But then why would you be buying parts for a new boat? This strategy makes no sense.
O'day 39 project boat
- Thread starter Panta Rei
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Good point. Buy from Harken when ever possible. They just built a new manufacturing plant / headquarters just west of Milwaukee. Great time to make a statement/ commitment!!!!
security
My only security for the boat has been to lock the ladder to the stands. It was a bit of a running joke that to break in you had to bring your own ladder. Finally got a lock on it. Now you need to bring your own ladder AND climb through the hatch.
I've also been working on a soft spot just aft of the anchor locker. I've noticed most 39 have the same spot. I now know why. All through bolted hardware at the bow can be accessed from the anchor/chain locker. Very handy but I did not realize that the same core extends aft of the locker over the v-birth. For some reason I (and others ) expected a break. I say others because none of the hardware was properly bedded. The fittings were never water tight. I assumed it had no core or that is was bedded so any leak would fall harmlessly into the locker. This same problem caused the water stains on v-birth walls. Something I see on nearly all 39's
We I've got 3 days of sun and low dew points . I'm giving it one last chance to dry out. I'm about 90 % there. I'll then use 1/2 inch plywood to replace the core and bed everything properly.
My only security for the boat has been to lock the ladder to the stands. It was a bit of a running joke that to break in you had to bring your own ladder. Finally got a lock on it. Now you need to bring your own ladder AND climb through the hatch.
I've also been working on a soft spot just aft of the anchor locker. I've noticed most 39 have the same spot. I now know why. All through bolted hardware at the bow can be accessed from the anchor/chain locker. Very handy but I did not realize that the same core extends aft of the locker over the v-birth. For some reason I (and others ) expected a break. I say others because none of the hardware was properly bedded. The fittings were never water tight. I assumed it had no core or that is was bedded so any leak would fall harmlessly into the locker. This same problem caused the water stains on v-birth walls. Something I see on nearly all 39's
We I've got 3 days of sun and low dew points . I'm giving it one last chance to dry out. I'm about 90 % there. I'll then use 1/2 inch plywood to replace the core and bed everything properly.
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What year is your boat? O'Day went through several ownership changes before going finally belly up in the late 80's. New owners probably "cut costs" to make a profit versus making a quality product. Bangor Punta owned them in the mid 80's then I know PEarson bought them. So whatever dream of George O'Day probably lost some vibrancy once it was a new owner.
Mine says Bangor Punta under licence from Jeanneau . I don't think it was a short cut, It's just that I like others thought the deck was solid around the locker not needing proper bedding. Leaks just dropping into the drained locker. Not realizing that the core over the V-birth was being soaked . One more day of hot weather and this will be behind me.
exhaust fan
I bonded the section that I had opened up just aft of the chain locker. Used 1/2" plywood but made saw cuts part way through in a few places to get the flexibility I needed.
Now I should be able to bounce the anchor off the deck. That is it for soft spots.
Port Quarter berth is complete. Starboard quarter berth will likely serve as a garage this year. It will then be set-up as a kids room. Aft head needs a few items hung like a toilet paper cover.
I installed a Vetus electric exaust fan in the forward head. I placed a UFO style cover on it. This will cause trouble when get water over the bow as it is not close-able. I have a few years to come up with something to cover it. The water will not hurt the head, just the 12 volt computer fan motor.
I was planning on installing the screen that came with it but the air flow dropped like a rock when I put it in place. I'll live without it.
As for screens, What should I be doing to get this boat ready for the great lakes? We hope to be sailing through them for the next several years. Don't have a cue as to screening requirements. My wife is from Ashland Wi on Lake Superior. She says we we need to be ready for lake flies. Any help would be most appreciated.
I was happy to see the core in great shape when I made the cutout for the fan.
Boat is dry as a bone. As you can see from my fingers I'm using enough Life Caulk to keep it that way.
I bonded the section that I had opened up just aft of the chain locker. Used 1/2" plywood but made saw cuts part way through in a few places to get the flexibility I needed.
Now I should be able to bounce the anchor off the deck. That is it for soft spots.
Port Quarter berth is complete. Starboard quarter berth will likely serve as a garage this year. It will then be set-up as a kids room. Aft head needs a few items hung like a toilet paper cover.
I installed a Vetus electric exaust fan in the forward head. I placed a UFO style cover on it. This will cause trouble when get water over the bow as it is not close-able. I have a few years to come up with something to cover it. The water will not hurt the head, just the 12 volt computer fan motor.
