Does it still make sense to restore old boats?

[jibes138]

Look at it this way. You can buy a brand new Caliber 35 for about 275,000 base and need to add some bucks for options so let's assume 300,000 for a 35 foot new boat.

You could take an old Ericson/O'Day/Catalina/Pearson/etc./etc. give 100,000 to MaineSail and maybe in 6 months have a boat in essentially new condition instead. So in this case which is the better option? The boat in new condition may not be worth the 100K in the market but if you want a boat in new condition for a lot less than buying a new boat and plan to use it yourself it looks like a great alternative. Then you could take the 200,000 you saved on the boat and buy a condo at the beach to go with it.

 

[Bob J.]

Great Thread!!

Boats do not appreciate in value, only depreciate but you do hit a line where values hold steady due to the costs of buying new.

In my case I bought a 28 Sabre that has a good hull & decent deck for 5K. I've tore it apart & have replaced the bulkheads, floor stringers & compresion post support. To date I've spent 1200 bucks on materials. Even if I repower before hitting the water along with the other upgrades I'm doing, I'll have 18k into it. That's pretty short money for a boat that has been gone thru from one end to the other.

So for me, it is worth it.

 

[Jackdaw]

Look at it this way. You can buy a brand new Caliber 35 for about 275,000 base and need to add some bucks for options so let's assume 300,000 for a 35 foot new boat.

You could take an old Ericson/O'Day/Catalina/Pearson/etc./etc. give 100,000 to MaineSail and maybe in 6 months have a boat in essentially new condition instead. So in this case which is the better option? The boat in new condition may not be worth the 100K in the market but if you want a boat in new condition for a lot less than buying a new boat and plan to use it yourself it looks like a great alternative. Then you could take the 200,000 you saved on the boat and buy a condo at the beach to go with it.

I hear you Jibes but that's a different point you making. And I'm not sure I totally agree with you... ;^)

I've owned new boats and old boats, and there is a world of difference in the usability and volumetric efficiency of newer boats. My old C&C 34 was nice, but cannot hold a candle to our 35 foot long 367. The 367 we can sail/race double handed, she much faster, and it seem you could put the 34 inside her, there is so much more room. Its head and shoulders a better boat.

The problem is it not the same as it is with cars. No would compare a 1985 Oldsmobile to a 2012 Cadillac in a buying decision. But people do that with sailboat, because its closer. But its not the same. And thankfully. Remember someone has to buy these things new, or no one gets to play.

 

[jrowan]

I'm probably one of the few sailors that has actually made money on every boat that I've bought & sold. I don't think it's luck, its just common sense. The bottom line is you have to buy low & sell high. You also have to buy a boat that has a good look to it in the first place. Don't buy ugly boats. Grampians come to mind - lol. Don't buy them when they're too far gone. Avoid teak decks or woodies. I always look for boats that are desirable & always in demand, such as almost everything Catalina ever built. I have three basic requirements: it has to have a working engine, useable sails & an intact hull & deck. Cosmetics can always be fixed as time & money allow. But if she doesn't function as a sailboat then that's a deal breaker. Engine rebuilds & new sails are too expensive to ever make money when flipping a boat. Boats that were previously raced tend to have rigging upgrades & tons of sail inventory, that is expensive.

Now the specifics. My first restore boat was the common Catalina 25, c. 1985. Bought her for $1,200 bucks from as a donation to a boat museum. She had a good working outboard, sails, roller furling & trailer. Spent about a grand to fix a crack in the swing keel trunk, recovered the cabin cushions, & sold her a year later for $7,500. Profit: $5k.

Took that money & bought an S-2 28 foot racer / cruiser. She had a coral reef growing on her hull, which looked bad, but she was otherwise in great shape. Spent a grand on a haul out & bottom job. Bought her for rock bottom 5k, sold her a year later for $15,000. Profit: $8k.
I've been considering buying her back from the marina where the idiot buyer proceeded to wreck the boat every time he tried to sail her. If I do buy her back, it'll only be for $2,500.

