Ideal trailerable sailboat - theoretical approach

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
How about this??


Jackdaw
-> I did mention the First 25S on first page. It is very good looking boat. May I ask what is the landed price (send a PM if you don't want to post price in the open)
I'm expecting the sail-away price of the 25S from a Beneteau USA dealer to be around US$75K. That's with North sails package, electronics, and the diesel standard. NOT sure if that will include a trailer, ours was custom built.

The boat CAN be trailer launch and retrieved. We used a long tow strap. To lower the mast we used a quick-and-dirty A-frame, as at our club be have a crane. The A-frame in your pictures looks well founded. Only issue with mast it its very long length, with over 35 feet of stick.
 
May 3, 2008
252
Catalina Capri 22 Half Moon Bay
Surprised nobody mentioned the Elan 210...
...since the conversation went beyond what's easily available in North America.
A super modern shape. Some nice, simple ideas inside. But...
Waaaay too complicated for a 21 ft yacht! :confused:

I'm with Clay (Jackdaw)...
Les petits voiliers de Beneteau sont belles! F-20 and F-25S
Both have been in production as previous versions for a while, but still very beautiful, modern designs!

Listening to everyone lament about what they want reminds me of the Sheryl Crow song...
"It's not having what you want..."
"It's wanting what you've got..."

It's all a compromise.
The trick is figure out what you actually want out of a yacht.

Because when you talk about "trailerable"
You'd better keep it simple!
Simple is good. (axiom to live by) :D

-JAMES-
"Bella Barchetta"
Capri 22

On my way down the coast to Santa Cruz for the weekend...
Capri 22 in tow & my kayak on top of the trusty Honda...
Stopped for a photo at Pigeon Pt Lighthouse...





 
Oct 6, 2011
678
CM 32 USA
If we are speaking theory, and we are building a new sailboat, how about we step back a few years and see what designers, respected designers, were building in the heyday of small sailboat yachts in California. The 1970's. I know more about William Crealock than other designers, as I own two of his designs, so I will speak about his goals for the largest trailerable sailboats of his time, the CM30, and CM32. Bill Crealock is universally recognized as one of the best blue water sailboat designers.

A trailer sailboat maker, Clipper Marine of southern California, and Mexico, commissioned Bill Crealock to design a sailboat with five main goals. Safety, transportability, speed, cruising comforts, and affordable. Bill was up to the challenge, and designed sailboats from 21 feet to 32 feet, and within the specifications goals.

One of the neatest design aspects of his larger CM models, was an enclosed engine well, that housed an off the shelf two stroke 9.9 to 15 hp outboard. While sailing, the engine could be raised to give the boat the best lines through the water. The sailboats looked great, because no unsightly outboard was sticking out of the stern, they were completely hidden from view He also used Yanmar diesel engines as inboards if the customer ordered it that way, in 8, 12 and 20 hp.

His designs were also quick for his time, with most having a hull speed of about 7 knots. My CM32 has a hull speed of 7.34.

Where any designer runs into grief later, is trying to balance, great looks, while trying to keep down costs. Gel coat over fiberglass is much more cost effective than Exotic marine woods, but over time, when one builds to serve economy, later criticisms show up, saying boats were poorly made. Polished interior gelcoat is not for the limousine jet set, however, that design feature does last the test of time quite well, and is easy to maintain at a new sailboat condition, somethings woods seldom do, with continual Maintance

If I were going to build a sailboat today, I would do two models as knock offs from Bill Crealock concepts, with a couple modern twists. I would have a beam of 8.5' rather than the 8.0' he used, and I would update the stern to an easy to use sugar scoop design. I would sell a 28 and a 35, using his designs from his 26 and 32.

I would keep them trailerable, light and strong with carbon fiber as well as fiberglass. The 35 would be offered, as before in sloop and ketch designs, except I would offer the ketch, as a cutter ketch with a bow spirit rather than a smaller bow pulpit. Two cockpit designs would be used again, center cockpit, and stern cockpit. Center cockpit models would come with a separate companionway aft owners cabin.

The business partner of Bill Crealock is still alive, still designing boats in southern California. Would not be impossible for this guy to get involved in a latter day revamp of a very successful sailboat line.

Want to get fanciful in this sailboat design? Modern? High tech?

