Ideal trailerable sailboat - theoretical approach

[Jackdaw]

This brings up another question, how much does a particular size boat need to weigh to be considered safe off shore? Actually its not so much the weight, as the position of the CG vs the CB. If we can get the CG down deep, and the CB up, our righting moment will be real good. Then we just need to get the strength into the hull. Someone said carbon will shatter, so what about a composite hull, fiberglass over carbon fiber? Lead swing keel with a heavy bulb section?

Another thought, which the TES 24 inspired. All these boats have protruding cabins from what would otherwise be a more or less flat deck. Why not raise the gunwales/freeboard, and keep the top flat? Like on the TES or Dana 24 as examples, just raise the sides of the hull to the same height as the top, and move the hatches out to the sides of the hull? Make a lot more room inside, and be a heck of a lot easier walking/laying around up on the deck.

Depend on what you mean by 'safe'. Like I said, the ISO spec (and other seaworthiness specs) is based on a boat's ability to resist capsize. Large waves capsize boats. The smaller the boat, the smaller the definition of a 'large wave'. So as a fundamental rule, longer boats resist that better than small ones. Now you can improve the CZ curve on small boats, but they still will go over in the big enough wave. They will normally pop back over, but the damage is done. Rig gone, and the cabin in utter chaos.

Longer and faster boats are generally considered more seaworthy.

Bosman is correct. Once a boat heels hast 90 degrees, the cabintop adds reserve buoyancy and further resists heel. Once the boat has managed to pass the AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) the boat will move towards total capsize, but the cabintops curve and buoyancy help roll the boat back over. So typically, boats better here will have small (and low) areas BELOW ZERO on the CZ curve.

Look at a Tartan 10, a 33 foot raceboat from the late 70s. Flush deck. Decent initial stability, poor ultimate stability.

 

[Bosman]

A few pages ago I posted renderings of upcoming Maxus 22 from Northman Yachts. The mould is ready and very first deck has been made. The boat will have its premiere at the Wind and Water Fair in Warsaw, Poland on Feb 28 this year. They have two weeks to finish the boat...that is very tight schedule in my opinion. I am surprised how quickly project went from renderings to mould production.... I suppose without use of CNC mill this would not be possible.

 

[dlandersson]

Apparently available soon.

https://www.facebook.com/TattooYachts

 

[Delezynski]

My question is, why would you want one??

If you want a blue water boat, then why would you trailer it? You could sail it anywhere. And the requirements that make it trailer-able make it much less usable for extended offshore use.

We lived aboard FULL time for years. Then we cruised FULL time (5 years) down the Pacific coast, into the Sea of Cortez, the Mexico mainland. Now we trailed it back to the US for a re-fit. Next month, we will trailer back to the SF Bay area. Next year to the Bahamas or ????

We LOVE our Nor'Sea 27! We just did a quick video of ramp launching one at Lake Havasu :dance:
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_fu44SFNVE&feature=share&list=UUyGH1-xOhCotpV_zhSzQq7g )

Why be trapped by NOT being able to trailer your "blue water" boat?

During our cruising we met a LOT of people who wanted there boat in other places, but just could not get there. How do you think Dock Wise makes so much? In some cases, they charge MORE than the boat is worth!

Greg

 

[Jackdaw]

We lived aboard FULL time for years. Then we cruised FULL time (5 years) down the Pacific coast, into the Sea of Cortez, the Mexico mainland. Now we trailed it back to the US for a re-fit. Next month, we will trailer back to the SF Bay area. Next year to the Bahamas or ????

We LOVE our Nor'Sea 27! We just did a quick video of ramp launching one at Lake Havasu :dance:
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_fu44SFNVE&feature=share&list=UUyGH1-xOhCotpV_zhSzQq7g )

Why be trapped by NOT being able to trailer your "blue water" boat?

During our cruising we met a LOT of people who wanted there boat in other places, but just could not get there. How do you think Dock Wise makes so much? In some cases, they charge MORE than the boat is worth!

Greg

That's awesome stuff!

 

[Delezynski]

That's awesome stuff!

You might also want to read the Zacko's web pages at; http://www.enezacko.com/

The have a sister ship Nor'Sea 27. The have sailed across the Atlantic many times, through the Panama Canal, then the South Pacific, to New New Caledonia. They are now having that "trailer boat" shipped from New Cal to LeHavre, France. They will go down the river, through Paris France, then on to Sevilla Spain. And the cost to ship that small "trailer boat" is US $7,000.00 NOT tens of thousands and they do NOT have to transit the Red Sea area.

I might also add, that when you are not sailing a "trailer boat" boat, it's a LOT less $$ to keep and maintain! We found a LOT of people leave the boat from time to time during cruising, but still must pay those pesky docking fees for the large boats. And by the way, for over 20 years of cruising our 27, there has ALWAYS been room at the marina, even at the last min. on the 4th of July!

Lower cost = bigger cruising kitty = longer cruising window.

Greg
Ed & Ellen below.....

 

[Jackdaw]

A few pages ago I posted renderings of upcoming Maxus 22 from Northman Yachts. The mould is ready and very first deck has been made. The boat will have its premiere at the Wind and Water Fair in Warsaw, Poland on Feb 28 this year. They have two weeks to finish the boat...that is very tight schedule in my opinion. I am surprised how quickly project went from renderings to mould production.... I suppose without use of CNC mill this would not be possible.

That was very fast. It's the advantage of 3d modeling and milling. But then I assume that they skipped making a full size mockup to walk around and sit in. In almost every case, that uncovers a CAD design error that needs to be corrected in the final product. Hope that is not the case here!

 

[Bosman]

Maxus 22 - continuation

These photos were just released before the premiere in 2 days. More to follow. I do agree with Jack that the boat might suffer from the initial teething problems, but since this is not the builder's first boat, I am certain they had everything or at least almost everything, thought out.

Keep in mind this is the prototype boat and some items may change on the production models. Do note integrated A-frame system for lowering/raising of the mast and the crutch. Also, two sets of cars hint an option for 130%-150% jib.

 

[Jackdaw]

Maxus 22 - continuation

These photos were just released before the premiere in 2 days. More to follow. I do agree with Jack that the boat might suffer from the initial teething problems, but since this is not the builder's first boat, I am certain they had everything or at least almost everything, thought out.

Keep in mind this is the prototype boat and some items may change on the production models. Do note integrated A-frame system for lowering/raising of the mast and the crutch. Also, two sets of cars hint an option for 130%-150% jib.

That's very cool. Hope the debut does well. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Bosman]

I have not posted anything in thread for some time now. Some updates on Maxus 22. There is now a new version build specifically for demanding customers in the french market. It is called Maxus 22 QR. The boat is meant to be a fun coastal racer with weighted daggerboard, twin rudder system and uprated hardware and sails.

YouTube video, in French, so not all of you (myself included) will understand :bang: Next to the boat is Maxus 24 Twin Keel and Maxus 28.

 

[Jackdaw]

I have not posted anything in thread for some time now. Some updates on Maxus 22. There is now a new version build specifically for demanding customers in the french market. It is called Maxus 22 QR. The boat is meant to be a fun coastal racer with weighted daggerboard, twin rudder system and uprated hardware and sails.

That's an interesting little boat. The changes from the first edition will be well received, in particular in France, where the sailing public has a firm expectation of what they want in a 21 footer. The lifting KEEL and dual rudders will help keep it planted in a blow, and the upgrades to the deck hardware are noticeable (spinlock, facnor, etc). 1/2 meter taller rig as well. And finally a traveller. Gone is the dual headsail tracks and the goofy inner bracket to hold the lower stay at the height on the mast base. Sheeting the non-overlapping headsail is in tight, were God intended jibs to be sheeted. The split base of the shrouds (caps on the gunwale, lowers close to cabintop) is clever and allows easier passage forward. Hopefully there is an option for a real toilet.

Most French do not trailer small boats, they just like lifting keels to deal with the big tides.

It will compete with the venerable First 20, and maybe more so with the Elan 210. Cost 33000 euro.

 

[Bosman]

Looks like the competition does not sleep. Another boat to add the list is the Viko S22. Designed by Sergio Lupoli Yacht Design (Italy, build in Poland) as a performance-oriented weekend sailor with excellent overnight capabilities, it boasts with acceleration, fast sailing, lots of fun and good looks. Boat is available in three configurations:
- lifting centreboard
- fin keel with bulb
- lifting daggerboard with bulb

Some specs:
Hull lenght: 6.95m (22.8 ft)
LOA: 8.10m (26.6 ft)
Beam: 2.50m (8.2 ft)
Weight: 1200 kg/ 1300 kg (lifting keel / centreboard) (2640 / 2860 lbs)
Propulsion: outboard
Price: from 14 990 € (USD $20,500)

Does she look good? All depends who to ask. Personally, I do like her lines

 

[Jackdaw]

Bosman,

Nice find. You must have a connection or a very active interest in these things!

Its amazing that the Polish home market can support all these new little boats. To sell them cheaply, that have to amortise the R&D cost over many units. You go out of business selling a few of them.

On the export front, I assume that are trying to overcome the bias against Polish boat in the big sailing countries, where they are looked down upon as cheap lake sailors. Poland is one of the very few countries in Europe were a significant percentage of boats sail on lakes.

There is an extraordinary amount of joinery in that boat. Thats nice. Labor must be very cheap in Poland.

I think it looks OK as well. Nice to see them moving to true lifting keels.

What does a 22 footer need TWO SINKS??? That's just crazy. Storage space looks non-existent.

 

[shemandr]

Cockpit seems small. I could give up some of that cabin for more cockpit. Fractional rig - I presume? I do like the enclosed head but the sink isn't necessary. Draft?

