period” would not apply to these documented but not registered vessels. Here is a quote from the FWC official:

This seems to be counter to the Florida statutes concerning reciprocity, specifically;

"(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system;"

For those cruisers staying longer than 90 days there is the "Sojourner Registration" which costs ~$3/ft, and avoids the Florida registration and sales tax hassle.
Info here

 

[Kettlewell]

(2) The United States Coast Guard in a state without a federally approved numbering system; or

That refers to a time in the past when several states did not have state registration systems and the US Coast Guard took care of providing numbers for those state registered boats. I know it used to be that way in Alaska and I think New Hampshire, but I'm not sure any states still do this.

It's #3 that is operative for documented boats:

(3) The United States Coast Guard for a federally documented vessel with a valid registration in full force and effect from another state,

 

[Roger Long]

For those cruisers staying longer than 90 days there is the "Sojourner Registration" which costs ~$3/ft, and avoids the Florida registration and sales tax hassle. Info here

If you look closely at that form, you will see that a Florida street address is mandatory. Apparently, they did not intend it to apply to people cruising through Florida in a boat but owners or renters of Florida property who wished to bring their boats to enjoy using that property as a base.

Sure, you can probably get away with using a marina address but the whole thrust of just about every policy and attitude in the state is to discourage cruising as most of us here understand it.

Georgia has its own nutty law, the one that says that no one, resident or visitor, can sleep for more than a total of 30 nights in a year on their boat. However, it has never been enforced as far as I know and has not be accompanied buy the wacko law enforcement so common in Florida.