Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July

[TDudley]

I am sure you guys know that it boils down to the state you are in that decides what training you need to operate a boat. I sail the Chesapeake in Maryland and believe anyone born after 1972 is required to have passed a boating safety class. In DC, where I live, everyone is required to take a boating safety course. And with the the Internet, you can take these courses on line.

I also think weight/passenger placards is a good idea. It was weird to me that my 1981 27' sailboat does not have one, but my 1982 20' motorboat does. But one thing I do know is that the CG calculation shows 14 passengers allowed on the sailboat and there is no way I'm putting that many people on board. We limited the action to six for comfort and besides it only sleeps six (Main Sail: do you think the manual was speaking of sleeping in terms of the passenger limit).

Another thing is that I will not have more than 7 on the motorboat because that is what the sign says and the Admiral would not think of allowing more.

 

[SEMIJim]

OMG he's screwed, just re-scrolling and saw this.

Maybe. Maybe not. That info is for a later model of the boat. It's got more beam and greater displacement, true, but it's not the same boat.

I wonder if an owner's manual for the boat of the same vintage as the one that was flipped can be found, and if it lists similar limits?

Jim

 

[Anonymous 121765]

I don't know man, you guys seemed to be preoccupied with statistics, number of passengers, regulations etc. These didn't cause the sinking, the captain caused it.

The guy supposedly had the experience, he just didn't employ it. After all is said & done, he failed..............simple.

CR

 

[Ross]

Did you ever ride a jeetney in the Philippines? twenty people on a rebuilt world war 2 jeep was just a profitable load. Four to the right of the driver and three to the left. Americans got a seat and the guy that gave up his seat hung onto the outside.

 

[anchorclanker]

Not discounting the skippers fault, I am curious how large a wave would cause trouble for a boat such as this, as well as why it sank. I would have thought a boat such as this would have flotation.

When we were out on our 222 that night, we got into some good wakes a couple times, some appeared to be 3 footers or so, it really rolled us around. Could 5 or 6 foot wakes be a problem for a boat that size, even if that boat was more sanely loaded?

 

[Anonymous 121765]

A,

Take a look of an earlier post I did that addressed a wake's effect.

Think about it, boat wakes are close together when they hit. The first one rolls you over hard, the people's weight suddenly shift, and the next wave completes the roll over. The boat turned turtle then sank.

There will be no conclusive assesment in this thead, only conjecture..........

CR

 

[weinie]

As I said in an earlier post, there was a megayacht of about 150ft in length which was in the area at the same time. Had it been going upwards of 20knots, perhaps it could have caused a wake large enough to capsize even a normally loaded 34 foot boat. I would imagine that all it would take is for the aft corner of the silverton to dip just enough below the water to allow the cockpit to quickly fill up as it gets weighted down. Just a theory. Probably make a good mythbusters episode, I suppose.

 

[Ross]

IF he made a hard turn on the wrong side of a wake wave and IF he was overloaded and IF he was going too fast then Maybe it was the fault of someone else.

 

[Maine Sail]

As I said in an earlier post, there was a megayacht of about 150ft in length which was in the area at the same time. Had it been going upwards of 20knots, perhaps it could have caused a wake large enough to capsize even a normally loaded 34 foot boat. I would imagine that all it would take is for the aft corner of the silverton to dip just enough below the water to allow the cockpit to quickly fill up as it gets weighted down. Just a theory. Probably make a good mythbusters episode, I suppose.

::
And what happened to the other 200-300 boats? The wake only hit the one boat that just happened to be grossly over loaded.... sure...

 

[Scott B]

My point has always been that accountability is never an all or nothing proposition. In many cases where there is tragedy, there is blame that can be spread around considerably, and I think this is one of them.

I read this in another forum (noreast.com) so I can't vouch for the statement but here goes nonetheless ...

"There is neither a federal regulation that limits capacity of a recreational boat of that size, nor a voluntary standard, said Petty Officer Thomas McKenzie, a spokesman for the Coast Guard in New York City". This supposedly reported in the NY Times. IF true, I think that's a problem ... and it also answers the remarks of people who think that somebody should have called an "authority" to stop the boater from over-loading the boat.

