USA Vs NZL

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Aug 20, 2010
1,399
Oday 27 Oak Orchard
Hey isn't Buffalo a suburb of Ontario? The Bills keep threatening to move there, we should be so lucky. Anyway, it's interesting the different impressions people have of Australia and New Zealand. I brought up the conversation with a fellow I work with today and he echoed my sentiments in harsher terms. There again the difference being he was living with them as opposed to a short term. I am sure there are as many pleasant people as there are miserable but that is true of any country. Still incensed by Alan Bond's comments after Austrailia won the Cup from Denny. Sure no Sir Thomas Lipton there.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
I have 3 observations concerning yesterdays race.

#1 -- I listened to the explanation as to why these boats can go 2X the wind speed because the wind is pushing on the sail on one side and the water is pushing against the keel on the other. Reminded me of my first day at sailing school when the instructor was talking about the A wind on one side of the sail and the B wind on the other. Everyone on the boat got it except me. I'll bet RichH understood the explanation!!

#2 -- I thought I was at the Reno Air Races with P51 mustangs flying by me!!

#3 -- Have you ever been cruising behind your PITA friend, who always beats you and doesn't hesitate to tell you about it every time or racing behind another boat, such as NZ yesterday, and the boat ahead does something stupid and you say to yourself "I gotcha now!!"??? That's exactly what all the folks on NZ were thinking when USA turned the mark and headed for Sausalito. The first think they thought before "I gotcha" was what are we missing but that thought only lasted one second.

I think USA should have come out for the second race. What do you USA supporters think -- should they have raced the second time??
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I was pretty certain that James Spithill would be relieved and Ben Ainslie would be put in as skipper. I think Spithill is done. That mark rounding was the stupidest stunt imaginable. They had apparently been out Monday practicing a "foiling tack," but with the lead they had it was time to be conservative and cover. All he had to do was watch NZ and determine which ay they were going, and round the mark. Immediately cover NZ, and stay between them and the next mark.

Holy Cow, what a mess he made of it.

I think using their card was to get the time to swap skippers and regroup the team around the new guy.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
They are only postponing the inevitable. TNZ is the better boat without question. Tactics are better, boat handling is better and it appears the boat is slightly faster.
The turn at gate 2 was a flat out disaster and handed the race over to TNZ. Usually the boat that wins the start will win the race and Team USA nailed it. Poor dissension making and less than stellar crew work cost them this race. Even without the 2 penalty points that Team USA has, I don't believe they could beat TNZ. Based on what I've seen so far I doubt that Team USA will score more than 1 more victory.
The Cup is headed down-under!

BTW Don, these boats are sailing nearly 3 times faster than the wind at times.:D
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I think US is inherently faster downwind, and NZ is going better upwind because of better sailing, and sail selection (jib).

The hand on the helm has an enormous impact on the speed of these boats.

Tactics are what lost the race for US yesterday.
 
Jun 8, 2004
2,865
Catalina 320 Dana Point
The admiral has been a soft spoken church woman her whole life, when Oracle threw that "foiling tack" even she screamed "WTF was THAT supposed to be?!!!"
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
#1 -- I listened to the explanation as to why these boats can go 2X the wind speed because the wind is pushing on the sail on one side and the water is pushing against the keel on the other. Reminded me of my first day at sailing school when the instructor was talking about the A wind on one side of the sail and the B wind on the other. Everyone on the boat got it except me. I'll bet RichH understood the explanation!!
There's even a much simpler explanation:
Take a very slippery pumpkin seed and squeeze it fast and hard between your index finger and thumb.
With foils lifting such boats OUT of the water, the 'friction drag' (water) is reduced to a bare minimum .... and that pumpkin seed 'shoots out' between the fingers MUCH faster. :)
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,087
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
What makes good sport?

A sport won't ever capture much interest if there isn't enough of a human element that leads the spectator to believe that victory won't be determined until the finish line. We love football games for the last minute, last second heroics. World Series that aren't won until Game 7 is the stuff of legends. The Masters that is won on the last shot where the difference is a putt that may or may not rim the hole rivets our attention. Nascar races, after 500 miles are sometimes won by inches and the cars just behind the leaders are still bumping and spinning out behind them right up until the end.

