Ideal trailerable sailboat - theoretical approach

rufus1138 · Nov 1, 2013

from wikipedia, makes me wonder how relevant the ce compliance really is to a marine application.

The directives requiring CE marking affect the following product groups:

Active implantable medical devices
Appliances burning gaseous fuels
Cableway installations designed to carry persons
Eco-design of energy related products
Electromagnetic compatibility
Equipment and protective systems intended for use potentially explosive atmospheres
Explosives for civil uses
Hot-water boilers
In vitro diagnostic medical devices
Lifts
Low voltage
Machinery
Measuring Instruments
Medical devices
Noise emission in the environment
Non-automatic weighing instruments
Personal protective equipment
Pressure equipment
Pyrotechnics
Radio and telecommunications terminal equipment
Recreational craft
Safety of toys
Simple pressure vessels

For a complete listing, see the New Approach website established by the European Commission and EFTA with the European Standardisation Organisations.

Jackdaw · Nov 1, 2013

rufus1138 said:
from wikipedia, makes me wonder how relevant the ce compliance really is to a marine application.

Its actually a pretty big deal. Under the CE system boats are DESIGNED and then tested to rate under system that defines their capability. In some countries (like France and Spain) it limits by law where owners are allowed to use their boats.

A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B: OFFSHORE,
Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

C: INSHORE,
Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

D: SHELTERED WATERS,
Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

finding41 · Nov 9, 2013

Bosman said:
Hi all,

Let's face it. Currently there are not really that many choices when it comes to NEW trailerable sailboats on the market in North America. It is a specific niche, we have a lot of boats which are ageing and loosing their appeal and looks as boat styling and design is changing. I would like to talk about trailerable boat(s) that we would like to see. How long? How wide? How much? What weight? What comfort features would we like to see in out "ideal" boat? Do post your ideas and thoughts, comments and suggestions. Let the imagination kick in

I shall break the ice and start. Here is what I would like to have in my "ideal" boat.

Price (ready to sail, with motor, trailer etc, "turn key package") : below $55000
Length: 24-26ft (hull length, LOA can be longer)
Beam: Maximum legal is 8'6" (no permit) in US and Canada.
Type: Centreboard/light swing keel
Draft: min 1ft, max (keel down) say around 6ft
Self righting
Standing height: min 5'8
Outboard in a well with possibility to lift it up out of the water stream
Maximum waterline length (so nearly vertical bow)
Maximum beam carried aft
Hard chimes for larger internal volume
No balsa sandwich
Enclosed head
Plenty of wood inside
Well equipped galley
Standard roller
Standard lazy jack w/integrated sail cover
Swim platform
Integrated mast lowering system to go under bridges etc on the fly
Kick up rudder
Ballast: balance of solid ballast in the hull and water ballast for towing with larger SUV

So these would be my requirements. Yes, I know the boat would have a higher freeboard, but as a boat I would use extensively on weekends or longer, I do want more comfort than comfortable sitting height.

Have you seen the Tes 28? I was quite impressed with it!
Link: http://tes-yacht.ca/Index.html

Jackdaw · Nov 10, 2013

finding41 said:
Have you seen the Tes 28? I was quite impressed with it!
Link: http://tes-yacht.ca/Index.html

They are interesting boats, too bad they are not in the states. To my eye the 28 is much like a Hunter of the same size, tying way too hard to cram 'big boat' in a small hull. The huge freeboard, limited storage, 4 berths, and a wheel on a perfect tiller size boat would make me pass.

Jackdaw · Nov 10, 2013

Bos,

Glad to hear it is available with a tiller!

They seem to be willing to try lots of innovative things; and that's cool. New ideas are why people buy new boats.

SailorJeffToo · Nov 11, 2013

Huh???

Bosman said:
Water ballast has its biggest weakness in the fact it does not work until it is above to waterline, . . .

Would someone please explain this statement for me. I just don't understand.

Jackdaw · Nov 11, 2013

SailorJeffToo said:
Would someone please explain this statement for me. I just don't understand.

Its not true.

Any material will provide resistance to keeling motion, known as righting moment. 1000 lbs of water is the same as a 1000 lbs of lead. With ONE major detail. Lead (or any other dense material) will take up much less room AND be able to to positioned low, and on the centerline, making them much more effective. But water is working all the time, just like lead. Just not as hard.

A cubic foot of lead weighs 708 lbs. Same amount of water is only 62 lbs. Over ten times as dense. It makes a BIG difference, never lose sight of that from a performance perspective.

finding41 · Nov 22, 2013

I spent allot of time looking over that TES at the Toronto boat show.
Very nice boat! (Better put together than the Jeanneau and Beneteau's I was on there!) (With exception to the 30' Beneteau.)
Really well thought out and built like a tank!