I took the profit from the S 2 sale & bought a Catalina 30, 1980 (I do tend to avoid 1970's vintage because it just sounds older). I love 1980's vintage boats because they tend to be somewhat overbuilt, & they're a heck of a lot cheaper then 90's era. I bought the C 30 for $9k with a rebuilt diesel, newer UK Halsey sails, & new electrical panel. She just needed some love, & new cabin cushions. She is now worth a good 20k, which I will eventually put into the next, bigger boat. Unfortunately, boats over 30 feet get exponentially more expensive. But I hope to move up next to a Catalina 34 or an O'Day 34 that we used to have as a family boat.

As in most things , when U sell it has to LOOK GOOD. If you want to get good money the engine has to look good, no oil leaks, repaint it. Recover the cushions if they look worn. (ps. Wallmart sells bolts of Sunbrella knock off fabric for only a hundred bucks a bolt)
Get rid of smells & leak stains. Send worn sails out to a sail loft & restitch & clean 'em.
Wax the hull topsides. Have a diver clean the hull & running gear of she's been in the water for a while. If she looks good to you, she will to someone else as well.
The last advice is to price them right for the size of the boat. Research the competition. You cannot make money on really expensive newer boats from the 1990's yet, because the initial purchase price is too high. But I'll be waiting for them, when the prices come down to earth.

So long story short, hell yes you can make money buying & restoring Good Ol' Boats.

 

[bffatcat]

does it make sense to restore old boats MY 2c

First : my situation is different from some of the other posts I have a 75 pearson 26w completely restored 2012. The main differences are 1. I didnt buy this boat to restore it I bought it in 2000 and sailed it for 12 years. 2. before deciding on the restoration I looked at
4 to 5 year old boats in the same size range and 3. I found few choices. What I did find were
lightly built boats that were not to my liking. 4. I did not do the restoration myself.,Im 75 and had back surgery lin Jan. i was not capable of doing the work myself I hired a
boat restoration company to do It. The restoration cost me four times what I paid for the boat. If I had taken what I paid for the restoration and added what I could get for the boat as it sat my cash outlay would have been approximately the same. With one big difference.
I have a solidly built completely restored good sailing boat no longer available today. I am very
happy with the results

 

[TFrere]

I know that I'll never get my money back from my boat but if I had to do it again, I would. I'm pretty proud of my old boat.

 

[rgranger]

I'm pretty proud of my old boat.

Dang! Nice!

 

[jimgreen8c]

It makes sense, financial and otherwise. We have an auction about three times a year run by our city marina. I bought a 28 foot Meridian for $1.00, built a table and put in an old alcohol stove. I paid for a haulout and bottom job, sailed it for a year, and sold it for $2800.00. My next two were Columbia 22's one needed a $600.00 rudder the other a used main for $300.00. both I used for a year and each I sold for $2200.00. I bought a Laguna 26 (I think?) for $100.00; Sold the electric outboard for $200.00, Spent $300.00 on a motor, replaced a rotten bulkhead for around $100.00 and sold it for $2600.00.
My last auction boat was a Chris Craft 33 Coho for $10.00. It is missing an engine, but I cripple her around pretty well one the one remaining. It came with pressure water, a nice stereo, and 80 gallons of gas. We've taken her to Catalina every year, and had loads of fun tooling around the harbors on summer nights, for the fourth of July fireworks shows off the Queen Mary and taking in Christmas lights. I'm famous at my yacht club as the guy with the ten dollar boat. The best ten dollars I ever spent! I recently found a used transmission and Vdrive for it so repowering the missing side will cost maybe $1500.00. My keys are:1. buying used gear for used boats, 2. using them before they are perfect to motivate me to make them better, and 3. always balancing the money I put in with the money I can get out.