Unfortunately for sailboat racing, we don't get that spectacle. We learn that the race is generally won when the boats are still milling about (seemingly aimlessly) before the start. (That's why that spoof that was done during the last olympics was so funny) We learn that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent to make the boats go fast and then we learn that they break down almost at will, and weather delays simply aren't understandable or conducive to capturing the imagination of the spectator (contrast that to football games in the snow or frigid temperatures). When matches are routinely won at 4-0, people begin to yawn. It might be impressive to watch these massive boats come up on a foil ... for a few minutes. But if the possibility of a last second reversal of fortune isn't likely to happen, who cares?

Hollywood can make sailboat racing seem exciting (as they did in Wind or Charlie St. Cloud), but the reality is far more disappointing.

The issue that I have with sailboat racing is that it is far more interesting to participate in it than it is to actually watch. I think some of it also has to do with the massive ego that seems to be attached to those who rise to the top, and particularly how it is so conspicuously related to the amount of money that is spent. More than any other sport, sailboat racing seems to be associated with super-rich a-holes and that aspect of it seems to be making sailboat racing more alienating than ever, lately.

When the AC was associated with national pride, it had a chance to capture a spectator's interest. Now, it seems doomed to be merely a spectacle for the oddballs (sorry) who seem to find something interesting about it. It will go on with or without spectators, though. The movers and shakers involved in it have so much money and such massive egos that they will continue the spectacle merely for their self-aggrandizement.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,786
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Scott, very good observations. I agree that participating is usually more fun than watching. However, I was out there on Tuesday on the way to one of our favorite anchorages. (You can see me on the video !!!! east of Mark 2 between the large white Hornblower party ship and a large white trawler and a BIG blue hulled sailboat :), no sails up, white hull, blue mainsail cover and blue furling jib trim. I was there pretty much by accident, hadn't planned it, but figure, what the heck, if I'm near Mark 2 I'll go take a look! :)). Locals also know that they do the commentary on the races on VHF CH20, so I was aware of what was happening.

I've raced on The Bay for many years, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you "do The Cityfront" (hug the shore) when there's a building flood. And also, when there is a lot of south in the wind, as there was on Tuesday, your best bet is "to do the long boards" first when going upwind. The Kiwis went onto starboard tack, the "short board" to get relief from the current, while the Americans really blew it by BOTH doing a horrible maneuver AND going out into the flood, although on the port tack long board.

Them's the choices you have to make when sailing here.

In this regard, then, the Americans had a 105 m lead and blew it. Completely.

So at least there WAS a lead change.

And it was pretty exciting to watch in person, although having been on a friend's stake boat for the AC45 races and seeing this one, it is more exciting to watch on TV. They're big and they're fast, and Mark 2 has had some great moments. It was pretty thrilling to see them both rounding Mark 2, although I've had them come and buzz me while they were practicing during the earlier parts of the summer, and they were a LOT closer than I was able to get on Tuesday.

It's really too bad the commentators, except for Gary Jobson, seem to have no clue. I've already noted that their continued use of phrase "The Cone of Alcatraz" is simply wrong, 'cuz the Cone is east of the island, not south of it - yeah, there's a little current nudge from the flood bouncing off the southwest corner, but that's it. The Cone is actually the dead air area east of the Island, where one can get some current relief BEHIND the island (during a normal west wind summer race, the general wind direction is 242 magnetic), not south of it. On a flood, going anywhere near the southwest corner of the island is just plain wrong for sailing upwind.

I'm just waiting for NBC to do their commercial breaks at the start AND at each of the marks! That'd make it REALLY exciting to watch. Hmmm...:):):)

I think the commentators miss the mark (pun intended :)) when they don't talk strategy, AND miss explaning (at all!) what to many of us who race here are plainly obvious issues. Trying to make a sailboat race start like an automobile race is not something I think has any bearing on the races. At least they stopped saying, "He's motoring along at high speed!" Geez...:):):)

My wife says I should watch but turn the sound off! She is, of course, right yet again! :eek::eek::eek:
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
A sport won't ever capture much interest if there isn't enough of a human element that leads the spectator to believe that victory won't be determined until the finish line. We love football games for the last minute, last second heroics. World Series that aren't won until Game 7 is the stuff of legends. The Masters that is won on the last shot where the difference is a putt that may or may not rim the hole rivets our attention. Nascar races, after 500 miles are sometimes won by inches and the cars just behind the leaders are still bumping and spinning out behind them right up until the end.