Sell a 35 with two matching jet skis. All electronically matched. From the cockpit of the sailboat, your jet skis are 100% controllable On docking, the jet skis attach themselves with auto locks, so your sailboat is guided into your slip like miniature tug boats. On the lake, the jet skis could be programed to circle you, throwing rooster tails, or they could automatically follow your course for an entourage fore and aft. The jet skis could also be used for guests and family to play on. Keeping the beam narrow, two also narrow jet skis on each side of the sailboat, would still fit in most slips designed for 35 feet long sailboats. Too narrow of a slip, no problem, have one automatically disengage and lock on to double up on one side when slipped. This idea would lend itself well for folks using mooring balls. With a remote control, one ot two jet skis disembark, and meet you at the docks.

The jet skis could be left in place, for times you want more stability on the sailboat. Less heeling, or partying in a cove.

Want to win that race? Add 10% thrust. Who would know back at the marina? Lol

Attached jet skis have been done on powerboats, but not on sailboats, to my knowledge. A triskismaran.
 
Jul 1, 2010
962
Catalina 350 Lake Huron
I was with you 'til you got to the jet skis. Hate those things. They're like mosquitoes on the water. There should be something commercially available, stronger than deet to fend them off (that wouldn't land you in jail if you used it).
 
May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
^ the 4 stroke skis are quieter, but the operators are no smarter.


seaward 32' FTW.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
If we are speaking theory, and we are building a new sailboat, how about we step back a few years and see what designers, respected designers, were building in the heyday of small sailboat yachts in California. The 1970's. I know more about William Crealock than other designers, as I own two of his designs, so I will speak about his goals for the largest trailerable sailboats of his time, the CM30, and CM32. Bill Crealock is universally recognized as one of the best blue water sailboat designers.

A trailer sailboat maker, Clipper Marine of southern California, and Mexico, commissioned Bill Crealock to design a sailboat with five main goals. Safety, transportability, speed, cruising comforts, and affordable. Bill was up to the challenge, and designed sailboats from 21 feet to 32 feet, and within the specifications goals.

One of the neatest design aspects of his larger CM models, was an enclosed engine well, that housed an off the shelf two stroke 9.9 to 15 hp outboard. While sailing, the engine could be raised to give the boat the best lines through the water. The sailboats looked great, because no unsightly outboard was sticking out of the stern, they were completely hidden from view He also used Yanmar diesel engines as inboards if the customer ordered it that way, in 8, 12 and 20 hp.

His designs were also quick for his time, with most having a hull speed of about 7 knots. My CM32 has a hull speed of 7.34.

Where any designer runs into grief later, is trying to balance, great looks, while trying to keep down costs. Gel coat over fiberglass is much more cost effective than Exotic marine woods, but over time, when one builds to serve economy, later criticisms show up, saying boats were poorly made. Polished interior gelcoat is not for the limousine jet set, however, that design feature does last the test of time quite well, and is easy to maintain at a new sailboat condition, somethings woods seldom do, with continual Maintance

If I were going to build a sailboat today, I would do two models as knock offs from Bill Crealock concepts, with a couple modern twists. I would have a beam of 8.5' rather than the 8.0' he used, and I would update the stern to an easy to use sugar scoop design. I would sell a 28 and a 35, using his designs from his 26 and 32.

I would keep them trailerable, light and strong with carbon fiber as well as fiberglass. The 35 would be offered, as before in sloop and ketch designs, except I would offer the ketch, as a cutter ketch with a bow spirit rather than a smaller bow pulpit. Two cockpit designs would be used again, center cockpit, and stern cockpit. Center cockpit models would come with a separate companionway aft owners cabin.

The business partner of Bill Crealock is still alive, still designing boats in southern California. Would not be impossible for this guy to get involved in a latter day revamp of a very successful sailboat line.
I don't agree. It would be like bringing back the 1978 Ford LTD wagon.

Technology has vastly improved, boat design has improved, and how people use and what they expect of boats has moved on.

If you look at the modern uber-trailorable, The key is easy of use. It has a fractional rig, and non-overlapping headsail, and a broad transom. These things make for easy sailing handling, and lots of room inside. They also fly asym off of small sprits, and are optimized to be stable off the wind.
 
Oct 6, 2011
678
CM 32 USA
I don't agree. It would be like bringing back the 1978 Ford LTD wagon.