 

[Dixie Chicken]

as in life... it all depends on many things

For me, as I get older, my time is more valuable, but... I cannot honestly say that sailing is more satisfying to me than just working on the boat. I used to sail prob 3 times a week, moved ashore for 15 yrs, and just getting back sailing again. Working on my "clunker" and the sense of pride in seeing what I have done to her, and the zen factor involved... becoming part of the boat, and vice versa, has done so much for my psyche. Yes, I got a good deal on a boat three months ago, and I have sunk more into it than I had intended... but I am getting to know my new baby from the inside out. For me, I would rather have this old boat (39 years old now) than a brand new one.

 

[CapeDave]

I took a look at the first picture and said that hull shapes looks really familiar and then I saw that is what I thought a Cal 29. I'm in the process of refitting a 1970 Cal 29 myself. It's not as major a refit as I have done in the past. Upgrading, and polishing off to bring up it update and give me the comfort in a boat that I like. And that I can afford to do with a lower priced boat. This is the 3rd boat I've refitted, and yes it's been work but for me it has been worth it. I get the configuration that I want and I've never had to fiance a boat.

I've broken even on every boat I refit and and sold to get the next one. The only boat I ever lost money on was newer model one that I bought 'ready to sail'. Besides the admiral doesn't mind if I tinker and work on an old boat - she nearly took a boat hook to me when I broke out the hole saw to add an instrument to the bulkhead of the ready to sail one. I'll be just as happy sailing my $5000 free and clear investment next summer as the guy in the nice newer one with a monthly fiance payment.

Dave
Wind Drifter
1970 Cal 29
Buzzards Bay

 

[jibes138]

I hear you Jibes but that's a different point you making. And I'm not sure I totally agree with you... ;^)

I've owned new boats and old boats, and there is a world of difference in the usability and volumetric efficiency of newer boats. My old C&C 34 was nice, but cannot hold a candle to our 35 foot long 367. The 367 we can sail/race double handed, she much faster, and it seem you could put the 34 inside her, there is so much more room. Its head and shoulders a better boat.

The problem is it not the same as it is with cars. No would compare a 1985 Oldsmobile to a 2012 Cadillac in a buying decision. But people do that with sailboat, because its closer. But its not the same. And thankfully. Remember someone has to buy these things new, or no one gets to play.

I hear you but I am not sure I agree with you. A huge volume hull does not necessarily make a "better" boat. Granted the boats I mention are not in the same league as the Caliber for quality of original construction, but they are pretty good boats, similar in terms of accomodations and sailing ability. You can't compare boats that are dissimilar in terms of speed anyway without handicapping them. But if you want speed to get to a new port and not race you may have a point.
You would call (I hope) a Pacific Seacraft 34 a really good new boat I would assume, but it will not have anywhere near the hull volume or living accomodations of your Bene. It will however take you across oceans in conditions you probably wouldn't want to see in the Bene. You could get one for say 85K, put 65K into her and for 150K have a boat equivalent to the Caliber 35. For that matter take an old Caliber 35 put in some money and for half the price of new have new condition.

 

[jibes138]

That Cal 29 and Morgan 382 both look great. I used to dock near a guy with a Cal 34 who took it to Bermuda just about every Marion to Bermuda race. Rugged boat and very capable skipper.
I almost bought a Morgan 382, but couldn't reach agreement on price, back some 20 years ago when prices were still astronomical, very nice boat. Enjoy.

 

[jepomer]

Just remember that a boat is something you want to enjoy. You might want to only sail it. You might take immense joy in basic maintenance. Others may strip a boat down to its core then rebuilt it. Some will want a large boat. Others will prefer a small one.

But most of us will not recover all of the time and money we put into the boat. With that in mind only you can decide if it is worth it.

Personally, I like purchasing low priced boats that need a little "TLC". Almost every one was "sailable" when I took it home. As much as I enjoy sailing, I also enjoy the maintenance — mechanical and structural. The time and money spent is for my satisfaction and quest to learn new skills while using old ones.

