I agree 100%. Time spent doing what you enjoy, working with your hands and mind, is time well spent.
Hell, I'd rather work on someones elses boat for free than rot in front of the tube. Or on a barstool.
Does it still make sense to restore old boats?
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Hell, I'd rather work on someones elses boat for free than rot in front of the tube. Or on a barstool.
I think it's a given that most of us would rather have a project boat to sink money into rather than swilling beer and sitting on a barstool ... but the question remains ... is it really worthwhile to get into a project boat?
Think about it this way. When there are great boats on the market at bargain prices, why spend your time repairing fiberglass, rebedding hardware and buying new components at retail price and then spending hours doing the installations when you could probably have all that great stuff in a boat that is ready to sail and you may not have to pay much for it. Anybody who puts new components in an old boat will never get that value back out of it. I put myself in that category.
Buying a boat at the end of the project is probably far more economical than buying one to make it a project. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of ads for boats that have undergone recent re-fits.
Think about it this way. When there are great boats on the market at bargain prices, why spend your time repairing fiberglass, rebedding hardware and buying new components at retail price and then spending hours doing the installations when you could probably have all that great stuff in a boat that is ready to sail and you may not have to pay much for it. Anybody who puts new components in an old boat will never get that value back out of it. I put myself in that category.
Buying a boat at the end of the project is probably far more economical than buying one to make it a project. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of ads for boats that have undergone recent re-fits.
I think your question is a great one right now. I think the answer is more likely, no. Fun aside in a DIY restoration(I've done my share), you're asking an economical question.
The plummeting value of older sailboats has been dramatic in the last decade. While newer sailboats(but a couple decades old perhaps), have held their value much better, especially sought after designs, overall, they've dropped significantly as well. Also effected in this soft market are older boats that have been well maintained and upgraded by their owners.
To buy the neglected boat, that's seen few upgrades, pay for the needed parts and installation(or if you do it yourself, and value your time...), the best value today in the used boat market looks like the best maintained, newer, and upgraded boats,(of all used boat ages) to me.
I own a 51 year old fiberglass boat that I love but today, I'd look for the best maintained and most upgraded sister ship to buy.
I'm enjoying this discussion thread. I bet that I have one of the oldest boats here in a 1967 Tartan 27'. It is still in very good shape and we got 1st in our beer can Weds. races this year (with a new main sail).
We've got our mooring and storage fees down to < $2K a year and I split it with my boat partner. I couldn't afford to spend the usual $3+ K per year that most places charge.
Did I have to learn to be an engine mechanic for the Atomic 4 engine? Yes. Saved a lot of money and learned a lot.
Did I have to learn a lot about boat maintenance, rigging and upkeep? Yes.
Saved a lot of money and learned a lot.
If I had a bigger checkbook I might go for a newer boat, but by now I know my boat and I am attached to it. The price has been right even if I have to give her away or pay to have her ... dumpstered when that time comes.
There are projects and then there are projects. Being old for a boat is one thing but finding a boat that has been well cared for by the previous owners (PO) is another. When we bought our T27 everything worked and was in good enough shape to sail it home the 80 miles it took.
That is when the maintenance lessons began. At 45 years old our Atomic 4 still purrs and is raw water cooled.
It is what you can afford that determines a newer or older boat in your future.
http://www.odalisque.us/
We've got our mooring and storage fees down to < $2K a year and I split it with my boat partner. I couldn't afford to spend the usual $3+ K per year that most places charge.
Did I have to learn to be an engine mechanic for the Atomic 4 engine? Yes. Saved a lot of money and learned a lot.
Did I have to learn a lot about boat maintenance, rigging and upkeep? Yes.
Saved a lot of money and learned a lot.
If I had a bigger checkbook I might go for a newer boat, but by now I know my boat and I am attached to it. The price has been right even if I have to give her away or pay to have her ... dumpstered when that time comes.