 

[Jackdaw]

Cockpit seems small. I could give up some of that cabin for more cockpit. Fractional rig - I presume? I do like the enclosed head but the sink isn't necessary. Draft?

For SURE fractional. All new sporty boats these days are; 7/8ths or 9/10s fractional, shrouds on the hull/deck joint, non-overlapping headsail, and a big roachy main.

Europeans use this size boat differently than Americans do... most will truly weekend on it while most Americans will day sail it. The cockpit/cabin ratios reflect that.

The enclosed head is a great idea. Guys typically care less but ladies (who make most of the buying decisions) want a private place. Good thinking.

 

[rufus1138]

just out of curiosity, i dont have time to comb the whole post but op did anyone ever mention or have you ever checked out the s-2 7.5 or the mirage 236? all of these ive come across are pretty sterile and have been modded into trailer racers that are all out (managed to win against some very surprised competition btw) but seem to fit your specs, the mirage is way more sporty, the s-2 has more weekend capability, both can be had on the cheap now-a-days.

 

[Bosman]

Jackdaw,

I have a very active interest in the sub 30ft segment, that is certain, as I plan to change boats in the next little while. Connection - not so much. I simply try to look at the reports and articles from various boat fairs that take place in the EU - wheter on the internet or from printed media (I subscribe to some yachting magazines from Europe).

The Polish market is nowhere near supporting the builders. It is said that roughly 95+ % of production is exported within the EU, middle east or North America - that is what drives the sales and design of new models. Not too many people know that significant number of popular powerboats sold in the US are not even manufactured in the country (Brunswick Marine group), but rather assembled. The most successful brands from Poland that sell worldwide under their own name are, just to mention a few, are:

Delphia Yachts (http://en.delphiayachts.eu/) sailing vessels from 24 to 47ft, plus motor yachts

Sunreef Yacht (http://www.sunreef-yachts.com/) very much luxury in full splender

Galeon Yacht (http://www.galeonyachts.us/) luxury market segment

Other players, smaller, usually seem to target clients within the EU in Germany, France, Italy and Spain. Interestingly, there is a growing interest in these boats in Asian Markets - South Korea being a good example.

I agree that lake boats with coastal capabilities is indeed a market niche in the country and possibly in the world. While all the major players in the boat building industry focus on large vessels available for smaller percentile of population, Poland seems to take lead in the production of boats for people that do not have need for large vessels. I have not seen similar variety of boats in this segment from any other country.

Labour is less expensive, but not cheap. Automation of production is important with wide use of CNC machines, allowing builders to minimize labour required to fabricate woodwork as well as to minimize wasted materials. Utilization of CAD software during the boat design process allows to export files used to cut all components of the boat - this is how, for example, Maxus 22 was able to get from drawings to first production boat in about 2-3 months (mentioned above). I do not believe this would be possible with manual labour.

shemandr - draught of the boat is as follows:
Lifting Keel: 36cm / 1.5m (14in / 4.92ft)
Centreboard: 28cm / 1.4m (11in / 4.6ft)
No info on the fin keel with bulb.

 

[Jackdaw]

Bosman,

That's all great information. Thanks. I agree its an under-served market, and I hope that all do well. I've never run across one of the boats in the USA, but from the sound of it they are in Canada. Maybe someday soon.

 

[Bosman]

At this time, in Canada, there are only (so far) two brands represented and sold in Canada:
- Delphia
- TES Yacht Canada
Shipping cost is a factor, but as of recently, there is a light at the end of a tunnel with free trade deal signed between the EU and Canada. From what I understand, current duty of 11.5% (or is it 9.5% - can't remember) imposed on pleasure crafts will be gone and null. Is it going to be reflected in the price? Who knows. I have a feeling the difference might end up in the broker's pockets or, perhaps (better), more equipment in standard.
For the US market, problem is with details. In Canada, Transport Canada accepts vessels as long as they are build either to the CE or ABYC standards (which are, sometimes, contradicting to each other from what I understand). How is it in US? I feel that smaller scale builders will opt out from re-making their boats... Similarly, Macgregor powersailers sold in EU were build (or equipped?) differently than the North American models to meet the CE directives.
Time will tell...for now, I have to wait patiently until the next sailing season.....

 

[Jackdaw]

For the US market, problem is with details. In Canada, Transport Canada accepts vessels as long as they are build either to the CE or ABYC standards (which are, sometimes, contradicting to each other from what I understand). How is it in US? I feel that smaller scale builders will opt out from re-making their boats... Similarly, Macgregor powersailers sold in EU were build (or equipped?) differently than the North American models to meet the CE directives.

I'm pretty sure that there are NO built-to standards for boats sold in the USA. Like NMEA, the ABYC is a non-government organization and being a member (and building to the spec) is voluntary. You are right, many US builders in the past did NOT export due to being unwilling to built and test to the CE spec. That's happily starting to change; I note that Catalina now gets CE approval for most of its larger boats.