Chicken Jibe

Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Don't worry Scotty, unlikely facts will get in the way of a good story.
How about a good story with a good video. This video was shot by one of the boats in the class behind us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvXBzhH5q48

At 1:06 you can see the P1 fleet I was in in the distance. The large sail on the right is the J125 which blew up her spinnaker when they jibed to make the turn at Alki point. the J90 I was on is just to the left if that.

At 2:36 there is a shot of a boat behind Farrari blowing out a blue spinnaker.

The downwind video ends at 4:15 as Farrari starts to spinout.

They say they were getting wind of 26 to 35 but I am not sure if that is apparent or true. On our boat, the race started with about 15 knots and built throughout the leeward leg and near Alki point, we were seeing reading of 40 knots true on the anemometer with boat speed ranging for 15 to 20+. I am not sure what our max speed was because during the fastest sections we had way more important things on our minds than watching the speedo. :dance:
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Well he really meant "Surfing".... but that's okay... some things are just too good to change.
Joe, unless I have the terminology wrong I did mean Planing not Surfing. As it was explained to me, surfing is short bursts of speed in excess of hull speed as the boat is pushed by the waves. Planing is sustained speeds in excess of hull speed as the boat climbs out of displacement mode and out runs its bow wave.

This boat will plane in most conditions with wind speeds as low as 10 knts true. Remember, the dry displacement of this boat is only about 2700lbs with 1800 of that in the bulb. We have over 600sf upwind and about double that down. We were running up and over the waves.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
A word about racing and going faster. Everything depends. I was on race committee last year when a pack of boats was becalmed near the committee boat trying to finish. The last boat in the pack (a Farr 40) turned away from the finish line. We figured that he was quiting the race. He sailed away for a while, came into a wind line and turned to port (no, he did not do a chicken jibe!) and then headed up, and up, and up … and finished 2nd in the race. He sailed around the hole in the middle of the course. As Stu said, Conditions, Conditions, Conditions.
I did the same thing on a Round Whidbey race a few years ago. Due to a spinnaker halyard shackle malfunction and the need to send a crew up the mast to retrieve it I was behind the fleet as they approached Partridge Point. about 10 boats stacked up at the buoy and got stuck. I saw a tiny bit of breeze about a mile out and with the last of my momentum tacked towards Vancouver which is about 160º off course. it took me about and hour to reach it but then I was able to come around and sail on down the Straight on the other side of the channel. The last I saw of that group, they were still trying to round the buoy as I disappeared over the horizon. None of them finished and I got second in class. Like you said, sometimes the wrong way is the RIGHT way.
 
May 20, 2004
151
C&C 26 Ghost Lake, Alberta
I still think it's pretty obvious that regular jibe is faster than a chicken jibe!

sam :)
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Joe, unless I have the terminology wrong I did mean Planing not Surfing. As it was explained to me, surfing is short bursts of speed in excess of hull speed as the boat is pushed by the waves. Planing is sustained speeds in excess of hull speed as the boat climbs out of displacement mode and out runs its bow wave.

This boat will plane in most conditions with wind speeds as low as 10 knts true. Remember, the dry displacement of this boat is only about 2700lbs with 1800 of that in the bulb. We have over 600sf upwind and about double that down. We were running up and over the waves.
If you're speeding down the face of a wave and jamming your bow into the trough or back of the next wave... gravity, wave power and wind are moving the boat... not just wind. When you plane, it's just the wind powering you out of the bow wave... it can be done on any point of sail.

Generally speaking... when you are riding waves downwind, yes, even out running them, you are "surfing"... but hey.... call it what you want... but please, I'm the last guy you want to lecture on "hull speed" and "displacement mode"

When I sailed my Nacra in the ocean I always looked for waves to surf and give me extra power. In a flat bay you had to rely on wind and hull design to get the boat moving. In the ocean you can use the power of the wave... like a turbo. If your are nose diving your vessel ... then you are not planing... other wise you wouldn't be nose diving (surfers call it "pearling").. cat sailers call the result of nose diving a "pitch pole"... but anyway.. if the boat starts nose diving you must move the ballast aft, just as you would when planing... but you must also turn the boat so it goes ACROSS the face of the wave ... this can be a very daunting maneuver and requires some skill to avoid broaching...... but interestingly, the boat will pick up speed dramatically .... to the extreme.. so.. the strategy is to surf diagonally down the face of the wave, then straight up the back to the crest.. then diagonally down the next face.... like an "S" pattern.... (BTW this pattern is also a good strategy when sailng upwind in choppy conditions or steep faced waves.. so you don't lose your apparent wind or slam the hull down over the crest.)