There are projects and then there are projects. Being old for a boat is one thing but finding a boat that has been well cared for by the previous owners (PO) is another. When we bought our T27 everything worked and was in good enough shape to sail it home the 80 miles it took.
That is when the maintenance lessons began. At 45 years old our Atomic 4 still purrs and is raw water cooled.
It is what you can afford that determines a newer or older boat in your future.
http://www.odalisque.us/
Built a trailer...store at marina 4-5 months a year and take it home for off season maintenance....
4 x $80/mo (dry slip0 $320
2 x $150 (step mast) $300
$600/yr and I'm on Lake Superior/Apostle Islands
Yes, it certainly does.
Very few manufacturer's make boats under 33 feet. A new 30ish foot is about $100,000 :
How many people would be on the water at that cost? Not me.
But I do agree that it is cheaper over the long haul to buy the best boat you can. I bought the best S2 9.2A on the market in my area at the time. I could have bought a fixer upper for less...but it was worth it to get a 2 cyl yanmar instead of a one (based on advice from this site)...without gelcoat blisters. The only other two cylinder boat on the market had them.
Is my boat perfect? No.
I could easily put $5K into it and still only sell it for what I paid for it. About $20K. People are amazing. They all expect something for nothing. I was happy to get a boat with a new North main ($3K), Fairclough winter cover, color chartplotter and a drifter with a sock for that price. Getting a boat at what was the highest price was worth it as it was equipped as I wanted it.
However, if I spent the $5K a well respected local rigger wanted to rerig my boat...including a new furler...when there is nothing wrong with the existing one...I would NEVER get that back.
As with everything in life. You make the best decision at the time, live with the consequences and try to enjoy the ride.
Very few manufacturer's make boats under 33 feet. A new 30ish foot is about $100,000 :
How many people would be on the water at that cost? Not me.
But I do agree that it is cheaper over the long haul to buy the best boat you can. I bought the best S2 9.2A on the market in my area at the time. I could have bought a fixer upper for less...but it was worth it to get a 2 cyl yanmar instead of a one (based on advice from this site)...without gelcoat blisters. The only other two cylinder boat on the market had them.
Is my boat perfect? No.
I could easily put $5K into it and still only sell it for what I paid for it. About $20K. People are amazing. They all expect something for nothing. I was happy to get a boat with a new North main ($3K), Fairclough winter cover, color chartplotter and a drifter with a sock for that price. Getting a boat at what was the highest price was worth it as it was equipped as I wanted it.
However, if I spent the $5K a well respected local rigger wanted to rerig my boat...including a new furler...when there is nothing wrong with the existing one...I would NEVER get that back.
As with everything in life. You make the best decision at the time, live with the consequences and try to enjoy the ride.
It can make sense if the boat is in demand and unique.
I restored a Stiletto cat from the 70s (Kevlar honeycomb, only produced a few years, easy to restore, and way ahead of its time). Even counting sweat, I made a solid very profit on it, AND sailed it for 15 years.
So I would pick a boat with an established resale market, something that makes it a stand-out.
I restored a Stiletto cat from the 70s (Kevlar honeycomb, only produced a few years, easy to restore, and way ahead of its time). Even counting sweat, I made a solid very profit on it, AND sailed it for 15 years.
So I would pick a boat with an established resale market, something that makes it a stand-out.
When I look back at all the money and time I spent on my 1987 catalina, I would probably not do it again. That being said, almost every thing on the boat is brand new. Had I put the same money into a boat that was only a few years old, I would still be sailing with older sails, using older electronics, lying on cushions that someone else stained, and peeing in a toilet that someone else.... well you get the idea!
The one good thing is that I know where every single electrical circuit and splice on my boat is, where every plumbing connection is, and if there is a leak somewhere, I will have a pretty good idea of where it is coming from. I've learned more about boat systems in two years than I learned about, well anything, in college.
I know more about diesel engines than I ever knew about the gas engines in the cars I've driven all my life. In fact, I am planning to rebuild my engine this winter. That would make everything but the fiberglass virtually brand new!
