Great Loop on a Sailboat - Mast handling ideas?

[billder99]

There are many ways to carry a mast on deck. Key parts are putting the butt of the mast forward, (fewer expensive parts to damage), covering both ends with buckets or some protection, and lots of cargo straps. This is Second Star with the mast on deck and only secured well enough to get from the travel lift back to the dock. In the end there were many more cargo straps.

dlochner, Dave, Misfits, DLJ... all of your thoughts/comments are so helpful guys, thank you. I am planning 3-4 months full time boat-prep for the trip (after purchase), and designing/fabricating a system for carrying the mast/standing rig will be one of my projects... and all of this because I CAN'T BEAR THE IDEA of having a sailboat I can't sail. The lengths we go to, right? With all of your input, I will be well prepared. All in all, I feel I'm headed in the right direction on boat size... 27' is small, but not tiny (West Wight Potter 15, anyone?)... and it is the right size to have maximum flexibility in regard to lowering/raising/transporting the mast... I may use a crane service, but I want to be prepared to do it myself. Hope for the best, Plan for the worst. This is a GREAT thread.

 

[dLj]

Dave, Man, thanks again. I feel like you are watching out for me... I've started a log collecting Tips from Forum Members. I have been reading about the St Lawrence... I've driven much of it and even boated about 100 miles in a 16' Starcraft skiboat (battling crazy big ships wakes!!!)... but I was not getting some of the practicalities of boating the full passage... and I was clueless about the need for crew in locks. Again... thanks... you're really making me re-think some things.

Regarding boat speed, I agree 100%, very important. You're not going to like this (uh oh) but one of the boats I am considering (among many) is the MacGregor 26X. I know, I know... lot's of haters on Mac boats. I've sailed one a bit down here on the Sea of Cortez (I live in Baja). They are sufficiently seaworthy for a prudent an experienced sailor with a careful eye on weather, super easy to lower & raise mast, ability to easily trailer is a plus, small but adequate for us, very easy to re-sell.... and the 40hp outboard is mighty enticing. Heading south from Chicago, if taking the up-current cut-over rivers, the current can easily exceed 6mph... that would really put in kink in plans with 5-6mph max hull speed.

If the size works for you - that's a great boat exactly for this trip! In my opinion anyway. I used to own an original Mac 26 water ballast with the pop top. It was a great boat! I loved it.

dj

 

[billder99]

• We did set the boom (mast) on the starboard side as most of the locks will be taken on the port side.
• And if the stepping is unsuccessful, what will the insurance company say?

Both great points. Insurance? This will be an inexpensive boat (older, used, 27'... <$10k)... self insured.

 

[dLj]

Both great points. Insurance? This will be an inexpensive boat (older, used, 27'... <$10k)... self insured.

You may need liability for getting through some places. It's not just about your boat.

dj

 

[dlochner]

Both great points. Insurance? This will be an inexpensive boat (older, used, 27'... <$10k)... self insured.

Many marinas require liability insurance and certainly if you want to avoid litigation you should have liability insurance and oil spill insurance.

All in all, I feel I'm headed in the right direction on boat size... 27' is small, but not tiny (West Wight Potter 15, anyone?)

There was a recent thread here on SBO about a small boat for a similar adventure as yours. Can't remember the thread title. Maybe someone younger with better memory can recall it.

If a boat is designed to be trailerable, stepping the mast will be easier and safer than on a similar sized boat that is not designed to be trailerable.

There are many things to consider. One of them is the holding tank or lack thereof. Disposing of human waste can be an issue.

 

[billder99]

You may need liability for getting through some places. It's not just about your boat.

My understanding is that you can't get insurance on sailboats over a certain age... is that correct? Regardless, I'll take the risk... Marinas? Anchoring out is fine and dandy most nights.

 

[dLj]

My understanding is that you can't get insurance on sailboats over a certain age... is that correct? Regardless, I'll take the risk... Marinas? Anchoring out is fine and dandy most nights.

That's not correct. You can get insurance on older boats. My boat is nearly 40 years old and I carry full insurance on it. You might have to look for it,

I've been surprised where I've been recently asked to show proof of insurance. Liability insurance won't be too bad especially on the size boat you're looking for. I'd be rather reluctant to run locks with all the inherent risks to other boats and property and not have liability insurance at least. If you were heading to South America, might be another story, but here in the US with the litigious nature of our society, that's not what I'd do. But it's your life.

dj

 

[rgranger]

My understanding is that you can't get insurance on sailboats over a certain age... is that correct? Regardless, I'll take the risk... Marinas? Anchoring out is fine and dandy most nights.

You can get liability. That is what I have. They may not want to insure YOUR boat. But…
I use State Farm and bundle with all my other stuff

 

[Joe]

You'll need liability ins to stay in most marinas... plus a heft environmental provision. Your boat's value is irrelevant.