Next time you're out in a bad ass speedy sport boat.. try the "S" pattern when sailing in waves... you'll be stoked.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I'm the last guy you want to lecture on "hull speed" and "displacement mode"
LOL Joe... You know, I HAVE seen a Catalina break hullspeed before......

 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
LOL Joe... You know, I HAVE seen a Catalina break hullspeed before......

Me too:

I close my eyes only for a moment, and the moment's gone..... All we are is Dust In The Wind... ooh ooh ooh
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Surfing is planing downwind.
Wouldn't surfing be riding the face of a wave just like on a board. In the case of high performance sport boats, they are not limited to displacement speeds and often get up on a plane. On the J90 we were traveling much faster than the waves so that is planning rather than surfing.

if you are talking about Farrari, the boat in the video, I would agree that they are surfing which is why we were several miles ahead of them! :dance::dance:
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
I still think it's pretty obvious that regular jibe is faster than a chicken jibe!

sam :)
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually - from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff."
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually - from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly... timey-wimey... stuff."
Hayden,

non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint
Can you let this go????

EVERYONE here is concedes that under certain conditions of crew ability, weather, and boat soundness that a CK can be the more PRUDENT maneuver to perform to turn onto the opposite board when sailing downwind.

But at the same time EVERYONE (else) here knows that it is SLOWER. End of discussion. Really. Long winded stories of races long sailed, math involving the sail area and wind pressure on your main, or worse-case scenarios of rig failure simply don't change that, they just explain why you did the CK. But they no now way make it faster.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Hayden,

(Quote)...non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint...

Can you let this go????
I am sorry that the quote was beyond your comprehension. It was a light hearted direct response to Sam Salter by quoting one of the Tenth Doctor's most famous quotes.

Based on his TARDIS avatar (Time and Relative Dimension in Space - that's the funny looking blue box thingy for the uninitiated) Sam is obviously a Doctor Who fan.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Hayden,


Can you let this go????
I do find it interesting That I must let it go just because you contend that everyone agrees with you when Stu, KG and several others have stated that conditions often dictate that unconventional tactics improve a boats standing in racing. :naughty:

That is my main point and sorry, I have and will continue to take runners and sail my own course. sometimes they help sometimes they hurt but that is racing.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Oops. I posted before I saw the other posts on the Dr Who reference. Thought the same exact thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw

Taken from the best Dr who episode ever written.
"Don't Blink" :eek: That was the first episode of the modern Doctor Who series that my wife ever saw and she almost wasn't willing to see another. fortunately she has over come that issue.

Doctor Who has sure changed from my younger days.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I am sorry that the quote was beyond your comprehension.
Now you are just being an ass. I had thought that while having a difference of opinion, you might have been a decent guy. I was wrong about that too. I truly hope our paths never cross.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I do find it interesting That I must let it go just because you contend that everyone agrees with you when Stu, KG and several others have stated that conditions often dictate that unconventional tactics improve a boats standing in racing. :naughty:
You REALLY don't get it. NO ONE agrees with you that its FASTER. Safer maybe if you can't hack the jibe, but NEVER faster.

Please, if ANYONE here agrees that its faster, PLEASE say so.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Now you are just being an ass. I had thought that while having a difference of opinion, you might have been a decent guy. I was wrong about that too. I truly hope our paths never cross.
Jackdaw, I am sorry you took my comment that way. My intent was not to affront.

from Reading Rockets.
Comprehension:
Comprehension is the understanding and interpretation of what is read. To be able to accurately understand written material.


The word does not impart any pejorative. I was just noting that you did not understand or accurately interoperate my bit of humor directed to a fellow Dr Who fan in posting a well known quote.

Justsomeguy's quote about lunchtime was beyond my comprehension as well so I googled it and learned something about Douglas Adams and will try to find a copy of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I make every effort to never insult or denigrate anyone on these forums. They have been greatly helpful to me for over a decade and I appreciate all contributors. I do wish that you would offer me the same. I have found your repeated and belligerent insistence that my vessel was out of control or I was just too fearful because I did not choose to make the same decision you would have made is anything but civil discourse.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,819
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
Justsomeguy
"Very deep. You should send that in to the Reader's Digest. They've got a page for people like you." ;)

Thanks for a couple of new quotes! :dance::dance: