Sails, materials, designs - so many questions
- Thread starter dLj
- Start date
I have short lines along the foot that I've interpreted as reef marks. I've got tell tails. But I'm not sure what draft stripes are?
dj
He means something that runs perpendicular to the luff so you can tell its shape, like seams or colored panels.
-Will
-Will
Do you use these along with tell tails? Are they an additional way to check sail set?
I have multiple levels of tell tails..
dj
p.s. would you also put them in the main sail?
Tell tales show how the air is flowing over the sails. Draft stripes show you the shape of the sail. The two allow you to fine tune the sail trim. In some conditions the boat will sail best with very flat sails, in other conditions the sail needs to be fuller. On the jib this is controlled by car position, sheet tension, and halyard tension.
The wind at the mast head is at a different angle from the wind at the boom. The tell tales at different levels show this and help tune the twist of the sail and the wind over that twist.
Yes, put them on the main too.
The wind at the mast head is at a different angle from the wind at the boom. The tell tales at different levels show this and help tune the twist of the sail and the wind over that twist.
Yes, put them on the main too.
To try to answer dLj's question about how to tell if a sail is worn out. I would say there two areas to look at. One is the sail material itself. The other is the shape.
Each material would have its own wear characteristics. To simplify lets just talk about the Hood Vektron sails dJl has. If the material itself has become soft or supple it means that the resin is wearing out. It may be due to UV or just flogging over the years but the cloth itself is worn. Not so bad in low stress areas but deadly in the stressed areas because the shape of the sail is compromised - stretched and no longer resistant to hold a shape with a gust of wind. Of course outright losing of stretching or raised seams and repair patches would tell the sail is tired.
As far as shape the older sail tends to let the draft move aft and increases the cord depth as the sail cloth becomes soft. And then in more wind it gets worse. Draft aft shapes aren't going to go up wind very well. For a while, in the woven cloth arena, you can drag the draft forward with halyard tension, flatten the sail with outhaul, vang but eventually those controls don't work anymore. And there's twist - a necessary component of shape but if you can't close the leech of a sail it isn't drawing like it should. This is what is great about tell tales. You can actually visualize the air flow over the sail to see if you are still getting attached flow or if you are not - which is stall.
Draft stripes are useful to evaluate the shape of a sail but not necessary. They are typically on performance sails because the nuances of sail trim are easier to sort out with them. You can photograph your sails and learn a lot even without stripes.
Then there's the question of how weatherly a cursing boat needs to be. I would more than is generally thought. There's always trying to avoid a lee shore, or trying to make a headland, other feature or sailing against current. Who wants to do more tacks?
I hope this helps.
Each material would have its own wear characteristics. To simplify lets just talk about the Hood Vektron sails dJl has. If the material itself has become soft or supple it means that the resin is wearing out. It may be due to UV or just flogging over the years but the cloth itself is worn. Not so bad in low stress areas but deadly in the stressed areas because the shape of the sail is compromised - stretched and no longer resistant to hold a shape with a gust of wind. Of course outright losing of stretching or raised seams and repair patches would tell the sail is tired.
As far as shape the older sail tends to let the draft move aft and increases the cord depth as the sail cloth becomes soft. And then in more wind it gets worse. Draft aft shapes aren't going to go up wind very well. For a while, in the woven cloth arena, you can drag the draft forward with halyard tension, flatten the sail with outhaul, vang but eventually those controls don't work anymore. And there's twist - a necessary component of shape but if you can't close the leech of a sail it isn't drawing like it should. This is what is great about tell tales. You can actually visualize the air flow over the sail to see if you are still getting attached flow or if you are not - which is stall.
Draft stripes are useful to evaluate the shape of a sail but not necessary. They are typically on performance sails because the nuances of sail trim are easier to sort out with them. You can photograph your sails and learn a lot even without stripes.
Then there's the question of how weatherly a cursing boat needs to be. I would more than is generally thought. There's always trying to avoid a lee shore, or trying to make a headland, other feature or sailing against current. Who wants to do more tacks?
I hope this helps.
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Of course you do....... I will not argue that it is 90's technology. But it appeared dlj was overwhelmed by sailing's new tech complexity and how it could relate to the plans he has for his 80s 90s era boat.. The recommendation was not made to a seasoned sailor with your level of expertise. They've aready read it.. I recommended the book to an aspiring long range cruiser that is confused by all the technology and its related jargon prevalent today. I stand by my recommendation.
@Joe obviously I agree it would be a useful book. I ordered it. It should be here later today.
I've often found a lot of earlier writings cover the fundamentals better than more recent books that mix marketing into their content. Those fundamentals still apply to modern materials.
Sail making is still an area of sailing that I don't understand at a level I would prefer to have. I appreciate your recommendation. It's one of the beauties of asking questions to a large group. Some members have much more knowledge than I have in certain areas. There was a saying that I learned in the corporate world, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with a group."
dj
I didn't have that experience with 3Di. North Sails was the most expensive of my options at the time (for a light air headsail) and the lifespan of the sail was disappointing. I've heard good things about Hydranet, and had good experience with UK laminated tape-drive sails. The UK sails had great shape but the externally applied carbon-fiber tapes they used became the first items to delaminate (they reapplied them using clear tape at maintenance time). Still, those tape drive laminated sails lasted 10 years and never lost their shape.
I think it's important to either have a local sailmaker measure your specific boat (on site) or send them your old sails for measurement. There's greater risk of things going sideways if they rely on published specs for your boat or customer-supplied measurements.
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Going to take a different "tack" on this subject. I believe that I will stick to OEM sails when I replace mine. Just coastal cruising and not interested in performance / racing. Beneteau constructed a few hundred boats like mine in USA & Europe. Beneteau, US Spars, & Neil Pryde collaborated on design & worked thru issues with in mast furling over the years on these boats. I doubt if a local loft would have the knowledge base & experience as compared to Neil Pryde. Case in point, when I purchased my boat it was five years old; was having problems furling & unfurling the main. Tried all the usual tricks without success. I felt that part of the problem was hangups with the vertical battens. Spoke to a Neil Pryde loft in Houston & he advised that they changed the batten pocket design by eliminating the old velcro retention method & also converted to a thinner batten. They modified the sail for a very reasonable cost & problem solved. I doubt that a local loft would have that knowledge. No doubt that my main is developing sag & will require replacement soon, to facilitate furling.
@BigEasy do you know what sail material is used on your sails?
For your boat I would agree with your plan. I can't really do this on my boat. There is no "body of knowledge" available for either my boat or the sail systems - well at least the main sail for sure. My boat is rare, my main sail system even rarer.
I was talking with an expert in the field and he told me that he was pretty sure there were less than 200 systems like mine ever built - worldwide...
I consider myself extremely lucky in that there was another boat in my marina that had my same system that they removed to go to a more traditional main sail system. They gave me all the parts they took off... So I have a nearly complete set of replacement parts for my roller furler system. Hence, I'm keeping it. It also works really well under conditions I never thought would work.
But it makes my main sail kind of a unicorn...
dj
I don't think any externally applied tape would work well in my main sail. The abrasion furling and unfurling would be very detrimental to it's lifespan.
Have you used Hydranet?
Yes, having a sailmaker at my boat is going to happen. And I don't think there is any other way with anything beyond a standard production type boat...
dj
p.s. Hydranet is by Quantum Sails - they are who bought out Hood sails - the sails I currently have on m boat. If the Hydranet is anything like my current sails - other then they are now old and very abused - I really have to say they did a heck of a good job!
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An additional benefit of having the sailmaker to the boat is to locate spreader patches, and stanchion chafe guards where needed, you also need to plan UV protection , barren and reef points. Other options are an insignia and sail number.
Oh yeah, forgot - I also have a patch on my sail where it likes to ride on one of my spreaders... Just another check mark on the "I need a new main sail"...
No stanchion chafe guards need with a high cut yankee - another of it's advantages.
As all sails are on furlers, none need reef points. Although marking out reefing dimensions on my foresail is quite handy.
Question - never heard the term "barren" (in the context of reef points) - what does that mean?
dj