FWIW: Local lake-specific site with 99-44/100% powerboaters: Same reaction: "27 people on a 34' boat like that?"
Jim
Tragic boat sinking on 4th of July
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Jim
I don't believe you can compare the capacity of a 34' powerboat with a high superstructure to a 34' sailboat. I don't know whether powerboats are designed with a righting moment as sailboats are but I doubt they are.
Putting the displacement aside, this boat has a 3'-3" draft with most of the weight above the waterline. I'm guessing most cruising sailboats have a draft of at least 5' with most of the weight below the waterline.
A few years ago I had the mast taken off the boat (for some work to be done) in Oyster Bay and then drove the boat around the corner to Huntington for winter wet storage. Water was dead calm. Even in those conditions we were rolling like crazy and when we'd encounter some mild (2' ? ) wake, despite aiming for a 45 deg bow entrance to the wake there were a few instances when we rolled to the point where the rail was almost in the water. And that's with 7,000 lbs of keel under us.
When you have that kind of powerboat with all that weight topside (and I'm guessing there was a crowd on the flying bridge) it doesn't take a genius to see that the leverage alone could cause a roll over in even a calm sea.
Putting the displacement aside, this boat has a 3'-3" draft with most of the weight above the waterline. I'm guessing most cruising sailboats have a draft of at least 5' with most of the weight below the waterline.
A few years ago I had the mast taken off the boat (for some work to be done) in Oyster Bay and then drove the boat around the corner to Huntington for winter wet storage. Water was dead calm. Even in those conditions we were rolling like crazy and when we'd encounter some mild (2' ? ) wake, despite aiming for a 45 deg bow entrance to the wake there were a few instances when we rolled to the point where the rail was almost in the water. And that's with 7,000 lbs of keel under us.
When you have that kind of powerboat with all that weight topside (and I'm guessing there was a crowd on the flying bridge) it doesn't take a genius to see that the leverage alone could cause a roll over in even a calm sea.
For those who missed it this is PAGE #1 of the Silverton 34C owners manual. These specs, with SAFE LOADING, are not buried deep in the manual. It is easy to find, took me all of about 30 seconds, and though for the later, but larger & heavier 34C, it shows a very good guideline for safe vessel loading of a boat of that type.
I have spent countless hour on vessels of this type and even 15 would be obnoxiously over loaded on an 80's Silverton 34.
I spent an entire 14 hour day tuna fishing on a 52' Buddy Davis with 13 total people, 3 crew & 10 guests, and even on that massive vessel 13 was completely and utterly uncomfortable and in rough seas not everyone had a place to sit comfortably even on a 52 footer. The captain made the comment he would never do that again and decided that day that 10 total was the max limit for that boat despite the technical "safe loading" being much higher..
Silverton 34C Owners Manual Page #1
I have spent countless hour on vessels of this type and even 15 would be obnoxiously over loaded on an 80's Silverton 34.
I spent an entire 14 hour day tuna fishing on a 52' Buddy Davis with 13 total people, 3 crew & 10 guests, and even on that massive vessel 13 was completely and utterly uncomfortable and in rough seas not everyone had a place to sit comfortably even on a 52 footer. The captain made the comment he would never do that again and decided that day that 10 total was the max limit for that boat despite the technical "safe loading" being much higher..
Silverton 34C Owners Manual Page #1
Right ... so if the capacity was required to be plainly posted on a capacity plate, a cautious adult may have turned away and saved their child from drowing in this incident. I really don't understand why capacity has to be kept secret from people boarding the boat. What is the counter-argument for requiring capacity plates on recreational boats in this catagory, the same as required for boats under 20'?
The key words there is "cautious adults". There were NO cautious adults on that boat.....:cussing:
You have every right as a US citizen to petition the USCG, NMMA and the ABYC to get this changed. Start with your own US Representatives and Senators. I am already discussing this on our private ABYC forum. Have you done this? Did you do this after the Heart of Sailing deaths in which you chose to also blame the boat builder rather than the skipper? I opened the channels of communication with the ABYC after that event and continue pushing for that today.
I am in complete agreement that some US citizens have become SOOOOOOOO DUMB that we now need to have placards in an "attempt" to stop people from being idiots and piling nearly 3X the safe number of passengers on a boat.. Sadly it won't work and will only add to the cost of boats, FOR EVERYONE, as the stability testing is not cheap. Once again we need to charge the 99.9% of boaters who have a clue for the 0.1% who are complete nincompoops.
People still overload boats with placards, every day... Passed a 12' Sea Nymph aluminum runabout with 6 people and 1 child this weekend. I hailed the USCG on 22A and let them know about it...
Government concern and safety efforts don't work very well on the roads I can think of no reason why it will work on the water. Yesterday a line of cars pulled over for an ambulance and some fool in a jeep was closely following the ambulance in order to pass everybody that stopped.
In Maryland it is unlawful to operate a motorcycle without a licence. Last week an unlicenced motorcycle driver drove into the side of a dumptruck and killed himself. On the 7th of June he was in district court for operating without a license and without registration. He was un licensed when he crashed. Darwin-1 People -0
In Maryland it is unlawful to operate a motorcycle without a licence. Last week an unlicenced motorcycle driver drove into the side of a dumptruck and killed himself. On the 7th of June he was in district court for operating without a license and without registration. He was un licensed when he crashed. Darwin-1 People -0
I think we should mandate placards on all boats.
I think owners should be forced to memorize them.
I think owners should be forced to prove knowledge of them by repeating them at mandatory boardings by law enforcement.
I think all people on boats must know how to swim. All people on boats must pass an annual mandatory 50 yard swim test. All boaters must show proof of compliance by submitting a $150 annual fee for an authorized certificate and furnishing such to any boarding enforcement officials.
All boat owners must be required to have on board one full bottle of SPF 50 equivalent or greater sun tan lotion to aid in the prevention of skin cancer for all passengers. Such bottle shall be furnished to any inquiring law enforcement official.
As there is an epidemic of obesity in this country, I believe sugar soft drinks and juices over 12 ounces shall not be permitted on board any vessel in national waters.
Oh, and anyone putting anything into any toilet that isn't toilet paper or hasn't passed through the body first causing a backup in said toilet shall be fined $10,000.00 and shall be summarily executed by the captain.
I think owners should be forced to memorize them.
I think owners should be forced to prove knowledge of them by repeating them at mandatory boardings by law enforcement.
I think all people on boats must know how to swim. All people on boats must pass an annual mandatory 50 yard swim test. All boaters must show proof of compliance by submitting a $150 annual fee for an authorized certificate and furnishing such to any boarding enforcement officials.
All boat owners must be required to have on board one full bottle of SPF 50 equivalent or greater sun tan lotion to aid in the prevention of skin cancer for all passengers. Such bottle shall be furnished to any inquiring law enforcement official.
As there is an epidemic of obesity in this country, I believe sugar soft drinks and juices over 12 ounces shall not be permitted on board any vessel in national waters.
Oh, and anyone putting anything into any toilet that isn't toilet paper or hasn't passed through the body first causing a backup in said toilet shall be fined $10,000.00 and shall be summarily executed by the captain.
all except the part about capital punishment for head cloggers.
in other news,
Fire is hot, and water is wet, and, you can die if you do something stupid on the water.
Nature is unforgiving of fools.
But (thankfully), this is still a free country were we are (Still) allowed by our government to do foolish things, at our own risks.
-Thank GOD!
now maybe the passengers didn't know what they were doing was dangerous. but they should have !
wiener,
actually, I'm actually in favor of a boating license. There should be some basic test of skills to operate a boat.
I see it all the time. people with more money than brains, buying boats and learning by trial an error.
actually, I'm actually in favor of a boating license. There should be some basic test of skills to operate a boat.
I see it all the time. people with more money than brains, buying boats and learning by trial an error.
I've never excused the captain in either case ....
My point has always been that accountability is never an all or nothing proposition. In many cases where there is tragedy, there is blame that can be spread around considerably, and I think this is one of them.
I read this in another forum (noreast.com) so I can't vouch for the statement but here goes nonetheless ...
"There is neither a federal regulation that limits capacity of a recreational boat of that size, nor a voluntary standard, said Petty Officer Thomas McKenzie, a spokesman for the Coast Guard in New York City". This supposedly reported in the NY Times. IF true, I think that's a problem ... and it also answers the remarks of people who think that somebody should have called an "authority" to stop the boater from over-loading the boat.
Furthermore, I was reading that New York does not even require boat operators to take a Safe Boating course. And we want boaters to a have a uniform standard of competency?
MS, what you say frankly astounds me and I am not sure I understand your meaning ... stability testing is not required because of expense?!?!?!?! How does a manufacturer know if the boat they have designed is safe for anybody? Yes, I do place a great deal of responsibility on manufacturers for creating safe products, especially when they advertise and promote their products based on luxury, spaciousness and glamour. People should not be deceived when it comes to safety. For that reason, I think a capacity plate is imperative.
Knowing that there are countless bullets that I have dodged in my life due to my own irresponsible behaviour at times (many of them unknowingly, I imagine), I'm not so ready to condemn people on face value for their role in a tragedy. I often think "but for the grace of God, go I". I'm even relieved that my own kids survived my parenting. That said, I also think that overloading in this case seems very obvious, and maybe should have been obvious even to a lay person, but I wasn't there so I don't know what they were thinking or being told.
My point has always been that accountability is never an all or nothing proposition. In many cases where there is tragedy, there is blame that can be spread around considerably, and I think this is one of them.
I read this in another forum (noreast.com) so I can't vouch for the statement but here goes nonetheless ...
"There is neither a federal regulation that limits capacity of a recreational boat of that size, nor a voluntary standard, said Petty Officer Thomas McKenzie, a spokesman for the Coast Guard in New York City". This supposedly reported in the NY Times. IF true, I think that's a problem ... and it also answers the remarks of people who think that somebody should have called an "authority" to stop the boater from over-loading the boat.
Furthermore, I was reading that New York does not even require boat operators to take a Safe Boating course. And we want boaters to a have a uniform standard of competency?
MS, what you say frankly astounds me and I am not sure I understand your meaning ... stability testing is not required because of expense?!?!?!?! How does a manufacturer know if the boat they have designed is safe for anybody? Yes, I do place a great deal of responsibility on manufacturers for creating safe products, especially when they advertise and promote their products based on luxury, spaciousness and glamour. People should not be deceived when it comes to safety. For that reason, I think a capacity plate is imperative.
Knowing that there are countless bullets that I have dodged in my life due to my own irresponsible behaviour at times (many of them unknowingly, I imagine), I'm not so ready to condemn people on face value for their role in a tragedy. I often think "but for the grace of God, go I". I'm even relieved that my own kids survived my parenting. That said, I also think that overloading in this case seems very obvious, and maybe should have been obvious even to a lay person, but I wasn't there so I don't know what they were thinking or being told.
Re: I've never excused the captain in either case ....
Scott, Every summer some homeowner Puts a hundred people on a residental deck fifteen feet above the ground, turns on the music and the booze and the people start boogying and shake the deck down. The owner says, "I don't understand . It never did that before." Even when the construction meets building codes people can find ways to defeat it. This is partly why the fire marshall places limits on occupancy for public places and that also gets violated. What good will it do if there is a placard that states the maximum number of people allowed on a boat is twelve if there are fourteen in the party? will two of them elect to stay on shore? Suppose all twelve are morbidly obese is twelve still a valid number?
Scott, Every summer some homeowner Puts a hundred people on a residental deck fifteen feet above the ground, turns on the music and the booze and the people start boogying and shake the deck down. The owner says, "I don't understand . It never did that before." Even when the construction meets building codes people can find ways to defeat it. This is partly why the fire marshall places limits on occupancy for public places and that also gets violated. What good will it do if there is a placard that states the maximum number of people allowed on a boat is twelve if there are fourteen in the party? will two of them elect to stay on shore? Suppose all twelve are morbidly obese is twelve still a valid number?
If you think there isn't enough federal regulation of boats, think again:
http://law.justia.com/cfr/title33/33-2.0.1.8.44.html
http://law.justia.com/cfr/title33/33-2.0.1.8.44.html
Apparently the law in any country does mandate common sense. Don't preach common sense, too many people do not have it. I am beginning to think that common sense is not something everyone's born with, therefore not all that common. If you don't believe me, get out there in rush hour traffic.
Would I put 27 people on that size boat? Not hardly. I've fished the Pamlico Sound, Chesapeake and Atlantic beachfront all my life with my father and myself at the helm and yes, to us this is common sense, but like I stated, common sense is getting less common and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW.
My dad views passengers as potential law suits and that limits his passenger carrying... you can just imagine how many get aboard.
According to one of the accounts I read, they were underway and had an anchored vessel in front of them, the anchored vessel shown lights and the Silverton made a hard turn and lost it. If there was more than just one witness to this action, the skipper better hire a lawyer rather the kids were his nephews and neices or not.
It's a cruel thing for children to be taken due to the lack of foresight of their parents but it happens everyday; however, being as the kids were on the water with their families, they must have been well loved, family time is the best time on the water and I wouldn't trade one day on the water with my dad for anything. I am sorry this happened but the parents and adults on that boat are going through more agony than these harsh opinions will every put them through.
Would I put 27 people on that size boat? Not hardly. I've fished the Pamlico Sound, Chesapeake and Atlantic beachfront all my life with my father and myself at the helm and yes, to us this is common sense, but like I stated, common sense is getting less common and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAW.
My dad views passengers as potential law suits and that limits his passenger carrying... you can just imagine how many get aboard.
According to one of the accounts I read, they were underway and had an anchored vessel in front of them, the anchored vessel shown lights and the Silverton made a hard turn and lost it. If there was more than just one witness to this action, the skipper better hire a lawyer rather the kids were his nephews and neices or not.
It's a cruel thing for children to be taken due to the lack of foresight of their parents but it happens everyday; however, being as the kids were on the water with their families, they must have been well loved, family time is the best time on the water and I wouldn't trade one day on the water with my dad for anything. I am sorry this happened but the parents and adults on that boat are going through more agony than these harsh opinions will every put them through.
OMG he's screwed, just re-scrolling and saw this.For those who missed it this is PAGE #1 of the Silverton 34C owners manual. These specs, with SAFE LOADING, are not buried deep in the manual. It is easy to find, took me all of about 30 seconds, and though for the later, but larger & heavier 34C, it shows a very good guideline for safe vessel loading of a boat of that type.
I have spent countless hour on vessels of this type and even 15 would be obnoxiously over loaded on an 80's Silverton 34.
I spent an entire 14 hour day tuna fishing on a 52' Buddy Davis with 13 total people, 3 crew & 10 guests, and even on that massive vessel 13 was completely and utterly uncomfortable and in rough seas not everyone had a place to sit comfortably even on a 52 footer. The captain made the comment he would never do that again and decided that day that 10 total was the max limit for that boat despite the technical "safe loading" being much higher..
Silverton 34C Owners Manual Page #1
Guys,
Forget the manuals, the number of guests, the conditions, the rain and all the other bullshit.
You can't educate STUPIDITY & ignorance. Dumb people will hurt themselves & others. I ain't never gonna happen. Remember the redneck's last words before killing himself, "You ain't gonn believe this shit".
What about the *******/cowardly captain of the ocean liner Concordia, he was trained, licensed, had seatime and how many did his negligence KILL???
It's all about how YOU run your boat guys, you're the responsible party, you & only you............
