Chicken Jibe

[Jackdaw]

"Out of control" in my book is some hapless skipper broaching to windward with the chute up, followed by an uncontrolled jibe resulting in dismasting. Or, some other fool with his spinnaker flying from the mast head like a flag, sheet(s) to the wind, dragging the boat down the course is out of control. Or a skipper whose boat pirouettes in a strong gust going to weather, then jibes (uncontrolled) and comes shooting back at me is out of control. But a skipper finishing a race by "chicken jibing" down the course after being surprised by a 40-kt squall that snapped the halyard shackle and put the chute in the water from which it was retrieved is NOT out of control, IMHO. If a boat can tack under main sail alone it should also be able to make progress to windward, if necessary, to avoid collision, or whatever.

Not for me. If your boat requires 4 crew to sail at the time and 3 are cowering in the cockpit, and you can't turn down because of that and other reasons, you are out of control. Crap happens. Its not anyone's fault.

Maybe we just have different expectations on ability and control of our boats. We race our boats HARD. There have been times when I considered us out of control. That means I could not do whatever I wanted or needed to do at that time, but was locked into a smaller set of choices. It happens. But I would never claim that I did at that time was some some sort of 'poster child' choice of maneuver at the time. Most the time I just smile and be thankful we didn't break anything.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw. Nice photo and it looks like great conditions and I would have a grin ear to ear in those conditions. I also notice that you have a reef in the main and a small jib. I had a tall rig main fully hoised and no head sail in forty knots as measured by the committee boat.

According to the Harkin mainsheet load calculator, my main in 30knts generates a sheet load of 3760lbs. At 40knts this load increases to 6684lbs. With no jib to balance the forces, it was impossible to get the boat to jibe. When you start to turn down the wind hits the main like a big old barn door and slams you back the other way.

In Don's original post, he stated "In strong winds or gusty conditions my suggestions to beginners is to use the "chicken jibe" because it's a safer method." I concur completely with this statement and will add that when sailing short handed in storm conditions it is also safer for the experienced skipper.

Hmm. Thats a bold statement. have you ever been near something like that boat? We've had very good racers on board that were spooked by the boat for several days. The Pogo's mainsail is larger than your entire boat's sailplan, and that includes your spinnaker. Reefed its close. We reefed because we had sails matched to conditions.

My point in mentioning this is that you questioning my qualification about sailing in breeze. I sail and race on a lot of high performance boats and programs around the world. In all conditions. I have a pretty decent idea about what is fast and what is not and how to be fast in any conditions.

Doing a chicken jibe is absolutely prudent if you think a jibe is too much for you, your crew, your boat based on conditions. But to make broad claims that is it the fastest thing to do because 'someone could lose a mast' is just plain silly.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Not for me. If your boat requires 4 crew to sail at the time and 3 are cowering in the cockpit, and you can't turn down because of that and other reasons, you are out of control. Crap happens. Its not anyone's fault.

Maybe we just have different expectations on ability and control of our boats. We race our boats HARD. There have been times when I considered us out of control. That means I could not do whatever I wanted or needed to do at that time, but was locked into a smaller set of choices. It happens. But I would never claim that I did at that time was some some sort of 'poster child' choice of maneuver at the time. Most the time I just smile and be thankful we didn't break anything.

I cannot speak for your seamanship or boat but Papillion can easily be sailed single handed and I have done so on numerous occasion in storm conditions to 55 knots so your comment "If your boat requires 4 crew to sail at the time" is completely incorrect. I often take first time sailors on a crew for races because I believe that it is the best way to introduce new sailors to the sport of sailing. in doing so I fully understand that I will often need to sail in a less than optimal configuration. remember, Don started this thread with the statement that he recommends CJs for inexperienced sailors because it is safer and I will add that it causes much less anxiety in new crew when there are not required to do challenging tasks that if not done properly could very likely lead to boat damage.

Your statement "...you can't turn down because of that and other reasons, you are out of control..." is also faults because I was fully capable of turning down wind. I just did it by going the long way around because that was the safest choice in the conditions at hand. If I would have had a full crew of experienced sailors I still would have likely done the same. It is physically impossible to get a displacement boat to jibe in 40 knots with a fill main and no head sail. The leeward leg was only about a mile long and after retrieving the spinnaker from the water we had eaten up most of that. In order to jibe I would need to first balance the sail plan. This would involve reefing the main and deploying part of the jibe.

From the moment I started the first of two CJ's till I crossed the finish was probably 2-3 minutes at most. We were sailing on a beam to broad reach at over 7 knots the whole time with very little lost of speed during the CJs. Any other choice would take longer and had much greater risk of damage to boat and crew.

