Chicken Jibe

[Kings Gambit]

JD--thanks for the informative visual. However, I don't agree that it would take 5x longer to complete the CJ than the true jibe. At worst for the CJ the actual time elapsed would be about the same, but where the true-jibe boat would be making way toward the mark during the manuever, but the CJ boat would not be for at least half of that time.

The conditions of high wind and seas that would prompt the CJ would, in my opinion, slow completion of the true jibe due to the time (several seconds) required to sheet the boom in before jibing. Also, I don't think the CJ boat would have such a wide turning circle (which adds to the time). I can spin the Bavaria through a CJ in maybe two boat lengths--say--100 ft at most, and complete that whole manuever in less than 10 seconds. At 7.5 kt, the true-jibe boat would make 126 ft toward the mark in 10 seconds [if I calculated this correctly], assuming that it did not overreach the layline for the jibe point while trying to set the boom, etc., and experience no other problems jibing the boom in high wind and seas. No doubt that the CJ boat would be trailing initially, but probably would not overreach the layline; so might get some of that time back down course, is my only point.

Of course, in mild or moderate conditions the true jibe would always win the day!

ft/sec = [(7.5 n.mi./hr)(6076 ft/n.mi.)]/[(60 min/hr)(60 sec/min)] = 12.6

 

[Jackdaw]

JD--thanks for the informative visual. However, I don't agree that it would take 5x longer to complete the CJ than the true jibe. At worst for the CJ the actual time elapsed would be about the same, but where the true-jibe boat would be making way toward the mark during the manuever, but the CJ boat would not be for at least half of that time.

The conditions of high wind and seas that would prompt the CJ would, in my opinion, slow completion of the true jibe due to the time (several seconds) required to sheet the boom in before jibing. Also, I don't think the CJ boat would have such a wide turning circle (which adds to the time). I can spin the Bavaria through a CJ in maybe two boat lengths--say--100 ft at most, and complete that whole manuever in less than 10 seconds. At 7.5 kt, the true-jibe boat would make 120 ft toward the mark in 10 seconds, assuming that it did not overreach the layline for the jibe point while trying to set the boom, etc., and experience no other problems jibing the boom in high wind and seas. No doubt that the CJ boat would be trailing initially, but probably would not overreach the layline; so might get some of that time back down course, is my only point.

Of course, in mild or moderate conditions the true jibe would always win the day!

I have to say I disagree with most of this.

Your comments about laylines and potential problems with a jibe just cloud the real issue.

A jibing boat is ALWAYS pointing towards its mark. It slows down its speed and VMG only slightly when jibing, but is always making good progress.

A CJ boat turns AWAY from its mark, and sails backwards. In racing, we say; 'That's slow'.

You simply cannot turn on a dime doing this. You have to maintain speed, and constantly re-trim your sails. If you do not, you will get caught in irons as you have scrubbed off all your speed turning fast and are now facing into 20+ knots of breeze with no boatspeed.

Distance and time in racing (sailing!) can NEVER be made up. When you lose time you have lost it forever. It's time you have wasted that the other guy did not. There is no getting it back.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I agree that no one expecting to win would ever pull a CJ in a race unless the conditions were threatening, and maybe not even then. So, no dispute there. However, most people don't race with "crack" crews to pull off risky manuevers in big conditions. I've seen and read about many cases of damaged rigs from racing in high winds, including masts coming down and boats pitch-poling, etc. A CJ is just another tactic that someone MIGHT use to continue racing if circumstances favored it.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Nice story but I don't buy it. If you are on a broad reach and in danger of broaching, the way to gain control is to turn the helm downwind to decrease apparent wind, de-power the sail, and stabilize the boat. Therefore, if you are in control during a broad reach, you are definitely not going to broach as you turn the helm downwind. You may broach if you over turn in the jibe, though, and I understand that concern.

Sorry to disagree with you Scott-T-Bird and Jackdaw but I think that you both missed the part about 40 knot squall single-handed without the use of autopilot (per race rules). The clear-air squall came from the near shore without warning and went from 15 kts to 40 kts as the fleet was rounding the final windward mark. Most of the boats had set or were in the process of setting spinnakers.
In the post-race report the Race Committee titled the article "knock-downs, breakdowns and emergency spinnaker take-downs". Less than half the fleet was able to finish the race. I had just set my spinnaker when the squall came off shore and it broke the masthead shackle for my spin halyard block and dumped the whole thing in the drink. I cut the halyard, dumped the sheet and the husband had to drive while I hauled my nearly brand new star spinnaker back on board by the guy. We were doing 7 kts boat speed while shrimping with the spinny.
In 40 kts of wind with full main, and no head sail with no hope of reefing the only control you have is dump the main sheet. This will only reduce power if you are on a beam reach nearly at the flogging point. When you are reaching at 7kts with the main fully eased in 40 kts there is no way you can turn down because the boat is already at hull speed and severely over-powered.
Jackdaw, you diagram is correct except for the rate of turn. in my situation the tack is not a slow process. You just throw the helm hard over and spin the boat to a broad reach the other way with no need to touch any lines. Just make damn sure the main sheet doesn't hang up anywhere because you need it fully eased on the opposite board. It only took about 3 seconds.
This was not a case of getting down to the final mark. It was all about not blowing past it. it really wasn't racing because it was survival conditions.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I have to say I disagree with most of this.

