Great Loop on a Sailboat - Mast handling ideas?

[billder99]

I would be very hesitant to use a portable unvented propane heater on a boat, for a number of reasons. Chief among them is expense, safety, and condensation.

Thanks for your concern dlochner... you are right about condensation... but not about safety or expense.

Heat will be a critical issue on this trip. I should have known better than to post about Big Buddy/Little Buddy Heaters... it seems to rile people up, and that was not my intent. Please do yourself a favor and read up on them... they are amazing, reliable, economical on gas, and safe... the trick is to have adequate makeup air... condensation requires daily attention when it's cold out, not too big a price to pay for warmth. My real concern is the propane storage.... the bottle(s) will be in a bottom-vented cockpit locker with bulkheads, and NEVER the interior of the boat.

 

[billder99]

We have completed The Great Loop in a 260

Hi all. I just wanted to inform this site that the wife and I have completed America's Great Loop. We traveled 5300 miles, 120 Locks, put 998.4 hours on the outboard. This trip around the eastern half of the US took us 8 months - 22 days. We had a GREAT time, up the eastern coast ICW, up the...

forums.sailboatowners.com

You're my new hero Pat. I'll check, hope that link is a good blog or video of your travels.

 

[Tally Ho]

@billder99,
It sounds like a heck of an adventure…how many crew do you plan to have? I primarily ask because I thin you need crew to traverse the Welland Canal lock system. Is that how you get to the St. Lawrence seaway?

Greg

 

[rgranger]

my wife has said she would do the loop with me when we retire. She would rather not do it all at once though. So I bought this book and strategically left it on the coffee table.

The Great Loop Experience - From Concept to Completion A Practical Guide for Planning, Preparing and Executing Your Great Loop Adventure: Hospodar, George: 9781601389404: Books: Amazon.com

The Great Loop Experience - From Concept to Completion A Practical Guide for Planning, Preparing and Executing Your Great Loop Adventure [Hospodar, George] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Great Loop Experience - From Concept to Completion A Practical Guide for Planning...

www.amazon.com

It is a good read and talks about all the places you will need to lower your mast.

Also if you do an Amazon search on the great loop, you find a lot of people have written about it.

 

[dlochner]

@billder99,
It sounds like a heck of an adventure…how many crew do you plan to have? I primarily ask because I thin you need crew to traverse the Welland Canal lock system. Is that how you get to the St. Lawrence seaway?

Greg

The Welland requires 3 going upstream and 2 going downstream. Locking up hill is more challenging than down as the water in the lock is more turbulent. Locks fill and drain from the bottom up. When filling there is a great upwelling of water that makes boat control more difficult. Going down the water very calm, same as draining a bath tub.

There are three and a half routes to the St Lawrence from the Upper Great Lakes, the Welland Canal, the Trent Severn Waterway, and the Eire Canal via the Oswego Canal to Lake Ontario or the Lake Champlain route to the St Lawrence.

On the discussion about boat size, almost any size boat can do the trip with some planning. We owned a nice 30 foot boat that was perfectly capable of making the trip we're on now (Lake Ontario to some where south, Keys or hopefully the Bahamas and a later trip out the St Lawrence), however there were a few creature comforts we wanted, like a larger head with shower, refrigeration, a stove, a little more space in an aesthetically pleasing package as we would be living on it for a year or more. For us a Sabre 362 was the right answer.

An advantage to a larger boat is a longer waterline. We can average about 5.5 to 6 knots motoring, a smaller boat will be slower. On the ICW tidal currents play havoc with your SOG, sometimes boosting speed by 2-3 knots, sometimes slowing down your speed by 2-3 knots. It seems more often than not the tide is against you.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Holy Moly, thanks for the reminder. I've seen this done on boats up to 25'... I'm sure it would work on a 27' boat mast... 30'??? that might be pushing my own wishfulness... but who knows? I'd sure like to try it!