My point is that sometimes when the world is blowing up around you, you must think outside of the box. Like I said, I was the only boat in my group to finish. Papillon was fully under control the whole time and I significantly improved my standings in the series.

I would contend any skipper who doggedly demanded that a boat my jibe on a downwind leg regardless of the conditions at hand is fundamentally out of control by nature. A safe and prudent skipper must always consider all options and not just out-of-hand reject some because he believes them to be too slow or cowardly for his ego. That attitude has caused much harm and caused more than one sailor to give up sailing because they were afraid of the decision making of the skipper.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I would contend any skipper who doggedly demanded that a boat my jibe on a downwind leg regardless of the conditions at hand is fundamentally out of control by nature. A safe and prudent skipper must always consider all options...

You know, the more I read this, the more I am convinced that we all are actually agreeing with each other.

I keep repeating: conditions, conditions, conditions. Kinda like real estate. :dance:

 

[Hayden Watson]

Hmm. Thats a bold statement. have you ever been near something like that boat? We've had very good racers on board that were spooked by the boat for several days. The Pogo's mainsail is larger than your entire boat's sailplan, and that includes your spinnaker. Reefed its close. We reefed because we had sails matched to conditions.

My point in mentioning this is that you questioning my qualification about sailing in breeze. I sail and race on a lot of high performance boats and programs around the world. In all conditions. I have a pretty decent idea about what is fast and what is not and how to be fast in any conditions.

Doing a chicken jibe is absolutely prudent if you think a jibe is too much for you, your crew, your boat based on conditions. But to make broad claims that is it the fastest thing to do because 'someone could lose a mast' is just plain silly.

Yes is is a bold statement but not without merit. While I own and race a slow and heavy displacement boat I often crew on a J90 that has been highly modified to race in a one-design fleet with FT10's. Most are not familiar with the J90 because they only built 5 because they were just too expensive. They are 30 ft with a displacement of 2700lbs and a ballast/displacement ratio of 66% with carbon everything. Originally the upwind SA/D was 48 and the down wind was 89 and a PHRF of 55. The modification was to increase the mast height by 5ft which raised those numbers significantly.

I was on the crew as main sail trimmer in the 2006 Duwamish Head race which is a mid-distance race on Puget Sound in January. That year the wind ranged from 30 to 40 knots for most of the race and we were flying the spinnaker on the (edit)leeward leg doing in excess of 20 knts boat speed most of the way. I can definitively state that a jibe can be done by a full well experienced crew in those conditions. We did three of them. Of course I must also mention that two of them resulted in complete wipeout broaches with the masthead in the water but what the heck, we were having fun. I can also tell you that anyone within a mile of us when we made that one good jibe heard about it because of all the hooting and hollering and cheering we were doing.:dance: And yes, we were first to finish, and first in class. We were abeam a J125 when they tried one of their jibes and saw first hand how very fast a spinnaker can become a cloud of confetti. They didn't have to worry about taking it down because all that was left of it was the head and foot patches connected by the edge binding.

 

[Hayden Watson]

You know, the more I read this, the more I am convinced that we all are actually agreeing with each other.

I keep repeating: conditions, conditions, conditions. Kinda like real estate. :dance:

Absolutly, conditions can over rule conventional wisdom. My main point is that an attidude that your boat is out of control because you can't complete a jibe. There is more than one way to get the wind to the other side of the boat.

 

[Jackdaw]

I cannot speak for your seamanship or boat but Papillion can easily be sailed single handed and I have done so on numerous occasion in storm conditions to 55 knots so your comment "If your boat requires 4 crew to sail at the time" is completely incorrect. I often take first time sailors on a crew for races because I believe that it is the best way to introduce new sailors to the sport of sailing. in doing so I fully understand that I will often need to sail in a less than optimal configuration. remember, Don started this thread with the statement that he recommends CJs for inexperienced sailors because it is safer and I will add that it causes much less anxiety in new crew when there are not required to do challenging tasks that if not done properly could very likely lead to boat damage.

Your statement "...you can't turn down because of that and other reasons, you are out of control..." is also faults because I was fully capable of turning down wind. I just did it by going the long way around because that was the safest choice in the conditions at hand. If I would have had a full crew of experienced sailors I still would have likely done the same. It is physically impossible to get a displacement boat to jibe in 40 knots with a fill main and no head sail. The leeward leg was only about a mile long and after retrieving the spinnaker from the water we had eaten up most of that. In order to jibe I would need to first balance the sail plan. This would involve reefing the main and deploying part of the jibe.

From the moment I started the first of two CJ's till I crossed the finish was probably 2-3 minutes at most. We were sailing on a beam to broad reach at over 7 knots the whole time with very little lost of speed during the CJs. Any other choice would take longer and had much greater risk of damage to boat and crew.

My point is that sometimes when the world is blowing up around you, you must think outside of the box. Like I said, I was the only boat in my group to finish. Papillon was fully under control the whole time and I significantly improved my standings in the series.

I would contend any skipper who doggedly demanded that a boat my jibe on a downwind leg regardless of the conditions at hand is fundamentally out of control by nature. A safe and prudent skipper must always consider all options and not just out-of-hand reject some because he believes them to be too slow or cowardly for his ego. That attitude has caused much harm and caused more than one sailor to give up sailing because they were afraid of the decision making of the skipper.

Wow, that's a lot of words. ;^) Almost made me forget what your original point was, and what my issue was. Oh right. This.

I had a situation in a race a few years ago where the CJ was MUCH FASTER than a jibe. (note that i did not say "controlled" )

That's just wrong, and even more wrong as an broad example.

I agree that if you're not willing or capable to do a jibe, doing a CJ is the only option to turn the boat. But that in no way makes it faster. Which is what you said. You also said you were not in control. Is that still your story?? My original question to you was for you to clarify this, but each time you just add more words that bury the issue. I'm tired of asking, I really don't care anymore.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Wow, that's a lot of words. ;^) Almost made me forget what your original point was, and what my issue was. Oh right. This.



That's just wrong, and even more wrong as an broad example.

I agree that if you're not willing or capable to do a jibe, doing a CJ is the only option to turn the boat. But that in no way makes it faster. Which is what you said. You also said you were not in control. Is that still your story?? My original question to you was for you to clarify this, but each time you just add more words that bury the issue. I'm tired of asking, I really don't care anymore.

Let me say this in a few simple words. I WAS IN FULL CONTROL AT ALL TIMES AND THE BOAT WAS FULLY RESPONSIVE AND UNDER CONTROL AT ALL TIMES.

What I am objecting to is your contention that MY boat was out of control because I did not chose to do a maneuver that YOU believe to be better from the comfort of your armchair. The closest that Papillon came to being out of control was the few seconds when I attempted to put the helm down in prep for a jibe. This caused a sudden increase in heel angle and is what caused my crew to cease to function very well. Before she broached I said, "Never mind, TACKING.", and spun the wheel hard the other way. My crew quickly asked what they should do to which I answered "No need to do anything." A couple of minutes later we got the finish horn and started the motor to make it easier to put in a double reef for sail back to the marina.

The following week both new crew members were back to try again. I can guarantee that if I had continued with the attempt to jibe neither of them would have been back.

 

[Hayden Watson]

BTW I will still stand by my original contention.

Wow, that's a lot of words. ;^) Almost made me forget what your original point was, and what my issue was. Oh right. This.



That's just wrong, and even more wrong as an broad example.

Given the conditions, crew and configuration of the boat at the time, a jibe was IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETE. If one option CAN be done, be it ever so slow, and the other CANNOT, then the options that can be done is the fastest option. As I said several times before, not finishing a race is always slower than any recorded finish by at least one point. in my case it increased my standing a lot because so many in the fleet failed to do so.

 

[Jackdaw]

Let me say this in a few simple words. I WAS IN FULL CONTROL AT ALL TIMES AND THE BOAT WAS FULLY RESPONSIVE AND UNDER CONTROL AT ALL TIMES.

What I am objecting to is your contention that MY boat was out of control because I did not chose to do a maneuver that YOU believe to be better from the comfort of your armchair. The closest that Papillon came to being out of control was the few seconds when I attempted to put the helm down in prep for a jibe. This caused a sudden increase in heel angle and is what caused my crew to cease to function very well. Before she broached I said, "Never mind, TACKING.", and spun the wheel hard the other way. My crew quickly asked what they should do to which I answered "No need to do anything." A couple of minutes later we got the finish horn and started the motor to make it easier to put in a double reef for sail back to the marina.

The following week both new crew members were back to try again. I can guarantee that if I had continued with the attempt to jibe neither of them would have been back.

Seems you are wrapped around that axle on this control part.

Skip that. Simplify. You said this.

I had a situation in a race a few years ago where the CJ was MUCH FASTER than a jibe

That's WRONG. Chicken jibes are NEVER faster. Do you disagree?

 

[Hayden Watson]

Seems you are wrapped around that axle on this control part.

Skip that. Simply. You said this.



That's WRONG. Chicken jibes are NEVER faster. Do you disagree?

Sorry to disagree but I stand by my original statement "I had a situation in a race a few years ago where the CJ was MUCH FASTER than a jibe " in a dynamic world there is no such thing as a simple universal statement that will hold true for all situations and that is what I hear you saying.

Given the situation at the time the CJ resulted in a complete race and an attempted jibe would have resulted in a DNF. My point was that any completed race is faster than a DNF.

In a different situation aboard the J90 in the Duwamish Head race I will agree that the jibes (even with the two wipeouts were much faster than a CJ.

As Stu said so very well, CONDITIONS, CONDITIONS, CONDITIONS. The J90 had a head sail, very experienced crew, lots of sea room and the speed to allow the loads to be significantly reduced due to the difference in apparent wind of a boat doing 20 knts rather than 7 knts in 40 true. In spite of all this, we dropped the spinnaker and sailed with reefed main and jib for the last 1/2 mile due to the risk of overshooting the mark.

The pressure in the sails is a function of the apparent wind speed squared.
(40-20)^2 = 400
(40-7)^2 = 1089
Therefore, at the same true wind speed on two very different boats I had to contend with 2.75 times the pressure on the main. There is just no physical way I could make that happen and to try was to bring on disaster.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

There ya go!

In a different situation aboard the J90 in the Duwamish Head race I will agree that the jibes (even with the two wipeouts were much faster than a CJ.

Now we're talking! Where's Kings Gambit now that we have consensus to his query! (What a great question! - two days of pure entertainment!)

 

[Scott T-Bird]

and we were flying the spinnaker on the windward leg doing in excess of 20 knts boat speed most of the way.

Wow! flying the spinnaker to windward! That's AWESOME!

 

[Kings Gambit]

Now we're talking! Where's Kings Gambit now that we have consensus to his query! (What a great question! - two days of pure entertainment!)

Still around-- great discussion, as always!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Stories

Ah, NOW we get to the real sailing stories.

Gentlemen, KG and JD,

I really appreciate your experiences and sharing them.

Each of us have "good stories" to share, and I'm glad we're getting them from both of you.

Every once in a while, someone asks about "How do I learn how to race? and "What are the tricks of racing?"

Few are willing to share those, since it's easy to understand that those are pretty personal things. One spends a lot of time & effort learning them, hard to describe easily and in a forum environment.

Now, you got 'em.

Really, these are priceless.

A "search" on "race" should be easy to find now, anytime, since I've entered the "keyword" = race.

Some of the best days of my life have been spent sailing w/o/w through the Golden Gate Bridge to Berkeley, in 20+ knots apparent, maybe all of four to eight nm, single handed.

Threw in two jibes most of the time.

BIG grin!!!:dance::dance::dance:

Thanks to both of you for great experiences and sharing them with us.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Wow! flying the spinnaker to windward! That's AWESOME!

The waves were coming at us so fast that it seemed like it was upwind. :Liar:

That was one wild race but I have seldom had so much fun. We would race up the back of a wave and jump off the top and then porpoise into the face of the next trough taking green water a foot deep over the whole boat. It was a really good thing that the boat has an open transom which let the water out as fast as it came in. The boat was so light and powerful that it would pop back up out of the water and stay on a plane off the next crest with hardly any loss in speed. We had the entire crew other than the spinnaker trimmer packed onto the stern quarter to keep it from pitch poling

 

[Jackdaw]

Wow! flying the spinnaker to windward! That's AWESOME!

Don't worry Scotty, unlikely facts will get in the way of a good story.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The waves were coming at us so fast that it seemed like it was upwind. :Liar:

Not to worry! I'm just having fun ... that's what life is all about. I'll blurt out snarky comments from time to time when I've lost my filter between brain and mouth. I can take it in return ... so don't hold back when the opportunity presents ... just pick your moment!

I use 'edit post' all the time to correct my gaffs.

 

[Joe]

Not to worry! I'm just having fun ... that's what life is all about. I use 'edit post' all the time to correct my gaffs.

Well he really meant "Surfing".... but that's okay... some things are just too good to change. I have a much better picture with Hayden's description of the event .

 

[Scotty C-M]

Did a "CJ" last night. Out with just my niece, who is learning how to sail. Just the two of us on board. She had the helm. About 13 knots of wind. It was so easy to tack through about 160* - much easier than going through the evolution to jibe.

A word about racing and going faster. Everything depends. I was on race committee last year when a pack of boats was becalmed near the committee boat trying to finish. The last boat in the pack (a Farr 40) turned away from the finish line. We figured that he was quiting the race. He sailed away for a while, came into a wind line and turned to port (no, he did not do a chicken jibe!) and then headed up, and up, and up … and finished 2nd in the race. He sailed around the hole in the middle of the course. As Stu said, Conditions, Conditions, Conditions.