Your comments about laylines and potential problems with a jibe just cloud the real issue.

A jibing boat is ALWAYS pointing towards its mark. It slows down its speed and VMG only slightly when jibing, but is always making good progress.

A CJ boat turns AWAY from its mark, and sails backwards. In racing, we say; 'That's slow'.

You simply cannot turn on a dime doing this. You have to maintain speed, and constantly re-trim your sails. If you do not, you will get caught in irons as you have scrubbed off all your speed turning fast and are now facing into 20+ knots of breeze with no boatspeed.

Distance and time in racing (sailing!) can NEVER be made up. When you lose time you have lost it forever. It's time you have wasted that the other guy did not. There is no getting it back.

Jackdaw, I think you are missing the point that both KG and I are making. this maneuver is only beneficial when in high winds that make the very real danger of jibing too risky. You absolutely can am must turn on a dime with no need to trim anything. If you spin the boat you do not need drive because you coast through the tack. you say the jibing is always toward the mark. Not so in my case because I was being blown past the mark because everything was too fast. In my case the CJ was the only way to get back over to the finish line and not DNF. No matter how long it takes to CJ it will give you way better points than a DNF which did happen to most of the fleet!

 

[Jackdaw]

This was not a case of getting down to the final mark. It was all about not blowing past it. it really wasn't racing because it was survival conditions.

I've got no issue with you doing what you need to do to keep your crew and boat safe. Good on you for getting through that on one piece!

But this thread is basically about jibing vs chicken jibing. And implied in that is the notion of 'choice'. Due to conditions and lack of crew performance, you were out of control. You had no choice but to tack around. And it worked for you in that situation. But let's not confuse that for being fast, or ideal.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw, I think you are missing the point that both KG and I are making. this maneuver is only beneficial when in high winds that make the very real danger of jibing too risky. You absolutely can am must turn on a dime with no need to trim anything. If you spin the boat you do not need drive because you coast through the tack. you say the jibing is always toward the mark. Not so in my case because I was being blown past the mark because everything was too fast. In my case the CJ was the only way to get back over to the finish line and not DNF. No matter how long it takes to CJ it will give you way better points than a DNF which did happen to most of the fleet!

Like KG did, you are introducing points that confuse the issue. If you have sailed too far, that is NOT a problem of a jibe. It is a problem with your sailing. I understand these things happen, but this topic was about what was best and when. Somewhere several people (you and KG?) made the general statement that a CJ was 'fast' and sometimes appropriate. Maybe in places where the skipper feels a jibes is beyond his and his crew's ability, or because they have sailed to far in the wrong direction, but it is NEVER faster in a general sense.

PS - I'd like to see a video of you doing a button-hook chicken jibe in 20+ knots. I gotta believe that looks nasty.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I've got no issue with you doing what you need to do to keep your crew and boat safe. Good on you for getting through that on one piece!

But this thread is basically about jibing vs chicken jibing. And implied in that is the notion of 'choice'. Due to conditions and lack of crew performance, you were out of control. You had no choice but to tack around. And it worked for you in that situation. But let's not confuse that for being fast, or ideal.

I fully agree with you on keeping crew and boat safe but I will not concede to the statement that I was out of control except briefly when attempting to jibe and the boat broached. To attempt to jibe in the conditions at the time was impossible and the CJ was easy, fully under control and provided for complete safety of the crew and boat. By definition that is "under control".

After crossing the finish line I had one crew motor directly into the wind and I pulled in a second reef and we sailed back to the marina because that was much safer than motoring in 40 kts.

Being under control is having the ability to make the correct choice for the conditions at the time and to successfully implement that choice. In this case my the basic options were to finish the race or abandon. I chose to finish and the only way that the boat could be turned through the wind and get back to the finish line was to go the long way around. Most of the fleet chose to abandon. Most were under control but I was one of the few that were rewarded with low points and improved standing in the series. I would say that any time I move up in the standing I was "faster" than my competition.
Racing is not about time it is about points. Wouldn't you agree.

 

[Jackdaw]

I fully agree with you on keeping crew and boat safe but I will not concede to the statement that I was out of control except briefly when attempting to jibe and the boat broached. To attempt to jibe in the conditions at the time was impossible and the CJ was easy, fully under control and provided for complete safety of the crew and boat. By definition that is "under control".