I know of a boater that uses an A frame to step his 200lbs Catalina 27 Tall Rig mast. He said a few others have used it for larger boats but it's a bit big to store on board. As a reference, the mast for my O'Day 25 is only 60 lbs

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Of all the things that will require detailed planning and of all the equipment needs that require storage space, I just can't understand the focus on DIY mast raising and lowering. Why put any focus on this issue when it is not necessary at all to have that capability. Being self-sufficient is admirable when necessary, but why is this necessary? There are convenient services on the route and it only needs to be done at 2 or 3 locations at most. Why is this a question when there are obvious services?

Keep in mind that Baum's Rush basically did the shortest route feasible in a sprint to complete the loop in about 265 days. They averaged about 20 miles per day, which indicates to me that they basically traveled every other day. Your trip, circling the St. Lawrence Seaway, will probably add a year to the trip. That's an ambitious side-trip for sure! And a trip that will be fascinating for sure! I'd bet that you will be locked down by winter at least twice -maybe 3 winters. What are your plans for the winter? What months do you really want to be underway in northern climates. You can traverse areas of the Great Lakes before July, but I doubt it would be very pleasing to make a trip any earlier. Even as far south as Chicago, Lake Michigan is brutally cold even as late as early June, where sailors wear winter coats while on the water. If you are thinking about including Lake Superior (it's not necessary - but it would be worthwhile) your window starts in July and ends about mid-September for comfortable, safe weather.

Where do you want to winter the boat?

I'd love to plan this trip! It would be the experience for a lifetime! Couple of questions I have: What are the limitations on the Trent-Severn canal? Is length and draft a limiting factor for a mid-sized boat? I would use it as a very attractive shortcut to avoid most of Lake Ontario, all of Lake Erie and the southern half of Lake Huron. I'm planting a bug in Sue's ear for just such a trip!

 

[Bob J.]

Of all the things that will require detailed planning and of all the equipment needs that require storage space, I just can't understand the focus on DIY mast raising and lowering. Why put any focus on this issue when it is not necessary at all to have that capability. Being self-sufficient is admirable when necessary, but why is this necessary? There are convenient services on the route and it only needs to be done at 2 or 3 locations at most. Why is this a question when there are obvious services?

I've asked this question several times on a couple of GL forums. My understanding there arent any mast services south of Chicago. Many sailboater either carry their masts on deck or ship them to Turner Marine in Mobile Al. This past fall many that shipped had serious damage to their sticks, some requiring complete spar replacements.
I believe the last 19'-6" fixed bridge on the Illinois River is north of Lockport. Many that can restep their masts themselves do so there at the free dock wall. The air draft on many of the larger sailboats exceed
(it's 49' or 52') so they can't clear the fixed bridge on the TennTom waterway. Although many use their sailboats in "trawler" mode my understanding is the motion is very unkind without the stick up.

The air draft on my boat is 42' so I would want to put the stick up.

 

[dlochner]

Although many use their sailboats in "trawler" mode my understanding is the motion is very unkind without the stick up.

Having covered several hundred miles with the stick down on a couple of boats, on protected waters it is not that much of an issue. However on unprotected waters or in any kind of sea state it can get rolly. The motion is comparable to motoring with the stick up and no sails, just a little worse. On the Erie canal there is only one section that deserves caution with the mast down and that is Oneida Lake. The Lake is about 20 miles long and can get choppy in a West wind.

 

[dLj]

The air draft on my boat is 42' so I would want to put the stick up.

I've sailed several boats that could put up and down their masts on their own. This is not a big deal. It does take a LOT of planning and some good engineering, depending upon how big the mast is, but from what you've said at this point it should not be a difficult thing to get set-up. Putting the mast up and down is a whole system.

Carrying the mast while down is also a system you have to work the details out on. How you control the shrouds, side stays, fore and aft stays so that they remain organized and become part of the overall system. I've always found it better to carry the mast on one side, not down the middle. The side opposite the prop walk. That way, the prop walk side becomes your docking side whenever the mast is down. As you'll be going through locks and such with the mast down, the mast should stick out aft rather than being a lance off the bow... You should be able to move the mast back and forth. This means having rollers as part of the frame holding the mast are a very nice to have. The aft frame tends to end up being much more substantial as that is where all the alignments are easiest to employ (well, from what I've seen).

