Chicken Jibe

[Jackdaw]

I think was all are in violent agreement!

A chicken jibe is:

1) Not really a jibe, but a TACK

2) A maneuver that simulates the effect of a jibe by turning a boat not 60 degrees under the wind, but 300 degrees over it.

3) Allows the BOW of the boat to pass through the direction of the wind, and not the stern.

4) Is MUCH slower than a gibe, in terms of distance and speed

5) Is done based on skippers comfort in gibing in the current conditions.

6) Is less needed on faster (planing) boats

7) Is impossible to do with a spinnaker up!


Is that the list??

 

[Stu Jackson]

Great except for maybe #6, I still think conditions & boat govern.

Good summary.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Are we ready to cover carved jibes, duck jibes and laydown jibes? oops ... wrong forum!

http://www.roynbartholdi.com/windsurfing/maneuver-descriptions

 

[Kings Gambit]

4) Is MUCH slower than a jibe, in terms of distance and speed...

I don't know--it depends. If two boats are sailing side by side on a broad reach in high wind, and they both decide to "jibe" i.e, to bring the boom over to make good the rhumb line down wind & spinnakers are not involved consider: The leeward boat bears off to DDW; trims the main sheet to bring the boom amidships, performs a text-book controlled jibe, then resumes a broad reach on the opposite tack. At the same time, the weather boat immediately rounds up hard, tacks, and then quickly falls off to a broad reach (which is a faster POS than DDW) on the opposite tack. Are the two still the same relative VMG, or has the leeward boat increased her lead? IMHO, the "Chicken Jiber" may complete the maneuver more quickly b/c there are fewer steps (can turn up sharply; < 5 sec). On the other hand, the controlled jiber will make way (VMG) toward the mark while making ready for the jibe. Is it a draw?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It seems to me that Oracle tried a similar maneuver (I know, it wasn't exactly the same thing) rounding the leeward mark ahead and losing the race by a mile. It was early in the series when they didn't yet realize that they had much faster boat speed and would go on to win a string of races. They basically did a 180 degree turn at the mark instead of a 90 degree turn, so tacking thru the wind unnecessarily was a total deal killer and they were ridiculed for even thinking of it.

I can't see how one boat coming to a complete stop with respect to VMG before resuming is ever going to be faster than another boat which continues on at reaching speeds.

So the short answer is no f'ing way is a chicken jibing boat faster. In your scenario, the boat to weather possibly has the lead and forfeits the lead miserably to the leeward boat.

 

[Davidasailor26]

4) Is MUCH slower than a jibe, in terms of distance and speed... I don't know--it depends. If two boats are sailing side by side on a broad reach in high wind, and they both decide to "jibe" i.e, to bring the boom over to make good the rhumb line down wind & spinnakers are not involved consider: The leeward boat bears off to DDW; trims the main sheet to bring the boom amidships, performs a text-book controlled jibe, then resumes a broad reach on the opposite tack. At the same time, the weather boat immediately rounds up hard, tacks, and then quickly falls off to a broad reach (which is a faster POS than DDW) on the opposite tack. Are the two still the same relative VMG, or has the leeward boat increased her lead? IMHO, the "Chicken Jiber" may complete the maneuver more quickly b/c there are fewer steps (can turn up sharply; < 5 sec). On the other hand, the controlled jiber will make way toward the mark while making ready for the jibe. Is it a draw?

Not a draw at all I don't think. Leeward definitely wins big over windward CJ. Although leeward may slow slightly going ddw, they will still have a lot of momentum going through the turn, and all of that speed is pure VMG while they point straight at the mark. Windward doing the CJ will either take a long time going with negative VMG wile they turn, or will almost completely scrub their speed trying to do the tighter turn you suggest.

It might be interesting to consider two boats overlapped and within a boat length of each other, if leeward is carrying a jib, and windward is carrying a spinnaker. In this case, as far as I can remember from the racing rules of sailing, leeward could CJ, forcing windward into a luff. That's about the only way I could see the CJ having any speed or distance advantage.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I suspect you're correct. But the interesting (perhaps?) part is that leeward jibes and becomes windward on the new tack; ahead of the other boat but probably somewhat higher on the course. Eventually, the boat ahead will have to come a little further back down to the RL. She may give back some of that VGM acquired at the jibe point?

 

[Stu Jackson]

KG, wouldn't the answer depend on which boat had a better layline to the mark? And also which one didn't have to jibe again to turn it? One of them is gonna get there first, but assuming one of them gets to the mark (what is it? -- two boat lengths ahead to clear?), then the one who doesn't have to jibe at the mark may, I say, may have an advantage in the overall scheme of things.

What do you think?

Great question, thanks.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Not a draw at all I don't think. Leeward definitely wins big over windward CJ.

I had a situation in a race a few years ago where the CJ was MUCH FASTER than a jibe. (note that i did not say "controlled" )

I was participating in a club race with three aboard, myself and a H/W couple of 1st time sailors. The wind was forecast for 10-15 and I usually single hand so no worries. On the final beat, we were hit by a squall with wind of 40kts. the NOOBs were in the fetal position and unable to help. I was able to roll up the jib to gain some control but under main only was unable to jibe. Any attempt to put the helm down just resulted in a broach. This resulted in rapidly sailing out side of the lay line to the finish and the possibility of a DNF was turning to a probability. With main only the CJ was easy and fast and I was able to "tack" down wind and make it through the finish gate.

BTW, This experience produced one of my all-time favorite "boat quotes". After we arrived back at the dock, one of the other racers asked the wife how she liked her first sail. She thought for a second and said "Well, I didn't cry and I didn't pee my pants, so it was a really good day!":dance::dance:

They were both back the following week to try again and a month later crewed with me in the Round Whidbey Race which is a 65 mile Category II overnight race. The CJ must not have been too scary.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Great story, too, Hayden. ITWMB, I agree, the cj made sense 'cuz you were essentially alone, and didn't have to do anything with the mainsheet, if you did it fast. Also depended on other conditions.

Thanks for a great description. Great day, hope you had a great Whidbey, too.

 

[VF84Sluggo]

Interesting thread, and timely for me...just this past week I've been reading about preventers and boom brakes.

Wondering if a gizmo like the Dutchman Boom Brake would be a good safety addition in guarding against an accidental gybe, and making a controlled gybe more 'controlled'? And would having this make you more likely, conditions permitting, to gybe normally vs. choosing a chicken gybe?

 

[Hayden Watson]

Great story, too, Hayden. ITWMB, I agree, the cj made sense 'cuz you were essentially alone, and didn't have to do anything with the mainsheet, if you did it fast. Also depended on other conditions.

Thanks for a great description. Great day, hope you had a great Whidbey, too.

It was a matter of doing a couple of quick CJ's and making the finish or continue sailing out of the race area on my current tack until I ran into something. There was just no way that boat was going to jibe in 40 kts with main only.

That year was really good. I finished 2nd in class and 3rd overall with a very rookie crew.:dance: Not bad for a "5ksb" as they call me on Sailing Anarchy.

I love my old cruiser.

 

[rockingham]

Whaddataknow, I've been doing chicken jibes right along. Least I don't have to learn something new.

 

[Jackdaw]

4) Is MUCH slower than a jibe, in terms of distance and speed...

I don't know--it depends. If two boats are sailing side by side on a broad reach in high wind, and they both decide to "jibe" i.e, to bring the boom over to make good the rhumb line down wind & spinnakers are not involved consider: The leeward boat bears off to DDW; trims the main sheet to bring the boom amidships, performs a text-book controlled jibe, then resumes a broad reach on the opposite tack. At the same time, the weather boat immediately rounds up hard, tacks, and then quickly falls off to a broad reach (which is a faster POS than DDW) on the opposite tack. Are the two still the same relative VMG, or has the leeward boat increased her lead? IMHO, the "Chicken Jiber" may complete the maneuver more quickly b/c there are fewer steps (can turn up sharply; < 5 sec). On the other hand, the controlled jiber will make way (VMG) toward the mark while making ready for the jibe. Is it a draw?

Never, ever, not even close.

If you need to jibe, it means your mark is closer to DDW then you are sailing. if not, why would you jibe??

As such any sailing you deeper is faster to the mark, and sailing you do higher is slower.

Jibiing is always sailing deeper. Towards the mark.

When you chicken jibe, you turn and sail DIRECTLY INTO THE WIND. AWAY from the mark. That is slower beyond words. You lose 20-30 boat lengths at least.

