Does it still make sense to restore old boats?

Patboat1 · Oct 2, 2012

The bigger question to me is what's my expiration date?

The adage "They don't make them like they used to" can be applied to older vessels in a positive or negative connotation but you can't add on quality.

All boats require work from the day they leave the factory and if you'd rather spend more time sailing, then spend the money up front and buy a boat in better condition.

If you are asking yourself how much it can be sold for a few years down the line, then you might as well buy some bonds; they are a better investment.

If you are the type of person that enjoys a challenge and isn't afraid of hard work, then a project boat might be for you. Having some "hands on" skills always helps, or maybe some friends who do can make the experience more enjoyable.

How much is a beautiful sunset worth? Quality of life is the issue here, in my opinion, and if you are able to enjoy the fruits of your own labor, then it probably is worth doing.

Getting into a can of worms isn't, so be sure that you know what you are getting into before you jump. A surveyor may be the best investment when buying an older boat as
some boats may become lifetime projects.

And after all, we aren't here forever, so we might as well enjoy what we can while we are.

Steve Schwartz

joes new addiction · Oct 2, 2012

Does it make sense?
Well, that depemds on the person (or persons) who are about to embark on that journey.
Will you recoupe your $$ back, hell no!
So why do it?
If your someone like me, just the "project" the learning curve, the trials and tribuations of doing it, the "before" and "after", the bringing of a discarded P.O.S. back to life is enough.
In the 2 years I've been sailing I've done 2 boats, over my 54 years here on earth, I've revived numerious cars, trucks, motorcycles, houses, and when I look back at all of them, really they were really NEVER FINISHED, but when they went back into service I had pride in what I did.
The day I launched my last boat, after hundred of hours of working on her, (granted she wasn't a delict, just need TLC), when she floated off the trailer and later when I had the mast up and hoisted the sails and they filled, the FEELING of what I had done was enough.
I SWORE then I was through doing that "sheet" and from now on ALL my boats would be sail worthy, (that lasted til my tools wer put away, the shop cleaned, my hands bored and til I saw a poor orphan boat in a guys yard)!
So is it worth it? Depends.......
Joe
Any advice or things I do should be taken with a can er 2 of beer!

Squidd · Oct 2, 2012

Timeline may also play into your decision...

Up here in the northern lattatudes, sailing season/summer is only 4-5 months long...

Leaves 7-8 months of time to "do" some of these repairs, and still have a boat ready for sailing season...then next fall pull it out and do a little more...(hey wait, that's how my finances go too...what a coincidence !!)

So I have the best of both worlds..time and money (and a barn at home) to work on the boat ...AND a full season on the water enjoying the fruit of my labor...

Maine Sail · Oct 2, 2012

"Does it still make sense to restore old boats?"

Restore (re-store): To clean and repair something old and dirty or damage so that it looks the same as it did originally, to bring back to an original condition.

I think, with the exception of a few boats here, we have a divergence on what "restored" means.

Restored or Restoration :

*Complete re-finishing of exterior (top sides and deck) with Awl-Grip, gelcoat or another suitable marine finish (does not include a one part paint)
*Bottom stripped, faired, barrier coated and painted
*All deck hardware removed and re-bedded
*All ports and hatches removed & re-bedded
*Mast stripped and re-finished
*New standing and running rigging
*New mast wiring
*New sails
*New lifelines
*New Electronics
*All metals completely polished and any peeling chrome re-chromed
*Interior stripped and cleaned to bare gelcoat
*All exterior wood stripped and varnished or Cetol finished to new boat standards
*Any rotted wood completely replaced
*All seacocks removed inspected, cleaned and re-installed with new backers unless corrosion is present they they would get replaced.
*Interior fully re-finished
*New interior cushions
*Completely re-wired
*Keel dropped and re-set if any signs of "smiles" or weeping exists
*Replacement of keel bolts if rusted
*New sanitation and domestic plumbing
*Any deck core moisture cut into and repaired.
*Re-built or new engine
*Fuel tank cleaned
*All fuel hoses replaced
*New wet exhaust hose
*Steering pedestal reconditioned and brought up to new standards.
*Compass globe clear with no crazing and repaired if necessary
*Prop and shaft fully re-conditioned or new
*New stuffing box hose and stuffing box cleaned and or replaced if corrosion present
*Rudder dry and free of moisture and repaired or replaced if necessary
*Rudder gland cleaned and re-packed

Etc. etc.....

