Sails, materials, designs - so many questions

[dLj]

I'm embarking on the quest to find the "best" sails for my boat. While I realize no one is on my boat so it will not be possible to really address some aspects of what I'm facing, I will try to explain things as best I can. There are numerous different materials now being used for sails from the original Dacron through one piece laminated sails, cuts and more. I welcome all comments on these options.

My boat is a cruising boat, very comfortable doing long off-shore passages. I will likely be doing some longer sails than just weekend sailing. I would really love to go back north to sail Maine, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland as I find those regions to be great destinations. I may coastal hop from the Chesapeake where I keep my boat either going North or coming back south, possibly both directions. Or more likely just do at least one of the legs pretty much straight through. The last time I went to Nova Scotia I did it in one hop - Chesapeake to Nova Scotia. It was only about a 5 or 6 day sail. I will also do day sails around the Chesapeake, so its not all long sails. Complication...

My boat is a cutter rigged mast head sloop. All sails are on roller furlers. My main sail is a boom roller furler. I don't need to hear about the pros and cons of that system, it's what I've got. I'm keeping it. I do have question on foresails. More later.

I likely don't need to change my staysail, but thoughts on staysail material would be of interest.

I likely need to replace my main sail. I really beat it up. The top 25 to 30 percent of that sail is stretched out making furling difficult. I blew a big hole in it that I had to patch. Thoughts on main sail materials especially with roller furling in mind would be most welcome.

My foresail is a high cut Yankee. It's a really nice sail and drives my boat very well. It balances really well running wing-on-wing with my main sail and except in really light air, drives the boat well at all points of sail. How does one evaluate if that sail needs changing? What materials would be recommended for a new one? If I did have to change it, thoughts on any other sail? It can't be much larger given I'm almost at the limit of what that furler can handle. My furler has two slots. I could conceivably get two sails made such that I could fold them both out for running down wind. An interesting thought - in that case I believe one would want to go to laminate sails so when not opened for downwind sailing, the shape would be better on other points of sail. Any thoughts on that kind of setup are most welcome.

I am looking for a better light air setup. I'm not sure how to go about that. I've plenty of halyards, but limited deck space for attachments. My current forestay is right at the end of my bow sprit. If folks want photos, I'll be back down at my boat in about a week and can take photos then.

Anyway, I hope that's enough food for thought. I welcome thoughts, suggestions and information.

dj

 

[FastOlson]

Is this your design: BELLIURE 41 (IBOLD) - sailboatdata
??

 

[dLj]

Is this your design: BELLIURE 41 (IBOLD) - sailboatdata
??

That's correct.

dj

p.s. don't look at the photo - that's the Belliure 50 (or maybe 60) center cockpit. No idea why they put it with the 41. However all the data and interior layout shown is spot on.

 

[Will Gilmore]

My foresail is a high cut Yankee. It's a really nice sail and drives my boat very well. It balances really well running wing-on-wing with my main sail and except in really light air, drives the boat well at all points of sail.

It sounds like you shouldn't change too much. The sail you have, other than the patch and wear, seems to be exactly what you want. If that is regular dacron, then calculate if a more expensive sail material is actually going to give you longer use, or I wouldn't say more expensive is better.

I am looking for a better light air setup. I'm not sure how to go about that. I've plenty of halyards, but limited deck space for attachments. My current forestay is right at the end of my bow sprit

The new, sails may be all you need for better pointing in light air. But maybe a deck sweeper for a headsail will grab a little more air.

-Will

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

Here are my thoughts:
Mainsail - A cross cut Dacron sail will be your lowest cost option. The benefits of Dacron are lowest purchase price and longest lifespan for the material. The disadvantage of Dacron is that it is 'stretchy' and will lose it's designed in shape relatively soon. Once the sails has been stretched or 'blown out' the sailing performance will suffer. You won't be able to point as high and the boat will heel more. A Triradial Dacron sail will hold it's performance longer while a laminate / high tech sail will cost more money but will hold it's shape for a long time, ultimately until the sail fails.

In my experience a laminate sail will last 5-7 years and dacron 10+ years, but the last 5 years will have degraded performance.

For your headsails - how important is pointing to you? A new sail will allow you to point higher and sail with less heel. If you don't value pointing performance, or you usually motor sail upwind, then there isn't much value (IMHO) in buying new sails or going to laminate sails.

For off the wind performance / light air performance, most boats are going to asymmetric / free flying / code 0 type sails, usually on a furler, sometimes with a sock. This would be set at the end of your bowsprint. A sail like this will allow you to sail in conditions that would normally require you to motor.

UK Sails has a nice web site with lots of good information, descriptions, etc. I had a set of UK Sails on one of my boats. I was happy with them. I've also had Doyle, Quantum and now my favorite it One Sails, but only because I really like the sailmaker.

UK Sailmakers - Cruising and Racing - Sail with Confidence!

UK Sailmakers is one of the world’s most established groups of sailmakers with nearly 50 lofts and service centers. Our cruising and racing sails...

www.uksailmakers.com

Cruising

www.quantumsails.com

Good luck!

Barry

 

[dLj]

It sounds like you shouldn't change too much. The sail you have, other than the patch and wear, seems to be exactly what you want. If that is regular dacron, then calculate if a more expensive sail material is actually going to give you longer use, or I wouldn't say more expensive is better.

The new, sails may be all you need for better pointing in light air. But maybe a deck sweeper for a headsail will grab a little more air.

-Will

I don't actually know what material my sails are currently made from. That's a area I could use to improve my knowledge in. I know it's not a laminate... I need to learn how to tell what these sail materials are by looking at them. Unless the fabric is worn, I've no idea how to tell if a foresail needs replacing. I do know how to look at a mainsail for that, and my current main sail is stretched in the top section along with the large patch I had to do...

Thanks for the input.

dj

 

[colemj]

A Triradial Dacron sail will hold it's performance longer while a laminate / high tech sail will cost more money but will hold it's shape for a long time, ultimately until the sail fails.

There are a couple of other choices - radial Hydranet and its equivalence from other manufacturers, and 3Di. The radial Hydranet will hold shape longer than crosscut dacron or triradial dacron, with a similar overall lifespan, and 3Di will both hold its shape and last longer than all other choices.

Mark

 

[colemj]

I don't actually know what material my sails are currently made from. That's a area I could use to improve my knowledge in. I know it's not a laminate... I need to learn how to tell what these sail materials are by looking at them. Unless the fabric is worn, I've no idea how to tell if a foresail needs replacing. I do know how to look at a mainsail for that, and my current main sail is stretched in the top section along with the large patch I had to do...

Thanks for the input.

dj

If it's not a laminate, and you have had them for many years, they are almost certainly woven dacron. There weren't many other choices until more recently.

A sailmaker or experienced racer friend could tell you a lot about your existing sails. Shouldn't be too hard to find either in Annapolis for a short sail to check them out.

Mark

 

[dLj]

Hello,

Here are my thoughts:
Mainsail - A cross cut Dacron sail will be your lowest cost option. The benefits of Dacron are lowest purchase price and longest lifespan for the material. The disadvantage of Dacron is that it is 'stretchy' and will lose it's designed in shape relatively soon. Once the sails has been stretched or 'blown out' the sailing performance will suffer. You won't be able to point as high and the boat will heel more. A Triradial Dacron sail will hold it's performance longer while a laminate / high tech sail will cost more money but will hold it's shape for a long time, ultimately until the sail fails.

In my experience a laminate sail will last 5-7 years and dacron 10+ years, but the last 5 years will have degraded performance.

The stretchy part for my main sail is a problem. Since I have a boom roller furler, a stretched out sail does not furl well. So I have that double function to consider. My foresails, not so much. Those still seem to roll up well. Of course, I don't really know if my foresails have stretched as I don't know how to tell that on a foresail, only the main sail...

For your headsails - how important is pointing to you? A new sail will allow you to point higher and sail with less heel. If you don't value pointing performance, or you usually motor sail upwind, then there isn't much value (IMHO) in buying new sails or going to laminate sails.

I do like to sail. While I'm not what one would consider a "purist" - as in, if I need to motor sail I will, but I sure do like a nice performing set of sails!

For off the wind performance / light air performance, most boats are going to asymmetric / free flying / code 0 type sails, usually on a furler, sometimes with a sock. This would be set at the end of your bowsprint. A sail like this will allow you to sail in conditions that would normally require you to motor.

I'm very interested in the asymetric, code 0 type sails, but as you say they need a set point on the end of my bow sprit. That would be a real problem as I have no room there to attach. I just realized I have a photo of my bow sprit I took after rebuilding it before the trip. I've no room there for further attachments...

UK Sails has a nice web site with lots of good information, descriptions, etc. I had a set of UK Sails on one of my boats. I was happy with them. I've also had Doyle, Quantum and now my favorite it One Sails, but only because I really like the sailmaker.

UK Sailmakers - Cruising and Racing - Sail with Confidence!

UK Sailmakers is one of the world’s most established groups of sailmakers with nearly 50 lofts and service centers. Our cruising and racing sails...

www.uksailmakers.com

Cruising

www.quantumsails.com

Good luck!

Barry

Thanks for the links - I'll dig through them.

dj

 

[dLj]

There are a couple of other choices - radial Hydranet and its equivalence from other manufacturers, and 3Di. The radial Hydranet will hold shape longer than crosscut dacron or triradial dacron, with a similar overall lifespan, and 3Di will both hold its shape and last longer than all other choices.

Mark

I've heard about these. I've also heard some mixed reviews of the 3Di. Do you have any direct experience with these materials?

dj

 

[dLj]

If it's not a laminate, and you have had them for many years, they are almost certainly woven dacron. There weren't many other choices until more recently.

A sailmaker or experienced racer friend could tell you a lot about your existing sails. Shouldn't be too hard to find either in Annapolis for a short sail to check them out.

Mark

Do you know the dates? My sails aren't tremendously old, but I'd have to look up when they were put on. The PO put them on the boat. He did use very good quality material at the time, but not sure right now exactly how old they are. As I've only seen laminate sails from afar, as in on someone else's boat sailing, I don't know what the material looks like in the hand...

The problem with my main sail is I ran it through a hurricane and then blew a major hole in it with a pole... rather unhappy day... But it has had very hard work at this point and likely needs changing out. I have had someone tell me I could resew the stretched out portion and put a good patch (not one done in the middle of the ocean) on the hole... I'm not sure that will be really the best solution. When I get prices, I may change that point of view...

dj

 

[dlochner]

I've also heard some mixed reviews of the 3Di. Do you have any direct experience with these materials?

A couple of friends have 3Di sails, they love the shape and how well the sail holds it shape. However, it is a very stiff sail and difficult to stow. I'm not sure they would work on a boom furler.

There are all kinds of laminate sails. The big advantage of triradial cut sails with a laminate cloth is the yarns can be oriented along load paths. This allows the sail to hold its shape better and for longer. Cross-cut Dacron sails can't do this, which leads to the stretch and bellying common on older sails.

Laminates with exotic fibers are expensive and not really suited for sailing oceans unless the owner has a large budget. Contender makes a dacron laminate that has the best both worlds, yarns are aligned along load paths and dacron is less expensive than the exotics, like carbon fiber. It is the fabric we used for our sails, if I remember correctly, in 7oz and 9oz weights. The heavier weight cloth is in the high stress areas, the lighter cloth in low stress areas.

Cross cut sails are easier and less expensive to build and for many people it is good enough. Triradial sails are more complex to build and thus more expensive. However, some of that cost is offset in a longer useable life span. Triradial cuts can also be designed and built to be more efficient than cross cuts.

From your description of the mainsail, it is time to make beach bags from the cloth. A good loft can hang the sails and inspect them. Hanging them horizontally will allow the sailmaker to better see and measure any stretch or sag.

The sails you use the most are the ones that will need replacing first. For ocean sailing I'd go with the high cut yankee instead of a deck sweeper genoa. It will be easier to tack, affords better visibility, and doesn't capture waves that go over the deck.

The sail I wish I had, but it is simply not in the budget is an asymmetrical spinnaker on furler. It would be perfect for those days when the wind is at 160-170° and at 12 knots or less. On our trip down the east coast we had many of those days and we needed to make miles. In those conditions a 135° genoa and main ain't gonna cut it. You have the bowsprit already, it would be a great addition to your inventory. (I like spending other people's money. )

 

[dLj]

A couple of friends have 3Di sails, they love the shape and how well the sail holds it shape. However, it is a very stiff sail and difficult to stow. I'm not sure they would work on a boom furler.

There are all kinds of laminate sails. The big advantage of triradial cut sails with a laminate cloth is the yarns can be oriented along load paths. This allows the sail to hold its shape better and for longer. Cross-cut Dacron sails can't do this, which leads to the stretch and bellying common on older sails.

Laminates with exotic fibers are expensive and not really suited for sailing oceans unless the owner has a large budget. Contender makes a dacron laminate that has the best both worlds, yarns are aligned along load paths and dacron is less expensive than the exotics, like carbon fiber. It is the fabric we used for our sails, if I remember correctly, in 7oz and 9oz weights. The heavier weight cloth is in the high stress areas, the lighter cloth in low stress areas.

Cross cut sails are easier and less expensive to build and for many people it is good enough. Triradial sails are more complex to build and thus more expensive. However, some of that cost is offset in a longer useable life span. Triradial cuts can also be designed and built to be more efficient than cross cuts.

From your description of the mainsail, it is time to make beach bags from the cloth. A good loft can hang the sails and inspect them. Hanging them horizontally will allow the sailmaker to better see and measure any stretch or sag.

The sails you use the most are the ones that will need replacing first. For ocean sailing I'd go with the high cut yankee instead of a deck sweeper genoa. It will be easier to tack, affords better visibility, and doesn't capture waves that go over the deck.

The sail I wish I had, but it is simply not in the budget is an asymmetrical spinnaker on furler. It would be perfect for those days when the wind is at 160-170° and at 12 knots or less. On our trip down the east coast we had many of those days and we needed to make miles. In those conditions a 135° genoa and main ain't gonna cut it. You have the bowsprit already, it would be a great addition to your inventory. (I like spending other people's money. )

No large budget here... that's for sure... Yes, I am pretty sure there is no saving my current main sail. It's had way too much hard use and abuse... It is going to be a big budget item no matter how it's built. That's a big sail... And it is not a typical main sail given my boom roller furling system...

Did you see the photo of my bow sprit? I don't see any way to put another stay or any kind of additional attachment there. I'm not seeing how I could put an additional asym furler there...

dj

 

[Davidasailor26]

I just went through the process of pricing sails in the fall, and my new main and jib are arriving in the next week or so. We’re replacing cross cut Dacron with Challenge PalmaTec, which is a cruising laminate. It’s made of recycled polyester mixed with just a little dyneema, laminated between protective Dacron taffeta on the outside. This is what that looks like, where I peeled the layers apart to see the inside.

They also make a form with white fibers inside that looks more like a traditional white sail from a distance, but up close it’s still noticeable that it’s not as uniform as plain woven Dacron.

Compared to a regular cross-cut Dacron sail from the same maker this cruising laminate was about 30% more. Supposedly it should have similar usable life to what we got from our original sails (about 10 years), but should hold its original shape for pretty much the whole time without stretching over the years.

I did get a price on 3Di. That would have been about 2.2 times the price of cross-cut Dacron. I couldn’t justify that premium personally.

If you don’t already have a sailmaker in mind let me know and I’ll give you my thoughts from my experience getting quotes from around Annapolis. I ended up using Chesapeake Sailmakers as I’ve used them before for repairs and been very happy with his quality. For new sails all the actual construction is offshore so it’s not like it’s his handy work. I’m sure I’ll have more thoughts on the quality of his suppliers once mine come in soon.

 

[dlochner]

For new sails all the actual construction is offshore so it’s not like it’s his handy work.

The offshore lofts often work with several different smaller lofts. The advantage to using a smaller loft is you're not paying for the franchise fees and advertising that go along with with a Quantuum, Doyle, or other name brand. I think North is big enough that it has its own offshore lofts.

The one loft that might still make its own sails in house is Mack Sails in Stuart Florida. That could make a significant difference with the tariffs in place now.

 

[dLj]

I just went through the process of pricing sails in the fall, and my new main and jib are arriving in the next week or so. We’re replacing cross cut Dacron with Challenge PalmaTec, which is a cruising laminate. It’s made of recycled polyester mixed with just a little dyneema, laminated between protective Dacron taffeta on the outside. This is what that looks like, where I peeled the layers apart to see the inside.
View attachment 230830

They also make a form with white fibers inside that looks more like a traditional white sail from a distance, but up close it’s still noticeable that it’s not as uniform as plain woven Dacron.

Compared to a regular cross-cut Dacron sail from the same maker this cruising laminate was about 30% more. Supposedly it should have similar usable life to what we got from our original sails (about 10 years), but should hold its original shape for pretty much the whole time without stretching over the years.

I did get a price on 3Di. That would have been about 2.2 times the price of cross-cut Dacron. I couldn’t justify that premium personally.

If you don’t already have a sailmaker in mind let me know and I’ll give you my thoughts from my experience getting quotes from around Annapolis. I ended up using Chesapeake Sailmakers as I’ve used them before for repairs and been very happy with his quality. For new sails all the actual construction is offshore so it’s not like it’s his handy work. I’m sure I’ll have more thoughts on the quality of his suppliers once mine come in soon.

Love that photo! I definitely do not have laminate sails... Are you up north on the Chesapeake?

Have you heard of Jenkins Sails?

JENKINS SAILS

I'm going to have John come to my boat to look everything over. I am not at all opposed to getting two or three estimates..

dj

 

[colemj]

I've heard about these. I've also heard some mixed reviews of the 3Di. Do you have any direct experience with these materials?

dj

We have had 3Di Endurance sails (dyneema and kevlar) for the past 5yrs. 3Di is really only the manufacturing process and type of sail, and doesn't fully describe any individual sail itself. It incorporates different materials in the different versions. They make versions from 100% dacron, dacron mixed with dyneema, dyneema mixed with kevlar, and several versions with carbon/dyneema/kevlar.

In addition to the above, the different fiber ratios (except pure dacron), and the dpi of the fiber content varies depending on sail size and expected usage. Also, they come with and without an outer "scrim" for further sun and abrasion protection (racing vs cruising).

Any reviews would need to take into account the specific version of 3Di.

The takeaway for your initial questions is that 3Di is not a laminate and won't delaminate or fail in the way a laminate will. Laminates will fail, but will hold their shape right up to the point of failure. They often give no indication of approaching EOL until it occurs. The overall lifespan of a laminate will be a lot shorter than what is considered normal for woven dacron, but I don't understand people's logic with woven dacron. They will tell me their sail is old but still good with lots of life, when I see a totally bagged out dishcloth on a stick. There is a reason that when people replace their laminate sails with new ones, they aren't very excited, just happy to be sailing again, while people who replace their dacron sails are jumping around saying "holy cow this is a brand new boat now!". It's because they don't realize their dacron sail became a bedsheet 10yrs ago (and likely 2yrs after new), and its "long life" was an illusion caused by lack of material failure.

Laminates and 3Di are great. If one is going cruising, or has a boat that sails well and responds to its sails and will be using it often, I don't see any purpose of woven dacron anymore. Smaller boats, sails that don't experience high forces, and less used boats should probably be the only ones considering woven dacron anymore.

Putting lifetime in terms of sail shape and material failure, dacron will have the shortest in shape and tied with 3Di for longest in material. Laminates will tie with 3Di for longest in shape but shortest in material. 3Di will tie for longest in shape and longest in material.

Of course, there are price considerations for all of the above.