I was planning on installing the screen that came with it but the air flow dropped like a rock when I put it in place. I'll live without it.
As for screens, What should I be doing to get this boat ready for the great lakes? We hope to be sailing through them for the next several years. Don't have a cue as to screening requirements. My wife is from Ashland Wi on Lake Superior. She says we we need to be ready for lake flies. Any help would be most appreciated.
I was happy to see the core in great shape when I made the cutout for the fan.
Boat is dry as a bone. As you can see from my fingers I'm using enough Life Caulk to keep it that way.
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Stripping white vinyl off life lines. Bondo below water line
Doing some R&D that should pay off for everyone. Both are a bit controversial so I'm interested in hearing other viewpoints.
I'm not a fan of the white vinyl coating on the life lines. Seems it would only hide any problems. Makes the boat look old.
I like the new look of bare stainless. I tried several methods of removing the coating. It's very tough. Finally found a method that takes some time but is relativity easy. Paint Stripper. More precisely methylene chloride. It's what makes paint stripper work. Check the label. It will be on there, it must be, the stuff is very nasty but very effective. Read the label, it can kill you a few different ways.
Place the life line in a metal bucket and add a gallon of stripper. let it sit for a few days. The vinyl can then be slit using a standard ripping tool electricians use to remove the insulation from cables. It's a bit of work but doable and much better than throwing out the old cable.
Next project. Even more controversial, bondo to fair out the pits in the iron keel. $18.00 for a gallon of Bondo at Menard's (lowe's , home depot). $150 for a gallon of 3M marine filler. 3m owns the Bondo brand. I would not be surprised that they are the same product. (not that I researched it) I really don't care. Should the bondo pop off, I'll simply replace it with the expensive stuff.(lesson learned) Anyway, it will be good info for others thinking of doing the same.
Doing some R&D that should pay off for everyone. Both are a bit controversial so I'm interested in hearing other viewpoints.
I'm not a fan of the white vinyl coating on the life lines. Seems it would only hide any problems. Makes the boat look old.
I like the new look of bare stainless. I tried several methods of removing the coating. It's very tough. Finally found a method that takes some time but is relativity easy. Paint Stripper. More precisely methylene chloride. It's what makes paint stripper work. Check the label. It will be on there, it must be, the stuff is very nasty but very effective. Read the label, it can kill you a few different ways.
Place the life line in a metal bucket and add a gallon of stripper. let it sit for a few days. The vinyl can then be slit using a standard ripping tool electricians use to remove the insulation from cables. It's a bit of work but doable and much better than throwing out the old cable.
Next project. Even more controversial, bondo to fair out the pits in the iron keel. $18.00 for a gallon of Bondo at Menard's (lowe's , home depot). $150 for a gallon of 3M marine filler. 3m owns the Bondo brand. I would not be surprised that they are the same product. (not that I researched it) I really don't care. Should the bondo pop off, I'll simply replace it with the expensive stuff.(lesson learned) Anyway, it will be good info for others thinking of doing the same.
Dear Panta Rei,
A few issues with your plan.
I have heard that Bondo absorbs water? I'm no expert so just relaying what I've seen on other posts on this site.
Why is your keel cast iron? My keel is lead and they are likely similar ages (mine was built in '85 and commissioned in '86).
I had trouble with paint adhesion on the keel when I first bought it, so here is the process I used and haven't had any trouble in over 12 years since. I stripped the keel to bare lead using a belt sander and other tools of the trade. Since lead oxidizes immediately I did one side at a time, you have to be quick with the next step. Mix some WEST system epoxy and coat the entire keel with it. Then do the same thing to the other side. Let it cure and then before it fully cures put on a second coat. The epoxy seals the lead against exposure to oxygen so it doesn't oxydize. Not much will stick to lead oxide. An example is Aluminum oxide a common ingredient in grinding wheels and sand paper. Try painting a grinding wheel and see how good it sticks. Next mix up some barrier coat, this is not to stop water intrusion since the epoxy will do that, it is because barrier coat is supposed to be a great base for bottom paint adhesion. I also applied that before the epoxy is fully cured to get a bond between the two. Then add another coat or two of barrier coat. Just to make sure you have good coverage. Now you can rough it up a bit by light sanding and bottom paint. I did this with my keel, took a few days but it worked great. To fair the keel I would add the fairing right after sealing it with the epoxy coats. I would use WEST epoxy with a thickening agent so it bonds well to the epoxy already there and will not absorb water. Then sand it smooth and add the barrier coat.