So unless you are a professional boat restorer with the skills, tools, and space to do the repairs, you probably will not make a profit on the boat. But if you intend to use the boat for several years and enjoy making the renovations, then it is all worth it!

 

[tommays]

I took a look at the first picture and said that hull shapes looks really familiar and then I saw that is what I thought a Cal 29. I'm in the process of refitting a 1970 Cal 29 myself. It's not as major a refit as I have done in the past. Upgrading, and polishing off to bring up it update and give me the comfort in a boat that I like. And that I can afford to do with a lower priced boat. This is the 3rd boat I've refitted, and yes it's been work but for me it has been worth it. I get the configuration that I want and I've never had to fiance a boat.

I've broken even on every boat I refit and and sold to get the next one. The only boat I ever lost money on was newer model one that I bought 'ready to sail'. Besides the admiral doesn't mind if I tinker and work on an old boat - she nearly took a boat hook to me when I broke out the hole saw to add an instrument to the bulkhead of the ready to sail one. I'll be just as happy sailing my $5000 free and clear investment next summer as the guy in the nice newer one with a monthly fiance payment.

Dave
Wind Drifter
1970 Cal 29
Buzzards Bay

It will work out BUT you need to do some probing as that main bulkhead is REALLY WET the mast wires pass through a hole there and POOR WATER on it

ALL the six places were the chain-plates pass through are ROT HAVENS that need to be checked so the plates do NOT PULL OUT

 

[tailwind]

Only if you like doing that kind of stuff. There's something to be said for having full knowledge about all the systems in your sailboat. However, every boat needs work. That's usually why it's for sale. At some point an owner loses enthusiasm and it's time to sell. It's surprising what you can get for free or very little money these days.

 

[capnrick]

I've been living aboard my Hughes/Northstar 40 and fixing it up for the past few years. I do not quiver with self-hate, nor do I try to justify the money I have spent as a financial investment. I am restoring her because I want to, chose to and (more importantly) love to. I cannot describe the amount of gratification I feel when comparing photos then and now, or showing friends around the boat. I have done about 98% of the work myself so I have spent as wisely as possible and I have always tried to get the very best parts and materials that i could afford. As a result, I have a very nicely equipped and comfortable boat (home) and as a bonus I am intimately familiar with every square inch of her, every foot of tubing, every system. I shamelessly admit that it's more emotion than logic, but only to a point. As others have said, it's the only way some of us can afford a nicer, bigger boat but the experiences I have had during the time I have owned DreamChaser are priceless and irreplaceable. If you have bad feelings about spending money that might not give you an adequate return on your investment and if you look at your boat and see nothing but dollar signs, maybe boat ownership is really not for you.

 

[SailingHarry]

I've read all these posts, and most don't answer the question. It's not "is it better to buy a new boat than a used boat." It's not "is it better to buy a boat that needs some TLC than one that doesn't." It's not "Are older boats better boats than new ones." It is simply "Is a major fixer upper a good choice over a similar boat that has been maintained or already fixed up"

If you LIKE spending time and money on an old boat, then yes. It's not about the money, it's about what you want to do. If you want to sail, then NO, because you aren't doing what you want. If you want a 1980's boat because you like they way they are, or because you can't afford a 2012 model, there is no question -- a well fitted out 1980's boat is a much better deal than a poorly fitted, poorly maintained boat in need of refitting.

I looked at a 1980 or so Ericson 35. They were asking 20K for it. I offered 5K, and I'm glad they didn't take the offer. It would have needed an autopilot, roller furling, new sails all around, new running rigging all around, new dodger and bimini, new rub rail (it was half on the ground), and who knows what all. For the $20-30K it would need, I could have just bought a boat for that amount that would have had all that and self tailing winches and refrigeration and no rust stains on the countertops and so on. And I would have sailed it the first year. Yes, a better boat wouldn't have had NEW roller furling or all those thing -- but the used ones would still last a decade.