A RESTORATION is different from "I bought a used sail and a used motor, cleaned her and sold for a profit"..

In a real restoration it is very difficult if not impossible to turn any sort of profit on a "generic" boat.. The OP specifically asked if it made sense to "restore" an old "generic boat" not of you could buy one throw some used gear at it, clean it and turn a profit. I am taking the OP at the true definition of "restore" as I have seen many true "restorations". On a "generic boat" I don't think it makes much sense.

This is but one example a real RESTORATION: Glissando

Maine Sail · Oct 2, 2012

Jackdaw said:
Hey there Maine,

When I use the the notion of restore in relegation to old boat, my definition is a little more practical... And probably less expensive. I'd add one word to your definition.

'Bring back to original OPERATING condition'

I don't need everything to be new. I just want it to work and be seaworthy. To me it's the 90/10 rule applied to boats. If the vang works and the blocks and line look OK, I don't need a new one. But if something needs replacing, off it goes. But I'll often look for a good used part to replace it if that makes sense.

Ahhh, entirely different question. If that is the case YES if can make sense depending upon the "condition" and purchase price of the "generic" boat. Having seen, here in Maine, LOTS of complete restorations I took it literally as a "restoration"...

This: (photos courtesy Lackey Sailing LLC.)

To this:

More "restorations"..

Benny17441 · Oct 2, 2012

That is one question to be answered individually depending on each's own condition and interests.

spuki · Oct 2, 2012

Actually, from a monitory point of view, boating probably does not make sense at all! Therefore, I have to conclude it is an individual thing. If you have enough money you can get right into using your new boat by paying up front or getting on scheduled payments. There is the risk that you will lose interest before it is paid for, though! It basically boils down to what you are comfortable with financially and how you are with projects. We have owned a number of boats now. The only new ones have been of the dingy variety. I might also add that the projects are at least half the fun!

Thomas Redd · Oct 2, 2012

For several years I was out looking for a project boat for my first real sailboat. I thought it would be more afforable and fun. After all I had renovated several homes and was good with tools. I came close several times to buying a project boat. They all were missing important things like masts or even ballasts. These missing major items alway held me back. One day, I realized that a very nice trailered O'day 222 in the parking lot of small factory had been sitting there for well over a year. It was marked at $6,000. After several tries, I finally was able to talk to someone in the plant who knew something and he told me the owner now lived in Florida (the opposite end of the country from Michigan) and he wanted to sell it. I was given a price of $2,500. I threw out a price of $2,000 and it was a deal. I was surprised that the boat had absolutely everything, even a very nice outboard (stored inside with the sails) which started on the first pull. Heck it even had the little canvas "booties" to cover the winches. I have been learning to sail in it and I do have to say that it is prefect for me. It sails nicely and the cabin is great. I only had to do some minor repairs and of course cleaning and waxing. On the other hand a friend of mine was given the same size boat as a project boat. He has had to purchase new sails and other items. He has put almost as much in his boat as I have and it is not near as comfortable or complete. But he is very happy with it which is the important thing. My point is that I agree that if one shops around, that a great sailboat deal is certainly possible. Project boats can be fun as long as they are not viewed as an investment. By the way I am restoring a 1989 Ford Bronco which I picked up for for $300 to tow my boat. Apparently, Broncos are becoming a "cult" vehicle and I am just thrilled that I am finally in my old age learning how to do automotive painting.

newboatowner · Oct 2, 2012

Joe vandenEnden said:
Exactly.

I quiver with self-hate when I tally up what I've spent on fixing up my old boats. However, there's no way I could've come up with the money needed to buy these in the shape they're now in, as another poster said. Besides, I would've spent those nickels and dimes on something less worthwhile anyway.

That said, I'll not do it again; I just can't raise the gumption for another project boat.
Until, maybe, next year.

After not owning or sailing a boat for 25 years and after a coronary, I decided that I really needed to get out on the water so I searched and found a Catalina 30 that was 95% complete from a rebuild. I guess the former owner got disgusted and gave up. I paid a fair price for what looked like a great boat that was immediately sail worthy from my perspective. Luckly, it did not sink but it has taken alot of time and money to get it up to date. I do a vast majority of my own work and get a great deal of satisfaction from the results. That is something money cannot buy. If you have no idea which is the business end of a screw driver then buying a rebuild is a collosal waste of money.

anchorclanker · Oct 2, 2012

Its true, it is almost always a poor decision from an economic standpoint to restore some boat or car or plane. The classifieds are filled with items people have spent four or five times more restoring than they are now selling them for.

On the other hand, people buy new things, boats, cars, airplanes, use them a while, and sell them for a quarter or less than what they paid.

So whats the difference? The only difference is ones perception of what seems right, to them. In the big picture the costs are the same, they just offer different pleasures. If restoring some old thing lets you spend time alone with your thoughts, heals your soul, or allows bonding time with your wife or son or daughter, whats that worth? Its probably worth as much as another who buys the newest thing, who tries to accomplish the same goals.

Bob S · Oct 2, 2012

Aren't all our boats a work in progress

dcfleming · Oct 2, 2012

Dollar and cents aside… I’m way more impressed and interested by someone who took an aged boat, restored it, and has the before and after photos to show for it than someone who bought the biggest and newest boat they could finance. Those heavily financed bragging rights die quickly but the pride from a restoration lives on much longer…

Ross · Oct 2, 2012

If you have the skills, time, perserverence, and vision to take a bare hull and make of it the boat that you would purchase if you could find it then do it. Don't expect anyone to tell you that it makes good business sense. People do this all the time with houses often because the location is the best feature of the house and they know that everything else can be changed. With a boat you start with hull shape and lines if those please you then you have a blank slate on which to create.

Scott T-Bird · Oct 2, 2012

I think it really comes down to being a savvy shopper. It also comes down to the experience we gain in our previous purchase(s) become savvy enough to look for the details of a prospective boat to determine if it is worth the time and money to turn a project into a boat that you want to enjoy or to keep looking for that boat that may be more expensive, but is set-up for maximum value in the initial price.

I think the point Jackdaw is driving at in this thread is that there are a lot of bargains out there right now for boats that are in good condition. It may not be a smart idea to buy the cheaper boat that is going to cost more money in the long run, when you can buy more value for less money than you would sink into a project boat at this particular point in time.

zeehag · Oct 2, 2012

got mine as a project and have not broken my back --and i am on limited income---and i LOVE this boat..is fun to sail and travel with her-. she was a great bargain--there are some out there--but ye have to sniff em out well--some end up coming to you, as i have found.

Calif. Ted · Oct 2, 2012

I'd rather sail it than work on it, while I get a warm fuzzy feeling looking at my recently installed new head and hoses I also see a day at sea I'll never get back.
Look at Maine's first post, every day one person is fixing a bargain boat the other is sailing his. I think too many people decide to go sailing and end up working on bargain boats that are never done. I've seen an awful lot of people just give it up after a few years.

zeehag · Oct 2, 2012

i got a warm fuzzy feeling knowing i bought a home i can sail anywhere for 10,000usd--and only had to so far , put into it a total of less than 8,000usd...and i will, if i ever decide to sell her, sell for over 50,000usd. not bad, so far, eh???
i love my cruiser. if it floats and if it sails, repair it underway!!!

of course, cannot do that with racers.....
and smaller boats than 30 ft are a dime per dozen, in various conditions.

jrowan · Oct 2, 2012

jrowan said:
I'm probably one of the few sailors that has actually made money on every boat that I've bought & sold. I don't think it's luck, its just common sense. The bottom line is you have to buy low & sell high. You also have to buy a boat that has a good look to it in the first place. Don't buy ugly boats. Grampians come to mind - lol. Don't buy them when they're too far gone. Avoid teak decks or woodies. I always look for boats that are desirable & always in demand, such as almost everything Catalina ever built. I have three basic requirements: it has to have a working engine, useable sails & an intact hull & deck. Cosmetics can always be fixed as time & money allow. But if she doesn't function as a sailboat then that's a deal breaker. Engine rebuilds & new sails are too expensive to ever make money when flipping a boat. Boats that were previously raced tend to have rigging upgrades & tons of sail inventory, that is expensive.

Now the specifics. My first restore boat was the common Catalina 25, c. 1985. Bought her for $1,200 bucks from as a donation to a boat museum. She had a good working outboard, sails, roller furling & trailer. Spent about a grand to fix a crack in the swing keel trunk, recovered the cabin cushions, & sold her a year later for $7,500. Profit: $5k.

Took that money & bought an S-2 28 foot racer / cruiser. She had a coral reef growing on her hull, which looked bad, but she was otherwise in great shape. Spent a grand on a haul out & bottom job. Bought her for rock bottom 5k, sold her a year later for $15,000. Profit: $8k.
I've been considering buying her back from the marina where the idiot buyer proceeded to wreck the boat every time he tried to sail her. If I do buy her back, it'll only be for $2,500.

I took the profit from the S 2 sale & bought a Catalina 30, 1980 (I do tend to avoid 1970's vintage because it just sounds older). I love 1980's vintage boats because they tend to be somewhat overbuilt, & they're a heck of a lot cheaper then 90's era. I bought the C 30 for $9k with a rebuilt diesel, newer UK Halsey sails, & new electrical panel. She just needed some love, & new cabin cushions. She is now worth a good 20k, which I will eventually put into the next, bigger boat. Unfortunately, boats over 30 feet get exponentially more expensive. But I hope to move up next to a Catalina 34 or an O'Day 34 that we used to have as a family boat.

As in most things , when U sell it has to LOOK GOOD. If you want to get good money the engine has to look good, no oil leaks, repaint it. Recover the cushions if they look worn. (ps. Wallmart sells bolts of Sunbrella knock off fabric for only a hundred bucks a bolt)
Get rid of smells & leak stains. Send worn sails out to a sail loft & restitch & clean 'em.
Wax the hull topsides. Have a diver clean the hull & running gear of she's been in the water for a while. If she looks good to you, she will to someone else as well.
The last advice is to price them right for the size of the boat. Research the competition. You cannot make money on really expensive newer boats from the 1990's yet, because the initial purchase price is too high. But I'll be waiting for them, when the prices come down to earth.

So long story short, hell yes you can make money buying & restoring Good Ol' Boats.

I thought that someone might be impressed that I proved that you can indeed make a profit on buying an older vintage sailboat, fixing her up (not totally restoring) and the selling on the upside. I've actually makde 20k in profit from the sale of my last 4 boats. That's nothing to sneeze at, & I had a great time fixing these boats up, sailing them, and leaving them a lot better off then when I got em. So my experience proves it can be done. But to Mainsail, I respect your point of view, but you have to be realistic about what the average sailor should invest in an old boat. Your idea of a restoration is a complete rebuild to new standards. While this is a boat yard's wet dream, its not mine. Take a decent boat, not a basket case, get the engine running, rigging to safe standards, sails restitched, hull & keel faired, new bottom job, wax the topsides, and go sailing. I leave pulling keels off and recoring decks to the hardcore folks who enjoy punishment & emptying their wallets.

But to the average sailor with a keen eye for a bargain, you can indeed make money in fixing up good ol' boats. I enjoy bottom feeding through Craigs list and Spinsheet, and trolling around marinas looking for my next project. I personally wouldn't have touched that old Pearson in your restoration pics with a 10 foot pole. You can indeed restore anything, but that doesn't mean that you should. I admit that my project boats must be structurally sound, have running (or close to) working engines, decent sails & rigging, etc.
My neighbor at the boat yard had a 70's Choy Lee right next to my C- 30.
We both paid about 10 k for our boats. My refit took about 2 months and 3k.
His boat with curling teak decks, rotted wooden bowsprit, & engine rebuild took him 9 months & 10 k or more to fix. In the end our boats will be worth about the same money, but I have invested half the time, $$ & labor.
While his Choy Lee sure looks salty, my boat was a way better investment,
and I'm sailing & sipping my drink in the marina, while he's sanding his ass off.
Cheers.

anchorclanker · Oct 2, 2012

jrowan said:
and I'm sailing & sipping my drink in the marina, while he's sanding his ass off.
Cheers.

Now thats funny.

You see muscle cars today with perfect fit panels and clear coat paints, far more perfect than they ever were new. Vintage Ferrari's today, if restored, are almost unrecognizable to the men who played with them when they were new, they are over restored. Why would fully restored boats be any different?

But then you have the survivors. The class of machines that are not no nice and perfect you cant scratch them, but which are fully safe, clean and functional, and presentable. I like those more. The semi worn blue jeans with a grease mark kind of stuff.