Skeg Wobble - Advice Needed

[JDE]

Hello!
Looking at a 1984 Kirie Elite 32 and need some advice. In good condition, needs a little maintenance but on only major concern is the movement of the skeg. As shown in the video, there is about a 3/8-1/2 of movement if you manually push on the skeg. This does not seem right. Looks like a hybrid, spade supported rudder. The questions are:

1. Is the amount of movement normal for this kind of rudder?
2. Is a repair in order?
3. Can it be repaired as a DIY project if necessary? If so, what is the recommendations?

Any help is appreciated. I will try to post a video.

video link:

IMG_2388.mov

drive.google.com

 

[capta]

Doesn't look very good to me, but I've never encountered anything like that before.

 

[jssailem]

questions are:

1. Is the amount of movement normal for this kind of rudder?
Unknown. Would want to have look on the inside. Is the flex due to inner lack of support for the hull where the skeg attaches.
2. Is a repair in order?
Could be. Two possible issues come to mind. The inner bracing of the hull may have been weakened. ie: tabbing broken loose or never properly secured. Hull is thin in the area of the skeg and what you see is hull flex. You may be able to add supports to eliminate hull flex.
On the other hand the internal connections in the skeg may have broken. To find answer would need to inspect inside of hull.
Answer may depend on way you plan to use the boat. Racing in open Ocean Most definitely repair required.
3. Can it be repaired as a DIY project if necessary? If so, what is the recommendations?
Ha. Anything can be repaired based on skills, patience, and money.
How to go about it would depend on examination of the internal area structure where the skeg is attached. I suspect the inner bracings are not adequate to support the skeg and rudder.

Best of luck.

 

[dlochner]

Mostly what @jssailem said.

There are a couple of issues, the skeg supports the rudder, so lateral movement is not good, there is a lot of pressure on the skeg. The rudder bearings may also need replacing. Together the skeg and rudder should not have any play in them.

Yes, it should be repaired.

Anything can be DIY if you have the skills and tools. How big a job this might be won't be known until the bottom paint is removed and the hull inspected. One thing you can do is to sound the hull with a hammer or screwdriver handle. As you tap along the skeg, the sound should be sharp and clear. If you get dull sounds or thuds, the glass may be delaminated or cracked. Inspection from inside the boat is also warranted.

This is probably a boat you'll want to walk away from unless you are looking for a potentially large project with unknown costs.

 

[JDE]

Flexing of the hull due to inadequate interior support makes sense as there are no visible exterior cracks that are noticeable while moving the skeg. One of the things I am trying to understand is the anatomy and structure of the skeg and skeg design in general. Is it solid fiberglass or fiberglass over a core like a rudder? Is it bolted to the hull similar to the keel? What should the interior of the hull at the skeg location look like? We did not get to see the interior of the hull but we did locate the access panel. Need to see this area next.

Also, the design looks to be a hybrid. Perhaps it’s a spade rudder that also attaches to a skeg. It’s not structurally hung off the skeg like some I’ve seen. Wondering if the post takes most of the load like a spade rudder and the skeg connection is secondary.

Is there normally lateral movement with spade rudders? Could be play in the post bearings/bushings? The boat is in South Dakota and finding local expert advice is not happening. Any help in understanding this issue is appreciated.

 

[JDE]

It’s too bad, I really like the boat. Includes a lot of nice details expected in a French racer- cruiser. Also has new sails, newer engine, new rigging, nice interior details, etc. but this all means nothing but if your skeg shears off.

At this point we’re trying to understand how much of a problem this is and what a repair would involve. I’m used to repairing smaller boats with transom hung rudders.
Inspecting the hull around the skeg to listen for damage is a good suggestion.

 

[dlochner]

The skeg was likely part of the mold when the hull was laid up and not bolted or glassed in later. Taking a look through the inspection port will give you a better idea.

It is likely constructed in the same manner as the hull, so if the hull is cored, that will cored too. However, the space is pretty tight, so I'm guessing it is only fiberglass.

The semi-spade rudder on this boat is mid way in the rudder design evolution from full rudders hung of off full keels to the modern spade rudder. The skeg provides lateral support and helps to improve tracking by sort of extending the keel. Having the rudder supported in three places, upper bearing, lower bearing and the skeg distributes the load over a larger area and probably allows for a smaller lighter (less costly) rudder post.

There should not be any lateral movement with a spade rudder. If there is lateral movement, the rudder bearings are worn and need replacement.

I seem to recall a series of articles in either Sailing Magazine or Good Old Boat Magazine about rudder design and keel design. finding them might be helpful.

 

[Spindrift NH]

It’s a short video but it looked to me that the play in the rudder is in the bearing. As you pull on it you’re moving the whole boat, can see the hull moving as you pull/push, so at first glance it looks like movement in the keg. Looking closer you can see the rudder moving about 1/8” in relation to the keg right at the bottom bearing.

 

[Spindrift NH]

Well, looking again I guess it does look like some flex in the skeg

 

[dLj]

The Skeg should not be moving - as stated above.

How big a job? Well, can you look inside the boat where the skeg is hung and take another video in there showing where that movement translates inside? That may help figure that out.

My first impression is it's a big job. Drop rudder, cut out existing skeg connection to hull, see where the structural inadequacy lies, rebuild so there is no structural inadequacy. There may be other ways around it depending upon what you see inside, but my first guess is you have a lot of structural glass work to do. Are you prepared to do that?

dj

 

[JDE]

I think I could work up to doing the repair myself. Never done a fiberglass repair to this extent. Requires a fair bit of research and planning. I’ve been in similar circumstances on other projects and it’s turned out fine. I often say I enjoying fixing boats as much as I like sailing them so I’m up for the challenge. I have demonstrated considerable construction/fabrication skill on other projects.

I believe the collective opinion is that the movement is not normal or to be expected and likely flexing of the hull and skeg and will require both interior and exterior support and strengthening. This will involve a lot of grinding on the exterior to layup new fiberglass. The interior design/structure may need to be cut back and reconstructed or strengthened.

Would like to hear from someone who has undertaken a job like this or see some documentation if such a job if available.

Thanks for all the help here.

 

[dLj]

I've done similar work, but I don't have any videos. Here's a video from Sailing Uma where they rebuilt the front of their keel. A lot of what they did here you'll have to do in the skeg, adjusted of course to what it needs.

There was a guy here that posted a few years ago on rebuilding a trimaran he had which was excellently done but I'd have to go look for it.
Maybe someone has some better references.

dj

 

[kloudie1]

JDE, In your movie, it looks like the skeg is flexing along a 45 degree (up and aft) line..from the skeg cusp line.. some discoloration can be seen along that line (dampness?); they look like filler that hasn't cracked (yet) from the flex.. The inspection port should give you a good idea .. if you see bolts, kinda like keel bolts but smaller, ya may have some crevice corrosion on the bolts (replace, big job) or simply loose nuts that need to be tightened.. Because the rudder is "balanced", there is a good bit of lateral force on that bottom skeg bearing.. Investigate carefully.. get a quote on the repair..
EDIT: attached is a picture of a bottom skeg bolt from my buddy's Tartan 37.. You can see that the crevice corrosion has eaten half way through the shank right under the head.. It was loose, but until we removed it, it was a mystery why..

 

[NYSail]

If it move like that with just you pulling imagine when you are sailing in a stiff breeze. Don’t think it should be loving at all. Point of skeg is support and to protect rudder.

 

[JDE]

Yes I’ve noticed a similar line of weakness in the skeg and suspected some repair work had been performed. When the light hits it just right you can see an arc. That would seem to be the natural place for stress cracking to occur.

We do have a copy of a marine survey from 2012 and there was no indication or mention of the skeg only some slight delamination on the rudder which was subsequently addressed but needs further attention. This survey is by no means conclusive but an interesting data point.

So it’s possible there are skeg bolts. Really need to see the inside.

The sailing ulma video is a good visual on what should be expected (half the video is unrelated unfortunately). Not rocket science but a focused commitment.

 

[dLj]

If you do have bolts that need replacing, I'd recommend bolts made from 17-4 PH stainless steel. Here's a link to McMaster Carr where they carry them. You may be able to find other sources.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

This is a better material for bolts in this area than the 316 bolts often used.

dj

 

[shemandr]

Not all skegs are needed. A friend who had a new Seafarer 23 took a sawz all to his skeg and removed it and the rudder. He then made a transom mounted rudder and opened a hole in the transom for the tiller. He sailed the boat for the next 30+ years. If your transom is pretty vertical it may be that is a faster, cheaper and performance enhanced alternative. I'm thinking there is no wood core in that skeg. A pilot hole could tell a lot.

 

[JDE]

Well that’s a creative solution and one I’ll consider. The transom is angled forward quite a bit. I’m sure there is a word for that.

 

[dlochner]

Well that’s a creative solution and one I’ll consider. The transom is angled forward quite a bit. I’m sure there is a word for that.

It is called a reverse transom.

Adding a tiller or transom hung rudder off the back of a 32 foot boat with a reverse transom will take some engineering and more work, money and time than rebuilding the skeg.

 

[FastOlson]

In a crowded world of used sailboats, many better built than an "Elite", you should keep on looking. It might take some time, but we still recall the fun (at least initially) of our year of driving around looking at used boats.

Finally found a great boat and still have it, but by the end of that "traveling and sightseeing" year .... we were *ready* to buy something! And then, the universe shifted slightly, a new day dawned, and the right boat appeared.
That was in 1994, and we still have that boat.

Happy Shopping!!!