Furthermore, I was reading that New York does not even require boat operators to take a Safe Boating course. And we want boaters to a have a uniform standard of competency?

MS, what you say frankly astounds me and I am not sure I understand your meaning ... stability testing is not required because of expense?!?!?!?! How does a manufacturer know if the boat they have designed is safe for anybody? Yes, I do place a great deal of responsibility on manufacturers for creating safe products, especially when they advertise and promote their products based on luxury, spaciousness and glamour. People should not be deceived when it comes to safety. For that reason, I think a capacity plate is imperative.

Knowing that there are countless bullets that I have dodged in my life due to my own irresponsible behaviour at times (many of them unknowingly, I imagine), I'm not so ready to condemn people on face value for their role in a tragedy. I often think "but for the grace of God, go I". I'm even relieved that my own kids survived my parenting. That said, I also think that overloading in this case seems very obvious, and maybe should have been obvious even to a lay person, but I wasn't there so I don't know what they were thinking or being told.

Would you put 25 - 30 people on your boat? I'm sure you could fit them all, below in the cabin and up on deck. Does that make sense to you? Do you have a capacity plate on your boat or do you know the rating for your boat? You could transfer the information from your owners manual and have a plate made up so all your guests can see it when they board.

No matter if there is or was a capacity plate, I can bet that no one boarding would look to read it.

The boat has been rated, the testing and rating have been published.

 

[weinie]

::
And what happened to the other 200-300 boats? The wake only hit the one boat that just happened to be grossly over loaded.... sure...

It was just a hypothesis. When I very young, my family and I were on a pontoon boat fishing and having lunch in Reynolds channel on the southwestern part of Long Island on a Sunday afternoon. Tons of powerboats were going back and forth as they always did on a perfect summer day. A body of water that is gentle enough to water ski barefoot on one day can look a lot different on Sunday afternoon when the weather cooperates and every boater is out on the water. Long story short, a big wave hits us, somehow forcing one pontoon loose from the structure. The torque on the remaining pontoon then forced that loose as well, and the boat now without any means of flotation, quickly started submerging beneath the surface. A lot of things could have contributed to what happened that day: perhaps the bolts that held the pontoon were never maintained properly or perhaps the design and placement of the bolts were mechanically unsound. And yes, a boat like that is obviously more suited for a lake than a busy saltwater thoroughfare. Who knows? My family and I were out many, many times on that "float boat" as we called it prior to that Sunday. But without a doubt in my mind, it was excessive wake of other boats in the area that day that put enough the stress on the boat to cause it to go down that day and not on another.

 

[Ross]

Many years ago my son came home from a date and told me that the car was making an unusual clicking sound that he could also feel in the steering wheel. I told him to take it to our mechanic the next day. He did. And came back with a report the the front suspension had rusted free of the frame and was on the verge of leaving home. I called the junk dealer that day. At the first sign of impending failure it is prudent to investigate.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Scott, I'm not so sure about the "rating" ...

The owner's manual has a recommendation. That's not the same thing and it may not carry any weight from a liability standpoint, as we may come to learn.

As far as I know, a rating comes from testing. Prototypes of windows and doors have to be tested in a laboratory to get an industry rating, for instance. According to MS, testing may not even be done on boats due to the expense. What's up with that? Should mass-produced recreational boats be tested and rated?

I doubt that it would be all that important for fixed keel sail boats such as many of us own. The space limitations probably make any kind of stability analysis a moot issue. Like I've been saying, you simply can't fit an unsafe load on these boats.

But it has been shown to be an issue on other mass-produced boats, where the physical space is capable of accomodating an unsafe load. Granted, the number of incidents may not support the requirement to police the industry. Maybe we just go along blaming the unfortunate individuals who make bad decisions. I just happen to think that there may be some negligence involved with the design of some boats.