The one good thing is that I know where every single electrical circuit and splice on my boat is, where every plumbing connection is, and if there is a leak somewhere, I will have a pretty good idea of where it is coming from. I've learned more about boat systems in two years than I learned about, well anything, in college.
I know more about diesel engines than I ever knew about the gas engines in the cars I've driven all my life. In fact, I am planning to rebuild my engine this winter. That would make everything but the fiberglass virtually brand new!
For me a proud owner of a Newport 17,I love sailing, and seeing a old boat sailing in the water is a great joy to me!! So my two cents is? If you can ,sail! If u can't dream? My dream boat is a m26. Never be able to afford it,but I can dream.
I have done this 5 times and the 6th boat is in my yard now and the 7th may be added soon...
so I'm probably NOT the person you want to listen to... I'm obviously ill.
But! to answer your question about cost.... I have a mantra I live by (most of the time) when buying an older boat. If the rigging is sound and the hull and deck solid, then you have a nice free boat to work with. What you are paying for is the outboard, sails and trailer. REPEAT! The boat is FREE!. If hull and rigging are sound, then a little fiberglass, paint and plywood can turn that thick 70's hull into a really solid boat. I have a 1974 Rhodes right now and it took me over 10 layers of fiberglass cloth to fill in a hole. They just don't make hulls that thick anymore. But if you have to go buy a set of sails, a trailer and and outboard then the price differential changes fast.
2 cent and probably not worth it.
r
so I'm probably NOT the person you want to listen to... I'm obviously ill.
But! to answer your question about cost.... I have a mantra I live by (most of the time) when buying an older boat. If the rigging is sound and the hull and deck solid, then you have a nice free boat to work with. What you are paying for is the outboard, sails and trailer. REPEAT! The boat is FREE!. If hull and rigging are sound, then a little fiberglass, paint and plywood can turn that thick 70's hull into a really solid boat. I have a 1974 Rhodes right now and it took me over 10 layers of fiberglass cloth to fill in a hole. They just don't make hulls that thick anymore. But if you have to go buy a set of sails, a trailer and and outboard then the price differential changes fast.
2 cent and probably not worth it.
r
In short my answer is an unequivocal NO! But, this is based on my definition of "restore"..
Having grown up around concourse quality show cars a "restoration" to me is what 25YearsLater or folks like Tim Lackey of Lackey Sailing do to boats like Glissando.
I have watched far too many people pour gobs of money into a "fixer upper" and still not be "done" or have done a "restoration" yet are sooo upside down in the boat, from a fair market value proposition, that it makes it a very foolish investment, not that any boat isn't.
The idea that it costs less when restoring "pay check to pay check" is also not sound. You still spend more over time that you would having paid a lump sum for a clean and ready to go boat. It may feel like you paid less but only in rare occasions would you.
If a boat is rare a "resto" can be a great option but to bring a "generic old fiberglass boat from the 70s or 80s back to life" when you can buy one already brought back to life for a fraction more than what you'd need to spend is not a wise choice. All boats need work even boats in the top 2% so you will ALWAYS have time to putter and work on a boat.
Here's a prime example. A neighbor enlisted my advice when looking at two Catalina 30's. One was in top notch condition, a genuine pristine boat needing nothing but your own fresh linens. The other boat needed nearly everything and was very poorly maintained and cared for but less $$$$$. My neighbor got hung up on the $$$$ aspect and not in the REALITY aspect despite hours of discussions. He fit the true definition of naive or inexperienced buyer, he knows that now..... .Some things you simply can not teach.
Both boats were the same year, same model and only 8k apart in asking price with the most expensive, at that time, being about 32k. Fast forward three years....
A gear box
A re-power
New standing riging
New Furler
New running rigging
New canvas
New sails
Numerous deck core repairs
Wiring upgrades
Batteries
Interior cushions
Wet bulkhead repair
Keel repairs
Bottom job
etc. etc. etc.