Unfortunately for sailboat racing, we don't get that spectacle. We learn that the race is generally won when the boats are still milling about (seemingly aimlessly) before the start. (That's why that spoof that was done during the last olympics was so funny) We learn that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent to make the boats go fast and then we learn that they break down almost at will, and weather delays simply aren't understandable or conducive to capturing the imagination of the spectator (contrast that to football games in the snow or frigid temperatures). When matches are routinely won at 4-0, people begin to yawn. It might be impressive to watch these massive boats come up on a foil ... for a few minutes. But if the possibility of a last second reversal of fortune isn't likely to happen, who cares?

Hollywood can make sailboat racing seem exciting (as they did in Wind or Charlie St. Cloud), but the reality is far more disappointing.

The issue that I have with sailboat racing is that it is far more interesting to participate in it than it is to actually watch. I think some of it also has to do with the massive ego that seems to be attached to those who rise to the top, and particularly how it is so conspicuously related to the amount of money that is spent. More than any other sport, sailboat racing seems to be associated with super-rich a-holes and that aspect of it seems to be making sailboat racing more alienating than ever, lately.

When the AC was associated with national pride, it had a chance to capture a spectator's interest. Now, it seems doomed to be merely a spectacle for the oddballs (sorry) who seem to find something interesting about it. It will go on with or without spectators, though. The movers and shakers involved in it have so much money and such massive egos that they will continue the spectacle merely for their self-aggrandizement.
Little human element in it - compared to NASCAR? None of these sailing yachts, not even the AC72's does anything without human (and wind) power. Even lifting and raising the boards/foils requires humans grinding on hydraulic pumps. There's also a great deal of continuous, second to second teamwork required. A far cry from stepping on the gas.

National pride = spectator interest? Yea, tell that to MLB fans, señor.

Money? A team budget in AC is about $100M, one boat about $10M. The payroll alone of the NY Yankees is $229M. Per year.

I happen to like it, enjoy watching it, following it, studying the technology, etc. I think the technical quality of the coverage is superb (thanks to Larry Ellison bankrolling it). I'm not too happy about the commentators, and one of my main beefs is their apparent need to use analogies from other sports - heavyweight championship, hole shot, etc., etc. Just tell it like it is!
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,087
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
jviss, it is funny how you miss the point. Any one of the Nascar drivers has charisma and name recognition to spare. While the guys crewing these boats certainly have dedicated themselves to fitness and teamwork, and their athleticism isn't in question, they seem, to the spectator, to be merely cogs in the machinery of the boats, which is where the owners have truly focused their attention and fortune. The cogs are replaceable.

While the Yankees spend over $200 million in payroll, the players are not replaceable without sacrificing performance. The spectators come out to see those players ... so much so that at a $200 million payroll, the team is hugely profitable (because of the spectators).

Are you making the case that a $100 million dollar boat is profitable in the realm of sport? While the boats are impressive, does any of these boats have the ability to draw a fan's interest like Derek Jeter? Colin Kaepernick? Phil Mickelson? Danica Patrick?

Larry Ellison's failure doesn't bode well for the image of AC racing. "Playing the postponement card" ???? WTF?! At this point, they are just trying to avoid an embarrassing near-sweep. Of course some Superbowls are one-sided victories, too, but it seems like the one-sided dominations are basically the rule and exciting competition the exception, at least in AC racing.

AC racing isn't going to advance in the eyes of common folks with this formula. It's still dependent upon eccentric, egotistical billionaires to keep it going. Lucky for you, there seems to be no shortage of them.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetel...-oracle-team-usa-are-losing-the-americas-cup/
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Scott,

Why can't you just make a point without getting personal?

I am not missing your point, you are just not making one. Your apparent lack of interest in the sport or disdain for it, does not mean it has no appeal to anyone.