Keep in mind that most engineered products come with a built-in factor of safety. For instance, if a boat were to be engineered, tested and rated to have a capacity of 10, there would undoubtedly be a factor of safety, often 2 or 3 times the "rating". Expensive, yes ... but standard stuff for engineered structures. I don't know enough about the maritime industry to know how designs are backed-up with a factor of safety.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

I read somewhere a 'eyewitness' boat was sitting at anchor waiting for the commotion to dissipate when he shined a Q-beam at this boat to warn them they were bearing down on them, and he turned sharp to avoid.

if he's on a plane, with a flybridge of people, and the rage of 50 boats taking off toward a cut, on a somewhat stormy night... I could see it. I don't think silverton is deep vee either. more of an express than a sport fish.

think these are a silvertons

http://cimages2.carsforsale.com/336151/491B95CE-DA41-4051-86DF-B52BE80CA883_1.jpg

http://media.channelblade.com/boat_graphics/dealers/2661/digi44384331_l.jpg

 

[justsomeguy]

The owner's manual has a recommendation. That's not the same thing and it may not carry any weight from a liability standpoint, as we may come to learn.

-Snip.

Yep. A recommendation is just that. The FAA taught me that.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Guys,

I have to agree with Mainsail, HE nailed it.

However, I see we are still going over the same hypotheses. I don't believe we can carry this any further. I believe some of us have a good idea of the circumstances leading up to this.

It's only the final official end report that awaits us. I do believe it WILL be inconclusive (sadly).

What good this site has been was to awake us that safety & responsibility should ALWAYS prevail...........and firstly, while still at the dock.


The only unreputed fact in all of this is that 3 kids will never have the chance to experience life as we are now..........

CR

 

[Steve W]

Weinie mentioned a "mega yacht" in the vicinity. That particular one (if that's what he was referring to) is "Knickerbocker" and is owned by the Dolan's. More to the point, however, is we get numerous "mega yachts" in Oyster Bay. All vessels like that are captained by professional and they never steam into the bay at more than 5-6 kts. and there's virtually no wake. As a rule, they never even throttle up until just about abeam of the Sand Pit on the way out and if they're inbound they've already throttled down to the 5 kt range as they enter the bay. Unlike the numerous power cruisers who seem to think the No Wake signs are there for purely decoration. There's a No Wake sign just opposite Dolan's property before you get past the point to Seawanhaka YC. I can't tell you how often I see some of these yahoo's blow past the sign at 15+ kts!

More to the point is something someone else pointed out in another thread here about how many bodies we've had on our boats. One person posited that if you're at the dock and as folks are boarding the boat starts to heel, you've reached your limit for that boat.

A good rule of thumb!

 

[tommays]

The FBI dive team was bought in to assess the salvage and run it in manner that will preserve the evidence , the boat should be in inpound today if the plan works

IF NOT there going to wait till it will

 

[weinie]

FWIW, it is not Dolan's boat. This one is "DREAmer".

 

[SEMIJim]

Weinie mentioned a "mega yacht" in the vicinity. That particular one (if that's what he was referring to) is "Knickerbocker" and is owned by the Dolan's. More to the point, however, is we get numerous "mega yachts" in Oyster Bay. All vessels like that are captained by professional and they never steam into the bay at more than 5-6 kts. and there's virtually no wake.

I don't know as captaining by professionals is always a guarantee. Witness this, from over at SA:

"Seattle Harbor Patrol, Seattle Harbor Patrol, Seattle Harbor Patrol, this is Olympic Star.

"Olympic Star, this is Seattle Harbor Patrol Base, go ahead."

"Harbor Patrol, you might want to check a boat out near Foster Island, traveling at a high rate of speed and tossing off a lot of wake."

"Thank you, Olympic Star. We'll look into it."

then...from someone else...

"Hey Olympic Star! You might want to watch your own wake!"

"This is the Olympic Star, who is this?"

"This is the boat you waked in the channel, tossing most of my stuff on deck overboard. Luckily my passengers didn't go over."

Then came the "I'm the professional captain you recreational boater" snide tone with...

"Er, Olympic Star was doing *6.5* knots."

Implying that they were under the 7kt limit.

then...this comes on.

Olympic Star, this is Seattle Harbor, it's the *wake* not the speed."

Ref: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=136919&view=findpost&p=3779055

Jim