This method was described in a WEST System article I read many years ago so I tried it, glad I did. I'm sure the bondo will work for a little while, maybe a season or so, if you go that route. Since a keel is 100% wet all the time except when its' not, you want something waterproof.
A few issues with your plan.
I have heard that Bondo absorbs water? I'm no expert so just relaying what I've seen on other posts on this site.
Why is your keel cast iron? My keel is lead and they are likely similar ages (mine was built in '85 and commissioned in '86).
I had trouble with paint adhesion on the keel when I first bought it, so here is the process I used and haven't had any trouble in over 12 years since. I stripped the keel to bare lead using a belt sander and other tools of the trade. Since lead oxidizes immediately I did one side at a time, you have to be quick with the next step. Mix some WEST system epoxy and coat the entire keel with it. Then do the same thing to the other side. Let it cure and then before it fully cures put on a second coat. The epoxy seals the lead against exposure to oxygen so it doesn't oxydize. Not much will stick to lead oxide. An example is Aluminum oxide a common ingredient in grinding wheels and sand paper. Try painting a grinding wheel and see how good it sticks. Next mix up some barrier coat, this is not to stop water intrusion since the epoxy will do that, it is because barrier coat is supposed to be a great base for bottom paint adhesion. I also applied that before the epoxy is fully cured to get a bond between the two. Then add another coat or two of barrier coat. Just to make sure you have good coverage. Now you can rough it up a bit by light sanding and bottom paint. I did this with my keel, took a few days but it worked great. To fair the keel I would add the fairing right after sealing it with the epoxy coats. I would use WEST epoxy with a thickening agent so it bonds well to the epoxy already there and will not absorb water. Then sand it smooth and add the barrier coat.
This method was described in a WEST System article I read many years ago so I tried it, glad I did. I'm sure the bondo will work for a little while, maybe a season or so, if you go that route. Since a keel is 100% wet all the time except when its' not, you want something waterproof.
Hey Jibes,
It's hard to go wrong following the West Systems methods. You may go broke but no one at the marina will laugh at you.
I find that most products sold in the Marine market are a bit better suited for such purpose than the ones intended for general use. There are many exceptions to this and by and large you are paying for and expensive multi level distribution system and a very expensive retail outlet. Most of the time I'm happy to pay the higher price since no one at walmart will help me select the proper anchor for my boat and cruising grounds. But when it comes to the paint field I find the stories hard to swallow.
What you have heard:
Bondo absorbs water. Yes of course it does. ALL paint and composites absorb water. Even the West System.
Bondo is likely polyester based product with talc as a filler. Talc is not the culprit causing water absorption. Read below. Talc absorbs the least amount of water. Vinylesters are better than polyesters to retard (not eliminate water absorption.) Are they worth 10 times more?? I say no.
http://kreysler.com/information/spe...development_of_low_moisture_absorbing_smc.pdf
Bondo CAN NOT be used on wooden boats. I sure agree with that but we will see in a year or two how it does on a primed cast iron keel.
I do not feel I have anything to loose. It took me and hour to apply and fair the filler. I could care less if it pops out next week.
As for the iron keel: Jeanneau designed the boat. Later, it might have been O'day who changed the design to a lead keel with a deep bilge. I believe they also made a centerboard /shoal draft boat at that time. I have not seen one of them but I have a drawing of it in my owners manual. I have a fixed shoal draft. I have not seen a lead version of this.
I blasted the bottom with black slag from Mernards at $6.00 per bag after the soda @ many times that did not work. The black slag took it down to the iron. I primed it the same day. The Black slag took everything off the hull except for the Coal tar epoxy that someone applied when it was new. The boat has never had a blister despite being in the Caribbean most of it's life. The west system can not match this record of nearly 30 years without a blister.
So what should I put on for bottom paint? I'll have it in the water all next summer but from then on it will see water only a few weeks a year.
It's hard to go wrong following the West Systems methods. You may go broke but no one at the marina will laugh at you.
I find that most products sold in the Marine market are a bit better suited for such purpose than the ones intended for general use. There are many exceptions to this and by and large you are paying for and expensive multi level distribution system and a very expensive retail outlet. Most of the time I'm happy to pay the higher price since no one at walmart will help me select the proper anchor for my boat and cruising grounds. But when it comes to the paint field I find the stories hard to swallow.