Technology has vastly improved, boat design has improved, and how people use and what they expect of boats has moved on.

If you look at the modern uber-trailorable, The key is easy of use. It has a fractional rig, and non-overlapping headsail, and a broad transom. These things make for easy sailing handling, and lots of room inside. They also fly asym off of small sprits, and are optimized to be stable off the wind.
Had a friend move his hunter 33 across Texas, Oklohoma, Kansas and Nebraska. He was two days on the phone arranging permits for an over size wide load. Big bucks. I trailered my CM32 across Cal, Nev, Utah ,Colo, and Nebraska. No permits, no hastles. Ease of use for a trailerable sailboat is 8.5' beam. No getting around that, as more TSA agents flock beyond just airports, coming to a check point near you.

Boats today are made like anything else being made, cheep. What costs more, a bow pulpet or a bow spirit? Does not matter which has better visual lines or which increases the joy of boat ownership, sell the one that can turn a larger profit margin in a Chinese makes everything economy.
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
I don't agree. It would be like bringing back the 1978 Ford LTD wagon.

Technology has vastly improved, boat design has improved, and how people use and what they expect of boats has moved on.

If you look at the modern uber-trailorable, The key is easy of use. It has a fractional rig, and non-overlapping headsail, and a broad transom. These things make for easy sailing handling, and lots of room inside. They also fly asym off of small sprits, and are optimized to be stable off the wind.
I must agree. If a company would like to introduce a line of new trailerable sailboats / sailing yachts, in order to survive they have to be sold world-wide. They must be modern-looking and up to date - following vehicle analogy, there is a reason why majority of vehicles manufactured by US car makers is NOT sold outside of North America (with the exception of Ford, which made smart move of bringing their entire world-line of vehicles to North America, as opposed making a world version of Focus and US version of Focus which were very different cars. Following the example, the new "Fusion" is actually Mondeo sold anywhere else...but why lack of diesel motors??). Back to the topic. North American designers in order to be competitive world-wide must get out of the stagnation and start drawing modern boats, which will find more buyers. Classic-looking boats are a very small market niche...one is not going to survive selling two boats per year.

Sail123 said:
Had a friend move his hunter 33 across Texas, Oklohoma, Kansas and Nebraska. He was two days on the phone arranging permits for an over size wide load. Big bucks. I trailered my CM32 across Cal, Nev, Utah ,Colo, and Nebraska. No permits, no hastles. Ease of use for a trailerable sailboat is 8.5' beam. No getting around that, as more TSA agents flock beyond just airports, coming to a check point near you.
2,55m (8.5') beam is the non-permit standard for US, Canada and EU. My boat at 2,98m (9.8') does require a permit to tow, but in the province of AB I paid CAD $76 for year long period. So the permit fee is state/province dependant. Anything over 3m (9.84') wide become very expensive as pilot vehicle is required (again, Canadian regulation - not sure how it is for US).

Here are some concepts of upcoming trailerable boats in the 2013:

Maxus 22




Haker 23


Haker 750




Sedna 23




Sedna 26, just arrived this year
 
May 3, 2008
252
Catalina Capri 22 Half Moon Bay
Some sweet looking renderings!
Where does the Haker come from?

-JAMES-
"Bella Barchetta"
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
James,

I didn't look but I'm guessing Poland. A lot of the cool boats that Bosman has posted are from a newer class of boats called Polish lake boats. Normally a bit plus or minus of the very popular 7.5 meter length, have lifting heels and powerful rigs. Several Polish designers and builders are involved, origianlly for the large Polish market created when fuel was VERY expensive under communist rule. Now they are also exported; the UK being a market that has received them well. When I lived in the UK Ii remember the press there liked them in general, but suggests they might indeed be better lake boats and the sea might be a bit much for them. Most are good looking.

PS the First 25s is 7.5 meters long.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Had a friend move his hunter 33 across Texas, Oklohoma, Kansas and Nebraska. He was two days on the phone arranging permits for an over size wide load. Big bucks. I trailered my CM32 across Cal, Nev, Utah ,Colo, and Nebraska. No permits, no hastles. Ease of use for a trailerable sailboat is 8.5' beam. No getting around that, as more TSA agents flock beyond just airports, coming to a check point near you.

Boats today are made like anything else being made, cheep. What costs more, a bow pulpet or a bow spirit? Does not matter which has better visual lines or which increases the joy of boat ownership, sell the one that can turn a larger profit margin in a Chinese makes everything economy.
Sail,

I not sure I understand what you are saying. I didn't say they need to be over 8.5 feet in beam. And boat with sprints also have pulpits.

Modern design and manufacturing techniques allow for boats to be built much more cost effectively (in the USA too), but going to market with a boats that needs to sell for $70000 is serious business. There is a reason that the new trailerable boats look like they do now and not like a boat from the 60s. The people that are betting their business on making them have listened to their customers.

If they offered a new CM trailerable for $55k, would you be in line to buy it? :)
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
aviatorjames => Jackdaw is right, the photos of the boats I have posted do come from the European Union, Poland to be specific. This country is currently the largest boat manufacturer right now, right after the US. Here is a good video promoting Polish boat building industry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFgOUwpn6ng&feature=player_embedded

While some boats can be described as the lake boats, as Jackdaw has put it very precisely (CE category C, may I add that the MacGregors sold in EU also have C category), most of them are available in the category B specifications making them perfect coastal cruisers. It is worth mentioning that TES Yachts sold in Canada are manufactured to the offshore B category.

The manufacturer of the Haker is being kept confidential until the boat's premiere some time next year.
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Personally, I find price range of about 35K for a new bare boat (ie no trailer or outboard, but otherwise in a turn-key state) reasonable for a vessel in the range of 24-26 feet reasonable. Add 5-6K for a good double axle trailer with surge brakes and another 3-4K for an outboard and we are in the neighborhood of 45K for a new boat. The pricing on boats seems to be exponential as a factor of lenght, however. Nicely equipped 28 footer goes for a about 75K and up (complete boat with no trailer or auxiliary propulsion).
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Personally, I find price range of about 35K for a new bare boat (ie no trailer or outboard, but otherwise in a turn-key state) reasonable for a vessel in the range of 24-26 feet reasonable. Add 5-6K for a good double axle trailer with surge brakes and another 3-4K for an outboard and we are in the neighborhood of 45K for a new boat. The pricing on boats seems to be exponential as a factor of lenght, however. Nicely equipped 28 footer goes for a about 75K and up (complete boat with no trailer or auxiliary propulsion).
Regarding cost vs length... there IS a direct correlation as you note, but there is also a nasty bump in the curve when a smallish boat becomes a 'yacht' (for want of a better term) and gets all the systems and costs of a bigger boat but in a smaller size. If you are counting a diesel, full head and galley with water systems, this happens in the 26-28 foot range and is an awkward place to price boats for the makers. Typically the build cost difference a 26 and 29 foot yacht is only several hundred dollars of resin and fiberglass matting. The VOLUME in a boat is free!

Outboards become more and more problematic over 24 feet. Beyond the issues with maneuverability and safety in a seaway, the convenience of a diesel is well worth the cost when amortized over the lifetime of the boat. IMO outboards are used in these types of boats only to lower the purchase cost for the buyer into a predetermined range.

Regarding manufacture, when buying new I look to a company that has permanent and long lasting representation in the county when you live and bought the boat. Often, a big claim or two will cause an small importer to shut down rather than pay the cost of the claim(s). This happens all the time. When you buy an imported boat, you are not buying it from the big overseas company, you are buying it from the local importer. Part of the purchase price when buying imported needs to go supporting the local sales, service, and warranty costs. If it does not its likely that the importer will not be there when you need them.
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
I absolutely agree on the boat size vs man-hour vs material costs. There is no going around it until a magic "robot" is designed to automate laying down each layer of woven after another and ensuring proper saturation with resins. Some steps can be automated (for instance, Bavaria uses robots to apply gelcoat to the mould and CNC plotters to cut out wood parts), but human factor will always be there.

With your comments on the outboards vs diesel, I agree and disagree. Yes, outboard will never be as efficient as diesel inboard but latter does add $7K + to price of the vessel. One option that does work well in bad weather conditions is an outboard mounted in a well, that can be raised and lowered.

10hp OB in the raised position


This does provide near-diesel performance at significantly lesser cost. Another option that has received good reviews from users on the Baltic Sea and the Mediterranean is an engine lift system as pictured below. This allows to drop the motor really deep and is very well build. Friend of mine was very successfully using this very setup on his Magnam 28 (15hp Tohatsu) during gale at Lake Ontario and 8ft waves. No problems with the prop getting out of the water. Bottom line is, most owners of trailerable boats do no make it a habit of sailing out during bad weather. For marina manoeuvring, if there is a 30kn cross wind, diesel or not, at slow speeds freeboard will make it difficult to dock.