 

[dlochner]

Liability insurance is essential. A friend's boat was hit by an uninsured boater. There was some damage to his boat that was not minimal. Because the boat was uninsured, because the boater never hits anything (his words), my friend is left trying to collect damages from this person. Last I heard he hadn't received any money yet. I hope you are not "that guy" who just walks away knowing it will hard to collect.

 

[rgranger]

Liability insurance is essential. A friend's boat was hit by an uninsured boater. There was some damage to his boat that was not minimal. Because the boat was uninsured, because the boater never hits anything (his words), my friend is left trying to collect damages from this person. Last I heard he hadn't received any money yet. I hope you are not "that guy" who just walks away knowing it will hard to collect.

It is not expensive. I think I am paying something like $38/mo. And that includes towing. Boat US is another place to look to for liability.

There are two types of sailors.... those who have run aground and those who lie about it. I'd add towing on top of liability.

 

[Bob J.]

I've sailed several boats that could put up and down their masts on their own. This is not a big deal. It does take a LOT of planning and some good engineering, depending upon how big the mast is, but from what you've said at this point it should not be a difficult thing to get set-up. Putting the mast up and down is a whole system.

Carrying the mast while down is also a system you have to work the details out on. How you control the shrouds, side stays, fore and aft stays so that they remain organized and become part of the overall system. I've always found it better to carry the mast on one side, not down the middle. The side opposite the prop walk. That way, the prop walk side becomes your docking side whenever the mast is down. As you'll be going through locks and such with the mast down, the mast should stick out aft rather than being a lance off the bow... You should be able to move the mast back and forth. This means having rollers as part of the frame holding the mast are a very nice to have. The aft frame tends to end up being much more substantial as that is where all the alignments are easiest to employ (well, from what I've seen).

There really isn't much more I can tell you, the devil is in the details: where do all your side stays attach, how the mast balances, when you move the mast to the side for carrying, it's really nice to get the spreaders to be running more of less vertical rather than horizontal. The attachment used between the forestay and the windlass. Do yo need a gin pole... Lot's of details...

dj

I'm pretty sure I could fly my mast with a gin pole if I absolutely had to, it's 36' long.
I'm 66, not 46 so it would be a last resort, kinda of end of the world stuff

 

[billder99]

You can get insurance on older boats...... I'd be rather reluctant to run locks with all the inherent risks to other boats and property and not have liability insurance at least. . but here in the US with the litigious nature of our society, that's not what I'd do.

Thanks for you thoughts dLj, all good points.

 

[billder99]

I think I am paying something like $38/mo. And that includes towing. Boat US is another place to look to for liability.

Thanks rgranger, I didn't realize insurance is so easy to find and so affordable. You're right... at this price it would be irresposible to go without.

 

[Caboteur]

A very complicated statement and so many good remarks! I’ll add my two cents worth anyway.
Boat choice: what are your needs and desires; how do they fit the budget? This is for a long ride, probably more than a year aboard; you can’t go without… headroom, heat, good ventilation, sun protection, a head with holding tank, cooking apparatus. Nice to have: refrigeration, internal propulsion, dinghy with outboard motor. Please there is no make or model choice here.. if you measure 1,80m or more it should be at least a 9 meter boat. Performance for this trip isn’t measured in standard sailing terms it’s measured in comfort and security…
Down & up the St-Lawrence: how far down? Past Trois-Rivières you start getting important tide currents (up to 8 knots in some stretches). Past Québec City it is well advised to have radar. After Tadoussac they don’t sell ice for the ice-box… you just put the food against the hull: the water temp rarely get’s above 4ºC. From Montréal to the Magdalen Islands and back is a three month trip. One of the most beautiful I’ve ever made but serious seamanship and not very comfortable. You would be better advised to hug the New England coast from NY and cross from Bar Harbor ME to Nova Scotia go through Canso & up the Gulf to the Maggies and then up the St-Lawrence… the mast should stay up all the time.
Since you are new to this I would skip the detour, from NY up the Hudson take the mast down at Castleton (I’ve always had help). From there go up the Champlain canal, cross lake Champlain, go down the Richelieu to Sorel (another 50$ crane fee) turn left to Montréal. You must be two on board to use the St-Lawrence Seaway locks… they’re impressive.
From there to Chicago it’s a piece of cake!

 

[billder99]

Since you are new to this I would skip the detour, from NY up the Hudson take the mast down at Castleton (I’ve always had help). From there go up the Champlain canal, cross lake Champlain, go down the Richelieu to Sorel (another 50$ crane fee) turn left to Montréal. You must be two on board to use the St-Lawrence Seaway locks… they’re impressive. From there to Chicago it’s a piece of cake!