Mark

 

[dLj]

The offshore lofts often work with several different smaller lofts. The advantage to using a smaller loft is you're not paying for the franchise fees and advertising that go along with with a Quantuum, Doyle, or other name brand. I think North is big enough that it has its own offshore lofts.

The one loft that might still make its own sails in house is Mack Sails in Stuart Florida. That could make a significant difference with the tariffs in place now.

Hmm, I wonder what Jenkins uses. But he's been in business a long time. I'm sure he knows the best ways to go...

I would hesitate to use anyone that does not come to the boat to measure. Especially with the sail setups I have...

dj

 

[dLj]

We have had 3Di Endurance sails (dyneema and kevlar) for the past 5yrs. 3Di is really only the manufacturing process and type of sail, and doesn't fully describe any individual sail itself. It incorporates different materials in the different versions. They make versions from 100% dacron, dacron mixed with dyneema, dyneema mixed with kevlar, and several versions with carbon/dyneema/kevlar.

In addition to the above, the different fiber ratios (except pure dacron), and the dpi of the fiber content varies depending on sail size and expected usage. Also, they come with and without an outer "scrim" for further sun and abrasion protection (racing vs cruising).

Any reviews would need to take into account the specific version of 3Di.

The takeaway for your initial questions is that 3Di is not a laminate and won't delaminate or fail in the way a laminate will. Laminates will fail, but will hold their shape right up to the point of failure. They often give no indication of approaching EOL until it occurs. The overall lifespan of a laminate will be a lot shorter than what is considered normal for woven dacron, but I don't understand people's logic with woven dacron. They will tell me their sail is old but still good with lots of life, when I see a totally bagged out dishcloth on a stick. There is a reason that when people replace their laminate sails with new ones, they aren't very excited, just happy to be sailing again, while people who replace their dacron sails are jumping around saying "holy cow this is a brand new boat now!". It's because they don't realize their dacron sail became a bedsheet 10yrs ago (and likely 2yrs after new), and its "long life" was an illusion caused by lack of material failure.

Laminates and 3Di are great. If one is going cruising, or has a boat that sails well and responds to its sails and will be using it often, I don't see any purpose of woven dacron anymore. Smaller boats, sails that don't experience high forces, and less used boats should probably be the only ones considering woven dacron anymore.

Putting lifetime in terms of sail shape and material failure, dacron will have the shortest in shape and tied with 3Di for longest in material. Laminates will tie with 3Di for longest in shape but shortest in material. 3Di will tie for longest in shape and longest in material.

Of course, there are price considerations for all of the above.

Mark

What kind of main sail are you runnning? Furling? Non-furling?

dj

 

[colemj]

A couple of friends have 3Di sails, they love the shape and how well the sail holds it shape. However, it is a very stiff sail and difficult to stow. I'm not sure they would work on a boom furler.

There are all kinds of laminate sails. The big advantage of triradial cut sails with a laminate cloth is the yarns can be oriented along load paths. This allows the sail to hold its shape better and for longer. Cross-cut Dacron sails can't do this, which leads to the stretch and bellying common on older sails.

Laminates with exotic fibers are expensive and not really suited for sailing oceans unless the owner has a large budget. Contender makes a dacron laminate that has the best both worlds, yarns are aligned along load paths and dacron is less expensive than the exotics, like carbon fiber. It is the fabric we used for our sails, if I remember correctly, in 7oz and 9oz weights. The heavier weight cloth is in the high stress areas, the lighter cloth in low stress areas.

3Di starts stiff, but quickly becomes softer. The stiffness is in folding into flakes, as they are very pliable when rolled. I've got some high DPI count 3Di material on a 1" cardboard roll, and it could be rolled around a 1/2" dowel with no problem. A stiff sail is actually better for a boom furler than a soft sail.

Contender and Dimension-Polyant make radial dacron now with a crimpless warp. There may be others. This allows a tri-radial design with the uncrimped fibers oriented correctly. If going with dacron, this type would be my choice.

North also makes 3Di in a pure dacron version with fibers oriented on load paths and fiber density varied as needed, but no mylar holding it all together. It is 70% fiber content.

Mark