TES 720 as equipped for sale in Canada.



Post-sale support is a different issue. For one, boats that go out of the country must be double and triple checked to ensure there are no issues. Afterall, it is in the boatyard's own interest and reputation to sell GOOD and RELIABLE product. A hull that does not change shape when it is pressed with a finger and a cockpit that does not crack and bent under a load of passengers. Hardware is pretty much standard (pulleys, blocks etc) anywhere in the world. So if a new boat owners comes back to the dealer with a crashed bow and bent pulpit, this would be hardly a warranty repair. On the other hand, replacement parts that are custom-build for a specific vessel should be available.

This is a good talk :)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Some of the new motor-well systems are quite clever and help keep the motor off the transom and the prop in the water. Like the ones you show! They still are a bit fiddly to deploy and start, but the compromise is much better now, I agree.

Regarding post-sale, I'm typically more worried about thing that might appear AFTER delivery. A double and triple check at the builder will find things that I'd personally expect to find during a very detailed acceptance inspection. I'm much more worried about things that would show up over time. For instance, in the mid-late 80s Beneteau used a bottom barrier system that failed after 4-5 years, giving a LARGE number of boats blisters. They picked up the tab for all of them to be fixed. A small importer would likely have folded. The 'parent' company overseas? You didn't buy the boat from them. I have friends that have had this happen to them, very costly, on a boat that was built (but not sold to them) by a VERY well known Nordic builder.

Bottom line, if I buy a new boat and expect to own it for 10+ years, I expect the outfit that sold it to me to be around that whole time, with the financial capability to make things right.
 

Bosman

.
Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Here is a neat liitle pocket cruiser - Deltania 20. The video is very simple, but shows exactly what is important - launching, shallow draft, behaviour at low tide and how a family of 4 can nicely spend some time on the weekends. The car is being towed by Peugeot the size of VW Golf. Did I mentioned enclosed head?
http://youtu.be/R2NgV8dpOUo
 
Dec 20, 2012
6
Beneteau 20 Mid Atlantic and Lakes
I'm expecting the sail-away price of the 25S from a Beneteau USA dealer to be around US$75K. That's with North sails package, electronics, and the diesel standard. NOT sure if that will include a trailer, ours was custom built.
The current price for the base 25S not including trailer is $90K once you add the trailer and few options you head north of $100.

Before we ordered the First 20 we also checked the 25S in Annapolis. It looks to me the for a single operator launching, trailing, sailing, and overall maintenance of the 20 require less effort.

For us (my 8.5 years old girl and my wife) it came down to simplicity. We owned and sailed couple of larger boats in the past and for us at this pointing time the First 20 will fit the bill.

Cheers
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The current price for the base 25S not including trailer is $90K once you add the trailer and few options you head north of $100.

Before we ordered the First 20 we also checked the 25S in Annapolis. It looks to me the for a single operator launching, trailing, sailing, and overall maintenance of the 20 require less effort.

For us (my 8.5 years old girl and my wife) it came down to simplicity. We owned and sailed couple of larger boats in the past and for us at this pointing time the First 20 will fit the bill.

Cheers
Infinity,
Thanks for the price check on the 25S. The number I got was from a dealer but he was being a bit cagey. And it might have been giving before official numbers were out.

You are right, the 25S is a much bigger boat than the 210... Lots of the launching action you describe are impossible for a single person. As for sailing, I do that solo all the time and its fine, perhaps easier than the 20 which is lighter and more dinghy-like.

Based on how you describe your needs you will love the 20. We have friends that have the 210 and they adore it. Does the 20 come with a mast raising system on the trailer? The 210 did. The mast is VERY tall for a 20 footer (well over 30 feet) and an A-frame system really helps.

If you are in a light air area you would benefit from a code 0 for upwind work... With the non-overlapping headsail you can use the extra sail area.. Just crack off a few degrees and enjoy the extra knots of boat speed.

Mods? I'd looks at adding a boomkicker right away to support the boom without a topping lift, as well as helping sail shape.

Enjoy!