What you have heard:
Bondo absorbs water. Yes of course it does. ALL paint and composites absorb water. Even the West System.
Bondo is likely polyester based product with talc as a filler. Talc is not the culprit causing water absorption. Read below. Talc absorbs the least amount of water. Vinylesters are better than polyesters to retard (not eliminate water absorption.) Are they worth 10 times more?? I say no.
http://kreysler.com/information/spe...development_of_low_moisture_absorbing_smc.pdf
Bondo CAN NOT be used on wooden boats. I sure agree with that but we will see in a year or two how it does on a primed cast iron keel.
I do not feel I have anything to loose. It took me and hour to apply and fair the filler. I could care less if it pops out next week.
As for the iron keel: Jeanneau designed the boat. Later, it might have been O'day who changed the design to a lead keel with a deep bilge. I believe they also made a centerboard /shoal draft boat at that time. I have not seen one of them but I have a drawing of it in my owners manual. I have a fixed shoal draft. I have not seen a lead version of this.
I blasted the bottom with black slag from Mernards at $6.00 per bag after the soda @ many times that did not work. The black slag took it down to the iron. I primed it the same day. The Black slag took everything off the hull except for the Coal tar epoxy that someone applied when it was new. The boat has never had a blister despite being in the Caribbean most of it's life. The west system can not match this record of nearly 30 years without a blister.
So what should I put on for bottom paint? I'll have it in the water all next summer but from then on it will see water only a few weeks a year.
Todd I'm glad you are sharing what might be a goofup. Kinda like the decorative teak plywood I'm still smarting over. It is easy to present an everything going perfect but that can be discouraging for someone bringing one of these boats to new life. The things that go wrong are what tests the metal of any restorer and the overcoming of the imperfect result is what gets them nice again. Anyone reading be prepared for the occasional aw shnitz. Learn and move on. Thanks again for keeping it real Todd.
Actually I'm off for a couple of days. Getting the mast boxed and ready and cleaning, oh my God, the cleaning. First one on YOT with dirty shoes get's it.
Hey Panta, I didn't realize you had already applied the bondo. Why not just give it a coat of epoxy or barrier coat over the top of it to seal it up a bit. I just quote WEST because I am used to it. I also use MAS but any epoxy will work. The 35 is not a Jeanneau design that I know of, the 39 and 40 I think were licensed. I was just surprised that they used iron that late in the game since most had switched to lead at that point. Maybe because they were then owned by Bangor Punta and they were cutting costs, iron being cheap.
Where my boat is located the barnacles gather around the boat yards and laugh at the people putting on bottom paint. This is barnacle heaven (also oysters and sponges, and sea anemones,.....). I used Ultra the last time and have had good luck with it, currently on the third year but I'm due for a haulout. I used Micron CSC before that and wasn't too impressed. If you are in fresh water you should be OK with about anything.
Where my boat is located the barnacles gather around the boat yards and laugh at the people putting on bottom paint. This is barnacle heaven (also oysters and sponges, and sea anemones,.....). I used Ultra the last time and have had good luck with it, currently on the third year but I'm due for a haulout. I used Micron CSC before that and wasn't too impressed. If you are in fresh water you should be OK with about anything.
Joe, that's the nicest way I have ever been told that I screwed up. Thanks
But with a little more background you may agree with me.
This is a nearly 30 year old IRON keel. We blasted it this summer. All I was doing with the bondo was filling the craters. The largest was about the size of my hand. About an inch or two deep. There are spots where I can grind and get good metal and then break into black corrosion of some kind. Grinding and filling will be an annual event. I don't want to put expensive (and hard to work with) material on this keel just to have it rot around it.
Again. It will be a good experiment. I agree Jibes. A coat or two of epoxy should slow things down a bit.
bondo on the keel
The grey spray paint is a zinc rich primer. I used it to cover any iron I exposed when sanding. The keel was given two coats of zinc rich primer prior to bondo.
I'll give the entire keel a coating of epoxy prior to the final bottom paint.
The grey spray paint is a zinc rich primer. I used it to cover any iron I exposed when sanding. The keel was given two coats of zinc rich primer prior to bondo.
I'll give the entire keel a coating of epoxy prior to the final bottom paint.