After crossing the finish line I had one crew motor directly into the wind and I pulled in a second reef and we sailed back to the marina because that was much safer than motoring in 40 kts.

Being under control is having the ability to make the correct choice for the conditions at the time and to successfully implement that choice. In this case my the basic options were to finish the race or abandon. I chose to finish and the only way that the boat could be turned through the wind and get back to the finish line was to go the long way around. Most of the fleet chose to abandon. Most were under control but I was one of the few that were rewarded with low points and improved standing in the series. I would say that any time I move up in the standing I was "faster" than my competition.
Racing is not about time it is about points. Wouldn't you agree.

If you're sailing a 30 foot boat in 40 knots of breeze, you (out of a crew of 4?) are the only functional person on the boat, and you have to turn up because you cannot make the desired turn down, sorry but in my book you are out of control. If I had been sailing in that race I would have wanted to be nowhere near you.

Like I said in my other post, keeping the boat and crew safe and finishing are great goals and a good result. But they make a crappy example for this discussion.

I absolutely agree that points matter the most in racing. DFL>DNF>DNC!!!

 

[Hayden Watson]

PS - I'd like to see a video of you doing a button-hook chicken jibe in 20+ knots. I gotta believe that looks nasty.

I have never done one in 20 knots and it might be a bit harder than what I did because I had several times more power at 40.

I will tell you that my turns were the only ones completed on the course that day that were clean. If you turn quickly enough the main doesn't flog, it just smoothly flips to the other side of the boat. do remember KG and I have both said that this was without any head sail. The race committee told me afterward that the carnage they were seeing in the fleet was scary but my CJ's were so quick and easy that they started a discussion on the issue at the next club meeting.

I really hate it when someone gives away my advantage!

 

[Hayden Watson]

If you're sailing a 30 foot boat in 40 knots or breeze, you (out of a crew of 4?) are the only functional person on the boat, and you have to turn up because you cannot make the desired turn down, sorry but in my book you are out of control. If I had been sailing in that race I would have wanted to be nowhere near you.

Like I said in my other post, keeping the boat and crew safe and finishing are great goals and a good result. But they make a crappy example for this discussion.

I absolutely agree that points matter the most in racing. DFL>DNF>DNC!!!

No one when sailing in 40 knots. it was a beautiful blue sky day with 15 knots forecast. where the 40 came from is beyond my ability to understand and the weather services ability to forecast!

I remained calm throughout the ordeal and both of my first time crew were back the next week so I do not see how I was out of control. I did everything that I decided to do. others did not make the same decision as I did and suffered damage because they could not see the more prudent path. Like the Great Hudson Hornet said in Cars, "Sometimes you have to go right to turn left."

How often have you sailed in 30 plus conditions. My family has spent many happy days sailing in those conditions and relish the opportunity.:dance::dance:

 

[Stu Jackson]

I, too, am wondering about the seeming confusion about the OP.

Hayden, you're right about safety, but somehow I think you're "mixing metaphors" at best.

"I won the race because everybody else carnaged-out, so, QED, a cj is fastest."

I simply fail to follow the logic.

And, again, good on you for surviving. Well done.

 

[Don Guillette]

Jackdaw: What a great graphic. It was worth a 1000 words. Hopefully, you'd be willing to use it on future topics to make a point.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

So, faster by default ....

Jackdaw, I think you are missing the point that both KG and I are making. this maneuver is only beneficial when in high winds that make the very real danger of jibing too risky. You absolutely can am must turn on a dime with no need to trim anything. If you spin the boat you do not need drive because you coast through the tack. you say the jibing is always toward the mark. Not so in my case because I was being blown past the mark because everything was too fast. In my case the CJ was the only way to get back over to the finish line and not DNF. No matter how long it takes to CJ it will give you way better points than a DNF which did happen to most of the fleet!

What you are describing is that you were faster by default because no boats were prepared for the conditions. I suppose that all boats still in the race were chicken jibing? Or did some boats actually accomplish a jibe and stay in the race, albeit slower?

I would guess that a boat with reduced sail, able to maneuver a jibe could have been much faster than you, particularly since you describe sailing well across the wind with a fully eased main, not able to accomplish nearly as much downwind heading that you might have accomplished had you been less over-powered.

So, again, it is hardly an example where tacking the boat is faster. Faster compared to what? Broaching? Ok, but not faster than jibing.

 

[Jackdaw]

How often have you sailed in 30 plus conditions.

OK, so you don't know me very well. But I'm glad that that worked out for you. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Its just that most of the time, extreme one-off cases don't make the best examples for general questions.

Oh - Here's my partner and I double-handing a Pogo Open 40 in a race in Greece. Breeze in this squall was mid 30s. In about a mile we rounded a mark and popped the asym. So I know the drill.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw: What a great graphic. It was worth a 1000 words. Hopefully, you'd be willing to use it on future topics to make a point.