By the time the boat was "close to" as good as the one for 32k, which he likely could have purchased for 29k, he was sooo upside down it was not even laughable.. For the "junker" he paid 24k which was only approx a 5k up front difference. Three years later he had over 60k (35k in fixing up NOT even a restoration) into a 24k purchase price Catalina 30.:cussing:
Sadly the boat was still worth 28-29k just what the one he didn't buy could have been purchased for.... For 5k more the other boat was already there. This little escapade in penny pinching the initial purchase price cost him $25,000.00 more........ Moral of the story, don't be penny wise pound foolish....
A little more up front, on a pristine example of the boat you want, often goes a LOOOOOOONG way....
My boat is not a big cruiser and the money is much smaller. However, the answer is yes for my size.
Bought my boat for $900 with a slip for a year. It had no engine and no trailer(Which is how I negotiated for the slip). On Lake Lanier a slip costs $1400 a year at the cheapest marina. I was able to start sailing two weeks after I bought it. Just had to do a few repairs to the rudder and rigging. Bought an electric trolling motor(on a lake) which is now my backup. This allowed me to search for the perfect outboard and still sail. $200 for a 10hp Johnson. Quick rebuild of lower end(seals and water pump), carburetor rebuild and tune up $80. I have been sailing for three years now. Time to redo the brightwork and I will have to redo the bottom paint again this winter/spring. I have spent $500 on a tandem axle trailer and spent $200 for new tires. I bought a simple navigation/fishfinder $300. Marine radio $250.
My main expenses are dock lines that the sun eats and fuel for the gas hog outboard. I notice that new boats get dirty too. They need to have bottom paint redone, the sun eats their brightwork and their dock lines wear out also.
Not in the class of a big cruiser. However, I have been able to sail and since this is bigger than my last boat, Venture 22, I can now sleep on a full size inflatable bed that is more comfortable than my bed at home.
I know that if I had to rent a boat for the amount of time I have been floating, sailing, cruising, fishing and just messing around I would be broke for the rest of my life.
Also I am not afraid to put a hole in her to make a modification. If I get a scratch it is not nearly the first and I just repair it. I can set it up any way I want to set it up and not worry about resale value.
Mostly I am just so proud that she floats.
Teaching my kids to sail; Priceless.
Bought my boat for $900 with a slip for a year. It had no engine and no trailer(Which is how I negotiated for the slip). On Lake Lanier a slip costs $1400 a year at the cheapest marina. I was able to start sailing two weeks after I bought it. Just had to do a few repairs to the rudder and rigging. Bought an electric trolling motor(on a lake) which is now my backup. This allowed me to search for the perfect outboard and still sail. $200 for a 10hp Johnson. Quick rebuild of lower end(seals and water pump), carburetor rebuild and tune up $80. I have been sailing for three years now. Time to redo the brightwork and I will have to redo the bottom paint again this winter/spring. I have spent $500 on a tandem axle trailer and spent $200 for new tires. I bought a simple navigation/fishfinder $300. Marine radio $250.
My main expenses are dock lines that the sun eats and fuel for the gas hog outboard. I notice that new boats get dirty too. They need to have bottom paint redone, the sun eats their brightwork and their dock lines wear out also.
Not in the class of a big cruiser. However, I have been able to sail and since this is bigger than my last boat, Venture 22, I can now sleep on a full size inflatable bed that is more comfortable than my bed at home.
I know that if I had to rent a boat for the amount of time I have been floating, sailing, cruising, fishing and just messing around I would be broke for the rest of my life.
Also I am not afraid to put a hole in her to make a modification. If I get a scratch it is not nearly the first and I just repair it. I can set it up any way I want to set it up and not worry about resale value.
Mostly I am just so proud that she floats.
Teaching my kids to sail; Priceless.
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It's bad enough trying to sell a late model sailboat without taking a hit...even if you were wise enough to buy it used in the first place. Now go out a get what you think is a good deal on a 70's or 80's vessel that has as they say "good bones". Fix her up, sail it for a few years and then see how difficult it will be to sell. Not that many buyers out there. You could be stuck with the thing for years and that will really cost you some dough. Do I smell smoke?
I think the best way to take the smallest hit would be to buy a production brand 5 year old boat (30% depreciation on the back of the first owner). Keep it for a few seasons and then unload it before the really expensive stuff starts breaking. Actually, everything on boats is expensive...what was I thinking?
I think the best way to take the smallest hit would be to buy a production brand 5 year old boat (30% depreciation on the back of the first owner). Keep it for a few seasons and then unload it before the really expensive stuff starts breaking. Actually, everything on boats is expensive...what was I thinking?
OK i am gonna chime in here.....i understand the price thing absolutly.....now ponder this....i am in the middle of refitting a 1979 S2 9.2 and getting closer everyday to splash down.....when i got this boat about 3 years and 15 days ago it was a total mess from hull up to the standing rigging......blisters..running rigging...interior was water damaged..needs complete upholstery through out...electrial wiring in very bad shape...you can say all i really got was a shell with lots of stuff that need to go away and be replaced.....so fast forward to where i am now i have most of the things in various areas of stageing...at this point ...oh i didn't even get to really start working on it until about 12 months ago ...but thats OK because i have had a lot of time to read the post on here and make decisions regarding the rebuild while all along gathering up what i need to do this refit....either by luck..kindness of others..or my crazy horse trading along the way....and up until day before yesterday had a December splash goal ....but some thing has come up that will help me with the final finances that will post pone my splash date for about 2 to 3 more months...but thats OK ...as i have learned over the years if you bide your time things will fall into place..maybe not as you expect them to but they will ....i would love to be sitting my boat in December celebrating Christmas this year...but its OK if its later on.....i don't intend to short change this project.....as it will more than likely be the only sail boat i ever own...so its well worth the waite....granted i don't have a heath issue or other unforeseen things.....to tell you the truth i would not have missed what i am doing in regards to this boat for anything in the world.....it has been a blast in short burst....i can assure that i will have more pride in my boat than if i had been able to afford the finest Hinkley ever built...and they are very good boats..... to sum up this long winded story.... in the end i will have about 12 to 14 grand in the project out of pocket expense and the boat will probably not be worth 15 to 18 grand in the market place...but i could never purchase the enjoyment i have and am having doing this...and i will put forth as much effort in learning how to use it when that time comes.....monatarly speaking i could have been sailing 2 years ago on some thing else for that kind of money but it would have been a passing fad i would think.....so to answer the question is instant gratification really worth it no way......but that is just me...
regards
woody
regards
woody
Some people love the labor and don't think about the "investment", but rather they just enjoy the process and the work involved. The choice of the boat would make the difference for me. My boat is nice, but it's not a classic and therefore I would tend to agree with those who say it wouldn't be worth bringing back to life if it were obtained in a state of complete disrepair. On the other hand, there's a guy two slips down from me who owns an Ensign and honestly I think I could take a major plunge for restoring one of those for two reasons.
1) The hull and decks seem like they are about an inch thick, having been produced at a time when I'm guessing manufacturers didn't know how thin fiberglass could be. It's relatively bomb proof, a very solid set of bones to work with.
2) It's one of the most beautiful daysailers ever, designed by one of the most renowned sailboat designers. If I had one of them I'd feel more like a steward of an historical artifact than a boat owner.
But a 1980 ODay 23? Don't get me wrong, it's a well built, good looking, nice design. Still, it's not an Ensign.
1) The hull and decks seem like they are about an inch thick, having been produced at a time when I'm guessing manufacturers didn't know how thin fiberglass could be. It's relatively bomb proof, a very solid set of bones to work with.
2) It's one of the most beautiful daysailers ever, designed by one of the most renowned sailboat designers. If I had one of them I'd feel more like a steward of an historical artifact than a boat owner.
But a 1980 ODay 23? Don't get me wrong, it's a well built, good looking, nice design. Still, it's not an Ensign.