There really isn't much more I can tell you, the devil is in the details: where do all your side stays attach, how the mast balances, when you move the mast to the side for carrying, it's really nice to get the spreaders to be running more of less vertical rather than horizontal. The attachment used between the forestay and the windlass. Do yo need a gin pole... Lot's of details...

dj

 

[dlochner]

There are many ways to carry a mast on deck. Key parts are putting the butt of the mast forward, (fewer expensive parts to damage), covering both ends with buckets or some protection, and lots of cargo straps. This is Second Star with the mast on deck and only secured well enough to get from the travel lift back to the dock. In the end there were many more cargo straps.

I carried the mast on the center line. Along the Erie there are places and locks where you don't really have choice about which side to dock on. I also set it up so the boarding ladder on the stern could be used if someone fell in. More photos are available.

 

[dLj]

There are many ways to carry a mast on deck. Key parts are putting the butt of the mast forward, (fewer expensive parts to damage), covering both ends with buckets or some protection, and lots of cargo straps. This is Second Star with the mast on deck and only secured well enough to get from the travel lift back to the dock. In the end there were many more cargo straps.

I carried the mast on the center line. Along the Erie there are places and locks where you don't really have choice about which side to dock on. I also set it up so the boarding ladder on the stern could be used if someone fell in. More photos are available.

View attachment 201886

@dlochner You were putting your mast up and down with a crane, correct? Also, you took your spreaders off looks like.

How would you position your mast like shown if you were dropping the mast yourself without a crane?

dj

 

[dlochner]

@dlochner You were putting your mast up and down with a crane, correct? Also, you took your spreaders off looks like.

How would you position your mast like shown if you were dropping the mast yourself without a crane?

dj

Yes it a crane took it down for last winter's storage and the spreaders come off because the storage fee is cheaper. A travel lift picked it up and put on the boat.

I really haven't thought about how I would store if I were doing the work myself, because the mast at 54' and probably about 400 to 500 lbs fully rigged is bigger than I want to manage.

When we take it down next summer to go back through the Erie Canal we'll leave the spreaders on and set the mast on its side (more or less) to get the spreaders vertical. Lots of bungee cords will keep the shrouds and stays organized.

We did set the boom on the starboard side as most of the locks will be taken on the port side.

Even if I had a smaller boat, I would still opt for a crane to put the mast up and down. When the time and expense of developing a safe and effective self-stepping method is considered the actual cost of a crane is not all that much more. A crane probably saves time, as it will not be necessary to rig, unrig, and store the mast stepping device. Not to mention the difficulty in finding a marina that would allow you to step the mast on your own. Or finding help on the dock. For me, its just not worth the extra effort and hassle. And if the stepping is unsuccessful, what will the insurance company say?

 

[dLj]

Yes it a crane took it down for last winter's storage and the spreaders come off because the storage fee is cheaper. A travel lift picked it up and put on the boat.

I really haven't thought about how I would store if I were doing the work myself, because the mast at 54' and probably about 400 to 500 lbs fully rigged is bigger than I want to manage.

When we take it down next summer to go back through the Erie Canal we'll leave the spreaders on and set the mast on its side (more or less) to get the spreaders vertical. Lots of bungee cords will keep the shrouds and stays organized.

We did set the boom on the starboard side as most of the locks will be taken on the port side.

Even if I had a smaller boat, I would still opt for a crane to put the mast up and down. When the time and expense of developing a safe and effective self-stepping method is considered the actual cost of a crane is not all that much more. A crane probably saves time, as it will not be necessary to rig, unrig, and store the mast stepping device. Not to mention the difficulty in finding a marina that would allow you to step the mast on your own. Or finding help on the dock. For me, its just not worth the extra effort and hassle. And if the stepping is unsuccessful, what will the insurance company say?

I don't disagree that the $'s to set up a reliable self-stepping option would not be beneficial in your case. The OP however, may have a need that we don't. I've been on several boats with that option, the largest was a good sized ketch, but that system was crazy - both masts were hinged about 3 feet above the deck and the hinge was a worm gear driven sector. Essentially you just un-hooked the forestay and the mast came down with the gear driven sector. The boat had a deck mounted crane and once each mast was down, there was a pin you popped out, each mast was picked up and placed in it's respective cradle for driving without masts up. That boat was used a lot in the Belgium canals so masts up and down were very frequent. The OP certainly doesn't need anything like that!

dj

 

[billder99]

@billder99,
It sounds like a heck of an adventure…how many crew do you plan to have? I primarily ask because I thin you need crew to traverse the Welland Canal lock system. Is that how you get to the St. Lawrence seaway?

Thanks for the heads-up Greg, that's new info to me... for the entire St Lawrence leg I was planning on solo... I'll do more research on this... add Scotts comments above and maybe the idea of adding St Lawrence to Great Loop is not as good an idea as I have been thinking. Research continues!

 

[billder99]

my wife has said she would do the loop with me when we retire. She would rather not do it all at once though. So I bought this book and strategically left it on the coffee table. It is a good read and talks about all the places you will need to lower your mast.

Excellent tip, thanks for that idea... I'll go scan thru available boats but that sounds like a good one... I'm going to look for a book written by someone who has done the Loop on a sailboat. EDIT: Looked at a bunch of books, all trawler trips except one... I'm ordering this for me, and also a friend who is considering joining with his own boat: America's Great Loop & Beyond: Cruising on a Frugal Budget (Bring your own Boat): Wright, Capt John C: 9781492350941: Amazon.com: Books

 

[dLj]

Excellent tip, thanks for that idea... I'll go scan thru available boats but that sounds like a good one... I'm going to look for writing my someone who has done the Loop on a sailboat.

There's actually a number of folks doing the great loop that take sailboats and convert them to trawlers...

Have you checked out the facebook group?

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dj

 

[Tally Ho]

Thanks for the heads-up Greg, that's new info to me... for the entire St Lawrence leg I was planning on solo... I'll do more research on this... add Scotts comments above and maybe the idea of adding St Lawrence to Great Loop is not as good an idea as I have been thinking. Research continues!

Keep us posted…

 

[dLj]

Keep us posted…

+1

dj

 

[billder99]

The Welland requires 3 going upstream and 2 going downstream. Locking up hill is more challenging than down as the water in the lock is more turbulent. Locks fill and drain from the bottom up. When filling there is a great upwelling of water that makes boat control more difficult. Going down the water very calm, same as draining a bath tub. There are three and a half routes to the St Lawrence from the Upper Great Lakes, the Welland Canal, the Trent Severn Waterway, and the Eire Canal via the Oswego Canal to Lake Ontario or the Lake Champlain route to the St Lawrence.

Dave, Man, thanks again. I feel like you are watching out for me... I've started a log collecting Tips from Forum Members. I have been reading about the St Lawrence... I've driven much of it and even boated about 100 miles in a 16' Starcraft skiboat (battling crazy big ships wakes!!!)... but I was not getting some of the practicalities of boating the full passage... and I was clueless about the need for crew in locks. Again... thanks... you're really making me re-think some things.

Regarding boat speed, I agree 100%, very important. You're not going to like this (uh oh) but one of the boats I am considering (among many) is the MacGregor 26X. I know, I know... lot's of haters on Mac boats. I've sailed one a bit down here on the Sea of Cortez (I live in Baja). They are sufficiently seaworthy for a prudent and experienced sailor with a careful eye on weather, super easy to lower/raise/transport the mast, ability to easily trailer is a plus, small but adequate for us, very easy to re-sell.... and the 40hp outboard is mighty enticing. Heading south from Chicago, if taking the up-current cut-over rivers, the current can easily exceed 6mph... that would really put in kink in plans with 5-6mph max hull speed.