Don, thanks. Whipping up the graphic is easy; I just need a good case to make! ;^)

 

[Hayden Watson]

I, too, am wondering about the seeming confusion about the OP.

Hayden, you're right about safety, but somehow I think you're "mixing metaphors" at best.

"I won the race because everybody else carnaged-out, so, QED, a cj is fastest."

I simply fail to follow the logic.

And, again, good on you for surviving. Well done.

Not to be TOO contrary, but in racing or just plain sailing, doing a CJ be it ever so slow is still a faster way to get the wind on the other side of the boat than a crash-n-burn or demasting!

In the case I described, I either chicken jibed, started the motor and dropped sails or kept sailing on port until I ran aground. the CJ had a start and end point and as far as racing was concerned, the other two options did not allow the race to be completed so they had no endpoint. A jibe was impossible given the conditions and the amount of sea room I had.

Logic dictates that if only one option allows for successful completion of the task at hand then it is in fact the fastest option available.

 

[Hayden Watson]

What you are describing is that you were faster by default because no boats were prepared for the conditions. I suppose that all boats still in the race were chicken jibing? Or did some boats actually accomplish a jibe and stay in the race, albeit slower?

I would guess that a boat with reduced sail, able to maneuver a jibe could have been much faster than you, particularly since you describe sailing well across the wind with a fully eased main, not able to accomplish nearly as much downwind heading that you might have accomplished had you been less over-powered.

So, again, it is hardly an example where tacking the boat is faster. Faster compared to what? Broaching? Ok, but not faster than jibing.

The fleet consisted of two clumps. The go-fast plaining sport boats were well ahead and near the finish and the slower displacement boats behind. The fleet was fairly well matched based on close corrected times.

I was in the latter group and we all got hit without warning. The wind came off a bluff and the first indication I had of anything was my spin halyard block letting go. I was the only boat in this group to finish. The boats ahead either finished before the squall line hit them or were able to depower by dropping sail. I saw at least one boat ahead finish under main only but do not know if he was able to jibe or even attempted it. This boat could plain so he might have been able to power through a jibe by sheeting the main tight. I didn't have crew capable of doing this.

I have always said that this was done because I was in very high wind and esencially single handed. When I am out cruising in these conditions I would typically roll up the jib and CJ because it is much safer when sailing single handed in a big blow.

To safely do a controlled jibe you much first sheet the main in hard so that you minimize the travel of the boom when it comes through the eye of the wind. if i are single handing I cannot get that done because the auto pilot cannot cope with running in a blow.

Jackdaw. Nice photo and it looks like great conditions and I would have a grin ear to ear in those conditions. I also notice that you have a reef in the main and a small jib. I had a tall rig main fully hoised and no head sail in forty knots as measured by the committee boat.

According to the Harkin mainsheet load calculator, my main in 30knts generates a sheet load of 3760lbs. At 40knts this load increases to 6684lbs. With no jib to balance the forces, it was impossible to get the boat to jibe. When you start to turn down the wind hits the main like a big old barn door and slams you back the other way.

In Don's original post, he stated "In strong winds or gusty conditions my suggestions to beginners is to use the "chicken jibe" because it's a safer method." I concur completely with this statement and will add that when sailing short handed in storm conditions it is also safer for the experienced skipper.

 

[Daveinet]

...According to the Harkin mainsheet load calculator, my main in 30knts generates a sheet load of 3760lbs. At 40knts this load increases to 6684lbs. With no jib to balance the forces, it was impossible to get the boat to jibe. When you start to turn down the wind hits the main like a big old barn door and slams you back the other way...

Maybe, maybe not. Not sure what assumptions Harkin is making, but the whole point of the thread is that because the boat is moving down wind, apparent wind is much less, therefore reduced load.

 

[Kings Gambit]

If you're sailing a 30 foot boat in 40 knots of breeze, you (out of a crew of 4?) are the only functional person on the boat, and you have to turn up because you cannot make the desired turn down, sorry but in my book you are out of control. If I had been sailing in that race I would have wanted to be nowhere near you.

"Out of control" in my book is some hapless skipper broaching to windward with the chute up, followed by an uncontrolled jibe resulting in dismasting. Or, some other fool with his spinnaker flying from the mast head like a flag, sheet(s) to the wind, dragging the boat down the course is out of control. Or a skipper whose boat pirouettes in a strong gust going to weather, then jibes (uncontrolled) and comes shooting back at me is out of control. But a skipper finishing a race by "chicken jibing" down the course after being surprised by a 40-kt squall that snapped the halyard shackle and put the chute in the water from which it was retrieved is NOT out of control, IMHO. If a boat can tack under main sail alone it should also be able to make progress to windward, if necessary, to avoid collision, or whatever.