I paid $4500.00 cash for my 82 Cal 25-2. It was sail-able but needed some work and I have had it for about 4 years now. I've already received $4500.00 worth of joy out of the boat so if it sinks tomorrow I feel I've already gotten my money out of it . Yes I have spent more on fixing it up nicer and many many man hours working on it. But the man hours I count as part of the joy. Frankly I could never afford a boat that would require a mortgage. So basically if I couldn't buy an older boat, it is very likely I wouldn't be able to have a boat at all. Working on your own older boat means that you become allot more intimate with every inch of her. you learn all her strengths and weaknesses. You also lean allot of skills that people who buy new boats may never learn. Some have no clue what makes their boat tick. Besides if you are not sailing or working on your boat then you are probably someplace else and I can't think of a single place I had rather be. I didn't buy my boat as a financial investment and don't expect to make money in selling it. So the anwer could be as has been said before...it depends on your particular circumstances and desires.
Restoring an old boat doesn't make economic sense, but there are other reasons to do it.
- you simply enjoy doing the work
- you want to know every square inch of the boat is in top notch shape
- you want the boat to be better than new
- it is easier from a cash flow basis
{I think these have already been stated but not so succintly ;-) }
If you would rather sail a boat than work on a boat, buy one that is ship shape and know that you are probably saving money.
There are fellows who enjoy working on boats as much or more than sailing them and they will fix a boat up to better than new condition, sail it a few times and be wanting to make room for the next project. You can buy a better than new boat for much less than a new boat in that case.
- you simply enjoy doing the work
- you want to know every square inch of the boat is in top notch shape
- you want the boat to be better than new
- it is easier from a cash flow basis
{I think these have already been stated but not so succintly ;-) }
If you would rather sail a boat than work on a boat, buy one that is ship shape and know that you are probably saving money.
There are fellows who enjoy working on boats as much or more than sailing them and they will fix a boat up to better than new condition, sail it a few times and be wanting to make room for the next project. You can buy a better than new boat for much less than a new boat in that case.
From an economic pov, hands down the answer is no.
I recently bought a 1969 Pearson 300. They only made 117 of them and I own hull #112. I live aboard all summer, and it's the most perfect design for me I've ever seen. I love everything about it. I love how liveable it is, how it sails and handles. It has more room inside than most 40' boats due to an extended pilot house. I've never felt more at home in a boat and that includes some MUCH larger yachts. It's only 30 feet.
I paid $4,000 for the boat. I plan on spending well over $30,000 this winter in updates and restoration. This may not make sense from a financial point, but when all is said and done, I'll have the most perfect yacht I'll ever own in my lifetime.
I recently bought a 1969 Pearson 300. They only made 117 of them and I own hull #112. I live aboard all summer, and it's the most perfect design for me I've ever seen. I love everything about it. I love how liveable it is, how it sails and handles. It has more room inside than most 40' boats due to an extended pilot house. I've never felt more at home in a boat and that includes some MUCH larger yachts. It's only 30 feet.
I paid $4,000 for the boat. I plan on spending well over $30,000 this winter in updates and restoration. This may not make sense from a financial point, but when all is said and done, I'll have the most perfect yacht I'll ever own in my lifetime.
My two cent
Is an older boat worth the restore price? If you want to sip pina coladas in your slip without raising a sweat, then stay away from the older boats. But if you want to learn almost every system in your boat and then some, I'd say an education is priceless. There is also the joy of accomplishment knowing you have mastered challenging situations. What is the value of that? That is a personal answer I guess. I am smarter today than before I took on the challenges.
Is an older boat worth the restore price? If you want to sip pina coladas in your slip without raising a sweat, then stay away from the older boats. But if you want to learn almost every system in your boat and then some, I'd say an education is priceless. There is also the joy of accomplishment knowing you have mastered challenging situations. What is the value of that? That is a personal answer I guess. I am smarter today than before I took on the challenges.
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