Sumner · Nov 24, 2013

SailorJeffToo said:
Originally Posted by Bosman Water ballast has its biggest weakness in the fact it does not work until it is above to waterline, . . .

Click to expand

Would someone please explain (the above) statement for me. I just don't understand.

As was mentioned simply not true. Here is a very good explanation why...

http://h260.com/water_ballast/water_ballast_index.html

If you don't trailer and slip the boat then not much need for water ballast unless you like the boat for other reasons.

We do trailer long distances and love the fact that water ballast drastically reduces towing weight. For us even if the boat didn't have it we would still love the boat for the room that it has inside and out and....

... easy of trailering, launching and living aboard for extended periods. The boat we have suits our needs perfectly and would but the boat again in an instant over anything else, but like I said it fits 'us',

Sum

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Chris & Lenore · Nov 30, 2013

finding41 said:
I spent allot of time looking over that TES at the Toronto boat show. Very nice boat! (Better put together than the Jeanneau and Beneteau's I was on there!) (With exception to the 30' Beneteau.) Really well thought out and built like a tank!

Funny thing about the Tes. I liked what I saw at the boat show too. Well designed, well built, very "technical" (nothing rig wise you would need to add). But when a friend mentioned it on the TSBB forum it was literally torn to shreds! Everyone thought it was the worse thing they had ever seen (none of them had actually seen on in the flesh).
It was the strangest reaction I have ever seen.

I sailed with one on the North Channel one summer. I didn't change my opinion - if anything, it's the trailer sailor I would take over any other. Of course there is that price tag - can't imagine ever buying a new boat...

Chris

Meriachee · Dec 3, 2013

The Huzaer 28 is a pretty sweet looking rig. The cockpit seating looks a little "airportish" for me, but the control placement looks great, except that buddy seems to think that the winch is a foot rest. This thing would be a fun toy for Wednesday nights!

finding41 · Dec 5, 2013

holdech said:
Funny thing about the Tes. I liked what I saw at the boat show too. Well designed, well built, very "technical" (nothing rig wise you would need to add). But when a friend mentioned it on the TSBB forum it was literally torn to shreds! Everyone thought it was the worse thing they had ever seen (none of them had actually seen on in the flesh).
It was the strangest reaction I have ever seen.

I sailed with one on the North Channel one summer. I didn't change my opinion - if anything, it's the trailer sailor I would take over any other. Of course there is that price tag - can't imagine ever buying a new boat...

Chris

A buddy of mine is looking for a used TES. He used to own a Mac 26X but wasn't quite happy with it as a sail boat... He only kept it for one season. He also has a Dart 18 catamaran so he is used to more speed and tighter/quicker response.
I really see why he likes the Tes. It is a really nice boat! Who cares if it wasn't trailer able. But it IS! It sets up almost as fast as a Mac. or any other trailer able boat.
Chris I think that the TSSB guys that don't like the Tes are probably only looking at a few things, the weight of it. It's something like 7000lb...(?) The average trailer sailor is 3000lb... + or -.
And maybe the width of the trailer. 9.5'.... (Yu'll need a permit to tow such a wide and heavy load...)
Not if you have the correct tow vehicle and licences.

Jackdaw · Dec 6, 2013

finding41 said:
Chris I think that the TSSB guys that don't like the Tes are probably only looking at a few things, the weight of it. It's something like 7000lb...(?) The average trailer sailor is 3000lb... + or -.
And maybe the width of the trailer. 9.5'.... (Yu'll need a permit to tow such a wide and heavy load...)
Not if you have the correct tow vehicle and licences.

I think people 'like' a boat for a collection of reasons:

1) How it LOOKS
2) How it SAILS
3) How it was BUILT
4) How it MEETS THEIR NEEDS.

Trailerable sailboats (all about number 4) make the most compromises of the first 3; more than any other type of boat. So to me, lots of trailerable boats:

Look like crap - too much focus on interior room
Sail like crap - compromised keel-draft, and sail plan

The better ones are built OK, but that means either heavy or expensive.

Now those are just my opinions, it does not make me right. Everyone will have their own set of priorities. It's why the market is so fragmented.

David in Sandusky · Dec 6, 2013

Water ballast

Sorry, Bosman, water ballast works at all angles of heel.

Only issue with water ballast is you can't carry it below the hull for more leverage.

Meriachee · Dec 9, 2013

The Catalina requires a slightly larger 3/4 ton for the lawnchairs.

Ideal trailerable sailboat - theoretical approach

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