Caboteur, thanks so much for the detailed comments on the St Lawrence. I hadn't considered arctic water temps!!!... and didn't realize the speed of currents. As I commented above, I drove 100 miles on the St Lawrence in a 16' ski boat... insanely big wakes from fast moving ships. With your comments I've been studying maps and reading for 2 days, and now I realize it would be bad judgement to take a small coastal cruiser out into the Gulf and then around Nova Scotia (I spent a week on north Breton Isle once, and the winds are scary and constant). Route Change #1: I'll cut the St Lawrence portion off at Montreal (whichever direction I choose).

Thanks for your prudent advice.

 

[Caboteur]

Since you won’t be « coming in from the cold » bear in mind that the New York State canal system opens for the navigation season on or around May 20 every year.
Many boats will be lowering masts at Castleton and congregating at the Waterford town dock: this is the snowbird north migrating season!
That will bring you to either Oswego or Sorel & Montreal in early June… very good timing for Great Lakes trip.
When you build your mast (for mast-down) crutches remember you will need to carry them all the time your mast is up! Make them small or dismountable so they can be stored somewhere onboard.
I’m moored at 45º09’N, 074º20’W: if you wish you may PM me when you are in the planning stages for the Canadian portion of your trip.

 

[billder99]

I’m moored at 45º09’N, 074º20’W: if you wish you may PM me when you are in the planning stages for the Canadian portion of your trip.

I'll do it! I'd like to buy you lunch and beers!
BD

 

[DArcy]

Many marinas require liability insurance and certainly if you want to avoid litigation you should have liability insurance and oil spill insurance.

There was a recent thread here on SBO about a small boat for a similar adventure as yours. Can't remember the thread title. Maybe someone younger with better memory can recall it.
If a boat is designed to be trailerable, stepping the mast will be easier and safer than on a similar sized boat that is not designed to be trailerable.
There are many things to consider. One of them is the holding tank or lack thereof. Disposing of human waste can be an issue.

Dave, this is probably the thread you are thinking of Sailing the US Loop, should I use my Potter or buy a Nimble Kodiak
If you want to go slow, a Nimble Kodiak or Arctic would be good and I think @frimi_captain in that link made a great choice. If you want to go fast then the Mac 26X would be good. There are a whole lot of boats in between that could fit the bill.
I would want something bigger than either of these boats for the Gulf of St. Lawrence, however, since there are a lot of open water miles between safe harbours. I've only travelled that area working on a 200 ft cruise ship and it is beautiful, but can be unforgiving. I would love to get to St. Pierre and Miquelon and on to Newfoundland at some point on my own boat, but I wouldn't want to take on that trip with a boat much smaller. An old poster here, Jon Eisenberg, sailed that area in his Chance 30-30 but he was probably one of the most capable sailors of his time.

 

[Bob J.]

A very complicated statement and so many good remarks! I’ll add my two cents worth anyway.
Boat choice: what are your needs and desires; how do they fit the budget? This is for a long ride, probably more than a year aboard; you can’t go without… headroom, heat, good ventilation, sun protection, a head with holding tank, cooking apparatus. Nice to have: refrigeration, internal propulsion, dinghy with outboard motor. Please there is no make or model choice here.. if you measure 1,80m or more it should be at least a 9 meter boat. Performance for this trip isn’t measured in standard sailing terms it’s measured in comfort and security…
Down & up the St-Lawrence: how far down? Past Trois-Rivières you start getting important tide currents (up to 8 knots in some stretches). Past Québec City it is well advised to have radar. After Tadoussac they don’t sell ice for the ice-box… you just put the food against the hull: the water temp rarely get’s above 4ºC. From Montréal to the Magdalen Islands and back is a three month trip. One of the most beautiful I’ve ever made but serious seamanship and not very comfortable. You would be better advised to hug the New England coast from NY and cross from Bar Harbor ME to Nova Scotia go through Canso & up the Gulf to the Maggies and then up the St-Lawrence… the mast should stay up all the time.
Since you are new to this I would skip the detour, from NY up the Hudson take the mast down at Castleton (I’ve always had help). From there go up the Champlain canal, cross lake Champlain, go down the Richelieu to Sorel (another 50$ crane fee) turn left to Montréal. You must be two on board to use the St-Lawrence Seaway locks… they’re impressive.
From there to Chicago it’s a piece of cake!

That's some really great advice.
As one that has dreamed about doing the loop never considered heading to Nova Scotia to connect with the Great Lakes.
Based upon where I keep my boat, mileage wise sailing to Yarmouth NS is equal to going south to Portsmouth NH.
Taking this northern route sounds much more pleasant than heading south to NYC to hit the Hudson.
Thanks!