The skippers of these yachts are international sports stars. Spithill was the youngest winning America's cup skipper. The American team alternate, Ben Ainslie is an Olympic gold medalist. There are tacticians as well, and trimmers, and extremely athletic grinders. "Cogs?" What are you talking about?

So, you have some measure that you haven't completely shared, related to general popularity, name recognition, profitability, etc., that legitimizes a sport? Who cares?

If you don't like it, fine, you don't have to watch it. I don't care if it advances in the eyes of common folk. From what I've seen of popular culture I really don't care for it.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,748
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Scott, why don't you just start a new "Americas Cup Sucks" thread rather than crapping up this one?
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,087
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Don't take offense ...

jviss, I am usually in wholehearted agreement with the postings that come from you so I apologize if my response offended you. I don't have disdain for the sport of sailboat racing but I do have an opinion that it is far more interesting as a participatory sport than it is as a spectator sport. I think Stu has made some excellent points about how the ball has been dropped on that score. He is basically saying that it is painful to watch a sport that he loves because the coverage is lacking in many aspects.

This thread was lagging interest anyway, so I thought I would throw out my opinions and I'm glad to see that they stirred the pot a little. :D Besides, I think that my point was pretty specific. By no measure is there any more than marginal interest in AC racing except from an extremely narrow band of people who have some connection to sailing ... and even among us the interest is very meager. Apparently, we have no affinity for a national interest since nobody has shown any interest in rooting for the US boat. I think that the lack of real competition is the factor in this case. There simply isn't much competition to get excited about. Watching some boats sail fast is interesting to a point, but there is a pretty obvious lack of competition ... which is what spectators come to see. Wasn't that made plain in the article I linked?

Why shouldn't criticism be accepted in any discussion? I used to follow ski racing a lot more back in the day. But when it came right down to it, I was usually skiing at the times when ski racing might happen to be on TV, so even I wasn't very interested in viewing. There are many sports where competition is only interesting to the competitor. That just can't be helped. But in this case, I think there is such a lack of competition that even competitors are yawning.

There are other factors ... one of the posters in here said something about how much it sucks to spend a thousand dollars for a weekend (or a day?) to view the event, only to be told that the event is to be postponed for weather, or maybe because one competitor thinks it is to his advantage to postpone? I wonder if the Superbowl will be postponed this year in New Jersey if there happens to be a snowstorm, or if the coach of the Patriots thinks that Tom Brady didn't get a good nights sleep! ;)
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Re: Ainslie in, Kostecki out as tactician on Oracle Team USA

What an embarrassment for the USA. I agree with Alan (LI,NY) -- "it's all over but the crying!!". The only hope USA has is if the NZ boat breakes in half or if USA rams it. I think Stu J could give USA a go.

Stu, I saw your boat in the replay -- 2 masts, radar domes on both masts, teak deck, nice bimini and a beautiful black paint job. Looked like you and the Mrs. on the bow, you with "tinney" (Aussie for beer) and her with a cocktail, were enjoying the race. Us common seaman had to watch the race on TV!!
 
Aug 20, 2010
1,399
Oday 27 Oak Orchard
While the opera lady hasn't sung she is certainly ready to bellow it seems. Good job TNZ. And why in blazes the last time I sailed 25yearsago is the same thing happening? 25yearslater we are losing the cup again. I'll tip my proverbial hat to them for an exciting spectacle and all the teams that have mounted a challenge or defense. I sure as hell couldn't do it. Nice job to all.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,786
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
I listened into the VHF CH 20 coverage today.

These "commentators" have NO CLUE that they are working on RADIO.

They might take a CLUE from folks who do radio baseball games. Whre's the runner, what tack are they on?

Horrible coverage.

Both radio and TV.

I'll go watch the replay, The Admiral doesn't know what happened, and suggested I don't tell her.

Not yet, at least.

Yuck.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,111
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
It's a good thing some of the B boat crew cheated or this could have been worse for Oracle..

It could be recorded as the first AC race in which the defender recorded negative total wins
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,786
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Don, thanks.

MOST folks don't know the REAL score is + whatever it is to MINUS 1.

Even the bloody "commentators." :):):)
 
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