 

[Kings Gambit]

KG, wouldn't the answer depend on which boat had a better layline to the mark? And also which one didn't have to jibe again to turn it? One of them is gonna get there first, but assuming one of them gets to the mark (what is it? -- two boat lengths ahead to clear?), then the one who doesn't have to jibe at the mark may, I say, may have an advantage in the overall scheme of things.

What do you think?

Great question, thanks.

In my "little diagram" I have both boats jibing again to take the mark on starboard side, then coming up to a beat as they are rounding. So both ended up on the high side of the rhumb line not long after the first jibe, and are now reaching as low as possible [w/o collapsing the headsail] on a broad reach. The CJ boat is behind, but between the other boat and the leeward mark. However, I don't think she will be able to do another CJ and stay in this race! According to JD, she's already in the tank!

 

[Daveinet]

Coming from a small cat, jibing is a way of life. My Hobie does not have a jib, so many times I would really do a "chicken tack" - sailing up wind and still jibe a 270 to keep the boat speed up. We would call those Power Turns, because you stayed under power the all the way through the turn. A Hobie does not turn into the wind very well and can loose speed in light winds. In a normal tack, it is not totally uncommon to find the boat backing up. You have to watch which way the foam is moving in the water, so you know when to reverse the rudder. So choosing a 270 degree power turn is kind of a normal thing.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jibe vs Chicken.

Boats jibe when their destination/mark is downwind of them, and for tactical reasons (layline or obstruction) they want to be on the other board. A jibing boat is always sailing toward the mark, and while is slows slightly when it turns DDW it is always making positive VMG (Velocity Made Good) towards the mark.

A chicken jibe boat turns away from the mark and heads directly UPWIND. This results in the boat slowing, and generating NEGATIVE VMG towards the mark. In effect, you are sailing backwards.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I was able to roll up the jib to gain some control but under main only was unable to jibe. Any attempt to put the helm down just resulted in a broach. This resulted in rapidly sailing out side of the lay line to the finish and the possibility of a DNF was turning to a probability. With main only the CJ was easy and fast and I was able to "tack" down wind and make it through the finish gate.

Nice story but I don't buy it. If you are on a broad reach and in danger of broaching, the way to gain control is to turn downwind to decrease apparent wind, de-power the sail, and stabilize the boat. Therefore, if you are in control during a broad reach, you are definitely not going to broach as you turn downwind. You may broach if you over turn in the jibe, though, and I understand that concern.

I understand that you were afraid of an uncontrolled jibe in this situation, therefore the need to turn upwind, but then call it the way it was. An executed jibe is still far faster than a tack. Besides, without the jib, I suspect that a tack is not that "easy and fast". It's more likely a struggle to avoid a deep heel, and loss of rudder control as your apparent wind increases on the upwind slog, and without the jib, less power to get thru the wind, and more likely to go in irons.

Aside from that, depending upon where you were on the course, there should be no need to complete more than 1 jibe (if you had to get the sail on the other side to make the finish). With the wind strengthening, you have no reason not to sail deeper downwind to make the finish without having to complete a second jibe.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

In my "little diagram" I have both boats jibing again

2 chicken jibes vs 2 jibes? Make that 50 boat lengths behind.

 

[Jackdaw]

Nice story but I don't buy it. If you are on a broad reach and in danger of broaching, the way to gain control is to turn the helm downwind to decrease apparent wind, de-power the sail, and stabilize the boat. Therefore, if you are in control during a broad reach, you are definitely not going to broach as you turn the helm downwind. You may broach if you over turn in the jibe, though, and I understand that concern.

I understand that you were afraid of an uncontrolled jibe in this situation, therefore the need to turn upwind, but then call it the way it was. An executed jibe is still far faster than a tack. Besides, without the jib, I suspect that a tack is not that "easy and fast". It's more likely a struggle to avoid a deep heel, and loss of rudder control as your apparent wind increases on the upwind slog, and without the jib, less power to get thru the wind, and more likely to go in irons.

Aside from that, depending upon where you were on the course, there should be no need to complete more than 1 jibe (if you had to get the sail on the other side to make the finish). With the wind strengthening, you have no reason not to sail deeper downwind to make the finish without having to complete a second jibe.

I agree. If you cannot make your boat turn DOWN in a breeze, you are doing something wrong. It should always be easier than turning up and presenting the full beam of the boat to the strong wind, which will be a violent nasty affair.

And it's never faster. Look at my diagram. You lose huge time and distance to a boat the jibes. Any boat you beat doing that is just not sailing well at all.