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Todd,
I remember the marina I was at in Ct. was an O'Day dealer in the 80's and they had a 302 or 322 in the yard long after O'Day went out of business that had a wing keel. A huge chunk of one wing was coming apart, seemed like it had a crack and rusted and the whole chunk was coming off, like maybe a quarter of the wing. I'm not sure what happened to that boat, someone probably got a real bargain, i don't know if it was on consignment or if the dealer bought the stock and was stuck with it.
There is a keel guy up in Canada that will make a mold from your keel and pour a new one if you ever need it. But this example shows another case where O'Day in the later years was using cast iron for keel material.
You might want to throw a coat of barrier coat over the epoxy to give a good base for painting. Also Mainesail had a thread several years back about "hot coating." By that meaning put the first coat of paint on before the barrier coat is fully cured to try to get some chemical bonding taking place versus just adhesion. Not being a chemist I'm not sure what in the paint will cross link with the resin but it sounded like a good idea. Plastics continue to cure well after they are hard enough to work with so you have a decent amount of time. But the other issue is bottom paints should go on just before launching say within the same week. So timiing is important.
You might want to research this hot coating idea a bit to see if it makes any sense.
I remember the marina I was at in Ct. was an O'Day dealer in the 80's and they had a 302 or 322 in the yard long after O'Day went out of business that had a wing keel. A huge chunk of one wing was coming apart, seemed like it had a crack and rusted and the whole chunk was coming off, like maybe a quarter of the wing. I'm not sure what happened to that boat, someone probably got a real bargain, i don't know if it was on consignment or if the dealer bought the stock and was stuck with it.
There is a keel guy up in Canada that will make a mold from your keel and pour a new one if you ever need it. But this example shows another case where O'Day in the later years was using cast iron for keel material.
You might want to throw a coat of barrier coat over the epoxy to give a good base for painting. Also Mainesail had a thread several years back about "hot coating." By that meaning put the first coat of paint on before the barrier coat is fully cured to try to get some chemical bonding taking place versus just adhesion. Not being a chemist I'm not sure what in the paint will cross link with the resin but it sounded like a good idea. Plastics continue to cure well after they are hard enough to work with so you have a decent amount of time. But the other issue is bottom paints should go on just before launching say within the same week. So timiing is important.
You might want to research this hot coating idea a bit to see if it makes any sense.
rusty keel
Jibes,
I think hot coating is a powder coating process that you heat the powder as it leaves the gun and it is then deposited on the cool part. Looks very promising. (check out Eastwood auto body equipment)
Lets see how this Zinch rich primer holds up in the great lakes.
This is what it looked like when I purchased the boat. The cracks are cracks in the fairing material . We think three different materials were used a three different times.
Jibes,
I think hot coating is a powder coating process that you heat the powder as it leaves the gun and it is then deposited on the cool part. Looks very promising. (check out Eastwood auto body equipment)
Lets see how this Zinch rich primer holds up in the great lakes.
This is what it looked like when I purchased the boat. The cracks are cracks in the fairing material . We think three different materials were used a three different times.
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Maybe my terminology isn't right but I am referring to applying subsequent coats before the initial coat is fully cured so you are getting chemical bonding by cross linking of the coats and not just adhesion on the surface. Many bottom paints are epoxy based so there is a potential to get the material to actually bond to the epoxy so you won't have it peeling off. That's what I meant by "hot coating" it just means the base coat isn't fully cured. I didn't make up the term, I have heard it discussed on this site regarding applying bottom paints to barrier coat, and even applying the multiple coats of barrier coat.
There are many kinds of spray coatings you could use on bare iron, plasma spray comes to mind, where you spray a hard wear resistant material on a substrate part.
How would you feel about encapsulating your keel? If you built up some layers of glass on the whole keel and the joint you wouldn't have to worry about rust, the joint won't leak and you'll add some strength to hold the keel on the boat? This would be at the expense of some loss of performance by a wider chord on the keel but I doubt it would matter much if your not racing. I saw one guy a few years ago that added glass just to the joint, no reason you couldn't add some layers to the whole keel.
There are many kinds of spray coatings you could use on bare iron, plasma spray comes to mind, where you spray a hard wear resistant material on a substrate part.
How would you feel about encapsulating your keel? If you built up some layers of glass on the whole keel and the joint you wouldn't have to worry about rust, the joint won't leak and you'll add some strength to hold the keel on the boat? This would be at the expense of some loss of performance by a wider chord on the keel but I doubt it would matter much if your not racing. I saw one guy a few years ago that added glass just to the joint, no reason you couldn't add some layers to the whole keel.
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