CR
Forget the manuals, the number of guests, the conditions, the rain and all the other bullshit.
You can't educate STUPIDITY & ignorance. Dumb people will hurt themselves & others. I ain't never gonna happen. Remember the redneck's last words before killing himself, "You ain't gonn believe this shit".
What about the *******/cowardly captain of the ocean liner Concordia, he was trained, licensed, had seatime and how many did his negligence KILL???
It's all about how YOU run your boat guys, you're the responsible party, you & only you............
CR
Ross, yes that would be the point of the plate ...
Perhaps, people would have stayed off the boat. The point is to provide the capacity (in persons and weight) so they can make an informed decision. Same goes for your weight scenerio. I agree that you can't stop people from making poor decisions or behaving badly, but that really isn't what I'm concerned about with respect to the need to provide the plate.
Weinie, the regulations you posted don't apply to boats over 20' in length with respect to capacity markings. I have a 20'- 2" boat that doesn't have a capacity plate and isn't required to have one.
CaptGregg, the operator doesn't seem to have any legal obligation to follow this recommended capacity or even disclose it to the passengers. I agree, he's bound to be going through a lot of agony from his poor judgement, but beyond that, what do you mean?
Perhaps, people would have stayed off the boat. The point is to provide the capacity (in persons and weight) so they can make an informed decision. Same goes for your weight scenerio. I agree that you can't stop people from making poor decisions or behaving badly, but that really isn't what I'm concerned about with respect to the need to provide the plate.
Weinie, the regulations you posted don't apply to boats over 20' in length with respect to capacity markings. I have a 20'- 2" boat that doesn't have a capacity plate and isn't required to have one.
CaptGregg, the operator doesn't seem to have any legal obligation to follow this recommended capacity or even disclose it to the passengers. I agree, he's bound to be going through a lot of agony from his poor judgement, but beyond that, what do you mean?
I'm probably the last person in the world who wants to see additional government intrusion in my life but when it comes to safe boating when you're involving more bodies than just your own, I have to come down on the side of some sort of manditory licensing before you're allowed to take a boat out on the water. I'm not saying something like a full-on CG License (even for just a 6-pack) but at the very minimum I'd like to see something like a manditory Safe Boating Course with a certificate issued at the end of a successful completion.
I don't think this is the entire cure - not by a long shot - but at the very least it would give a potential "skipper" ___some___ sort of appreciation of their responsibility and what not to do.
How many times have we been around the dock when someone takes the helm of a boat for the first time and asks where the brakes are?
Can you imagine a world without the requirement for a driver's license, and then add to that a road that's constantly shifting up/down and undulating without warning?
I don't think this is the entire cure - not by a long shot - but at the very least it would give a potential "skipper" ___some___ sort of appreciation of their responsibility and what not to do.
How many times have we been around the dock when someone takes the helm of a boat for the first time and asks where the brakes are?
Can you imagine a world without the requirement for a driver's license, and then add to that a road that's constantly shifting up/down and undulating without warning?
Scott,
I'm only saying that he ignored all the rules of safety for people under his charge. Hell, he even lost his son. There is nothing sadder. You can hit the books all day long for seamenship, safety etc. etc. but if not practiced, you know the rest.
However, and in this case, his fatal error in sound judgment killed three people. Would YOU wanna go out boating with this guy? Not me.
The reason this happened are on his shoulders alone, it wasn't weather, conditions etc. etc. etc..............he failed as a skipper, prior to throwing the dock lines.
CR
I'm only saying that he ignored all the rules of safety for people under his charge. Hell, he even lost his son. There is nothing sadder. You can hit the books all day long for seamenship, safety etc. etc. but if not practiced, you know the rest.
However, and in this case, his fatal error in sound judgment killed three people. Would YOU wanna go out boating with this guy? Not me.
The reason this happened are on his shoulders alone, it wasn't weather, conditions etc. etc. etc..............he failed as a skipper, prior to throwing the dock lines.
CR
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