The boat I bought was a Sabre 34, well equipped, so at least I'm not spending money on "stuff." I paid half what they were asking, and 1/3 of what a comparable boat in good condition would have cost. But I've got over $5K in storage fees while I work on her. Work I can do, and do well. Work that will make me happy with the product. Work that keeps me from sailing the boat. Work that has become an "obligation," not a "hobby." At this point, with many hundreds of hours of labor, thousands of dollars in material costs, and thousands more in storage, I have a boat that is worth less than I paid for her (she's now a work in progress, which has zero curb appeal). And when I'm all done, I'll have paid (purchase, materials, and storage -- forget labor) what a good condition Sabre 34 would have cost, and I'll have missed a few years of sailing in the process. And frankly, I'm not sure she'll be much (if any) better than the good condition boat would have been. She'll still have 30 year old gel coat, furling, winches, and engine, she'll still have old sails, she'll still have crazed ports -- she'll still be a 30 year old boat! Just with the major problems fixed. And that other boat would probably have come with an anchor windlass, perhaps snazzy LED lights, maybe an asymmetric 'chute, or a few other toys my neglected boat never got and aren't (to me) worth the price to add them as new improvements -- but would have been great if they came with the boat at little if any additional cost.

No, my choice was penny wise and pound foolish.

Harry

 

[Ross]

All of my life I have wanted to build a boat. When I found a hull with the shape I wanted My dream was coming true. I stripped it to a bare hull and built the boat I wanted. I spent a lot of money and got the boat that I wanted. I doubt that I will ever find a buyer that will pay what the boat is technically worth but when I am finished with it I could give it away with no regrets.

 

[SailingHarry]

All of my life I have wanted to build a boat. When I found a hull with the shape I wanted My dream was coming true. I stripped it to a bare hull and built the boat I wanted. I spent a lot of money and got the boat that I wanted. I doubt that I will ever find a buyer that will pay what the boat is technically worth but when I am finished with it I could give it away with no regrets.

Ross,
You made the right choice for your objectives -- to build a boat. Not the cheapest way to go sailing. Not the easiest way, or the fastest way either. I think the OP was looking at it not from the point of how best to spend a lot of time, money, and labor to get exactly the boat he wanted, but rather how to get into a particular style and vintage of production boat quickly, easily, and the best value. For $30K, you can buy a very, very nice 35 foot 1980's boat in a variety of makes, very well equipped, very well maintained, and ready to go. But you may well not get the brand windlass you would have bought on your own and you may not know if the wire is tinned.

Many of the posters responding to this question have kind of implied that a tired boat starts off as a better deal than a good condition boat at the same price -- that they would prefer to have systems they personally installed even if the ones on the boat are fine. I also think that "restoration" is much more than servicing the winches, changing the oil, and buying a new main -- the OP was talking about deck rot, non-functional wiring, more intensive "restoration."

I have a friend who commented recently when I was grumbling about the effort and time my boat has been taking "what else would you do with your time." Simple -- go sailing! As much as I enjoy the satisfaction of each small project I complete, I didn't buy the boat so I could get the pleasure of a few years of working on it -- and I suspect most sailors look at it that way.

If the objective is to get a boat to enjoy sailing, the best value is clearly a well maintained boat. If the objective is to become intimately familiar with every system on the boat, to get exactly the equipment you want, to learn and become proficient in many facets of boat repair, and to be motivated by the idea of one day going sailing, then a tired boat can give you that satisfaction.

 

[bbowman294]

I think the ONE main thing you ae leaving out if you buy a boat that is "ready to go" is the experience you get restoring an older boat. Some of which are - fiberglass and/or wood repair, electrical systems, plumbing systems, capentry, and finishing to name a few. You wind up becoming very aware of every system in "your" boat. Something like owning an old car - every different sound you hear you become aware of a potential problem. Same with a boat you restore.