Sails, materials, designs - so many questions
- Thread starter dLj
- Start date
Yes, get them measured by the sailmaker! This is the only way to prevent issues and to get it exactly right in the end. Very important!
If they say they've made lots of sails for your type of boat and don't need to measure, then walk away. Little seemingly insignificant things can make a big difference in the end.
Mark
I'm all the way north on the Chesapeake, in Havre de Grace. I don't know anything about Jenkins Sails. Sounds like they're on the Eastern Shore; I focused on ones in the Annapolis area and just haven't heard about Jenkins. Looks interesting though. I'm definitely in favor of having someone that will come to the boat, measure it, and take the time to talk to you about what you want.
If you're serious about learning what sails are best for your boat.......you need to first read this book.
The Art and Science of Sails
Whidden's book was first published in 1990, this is the one you should acquire not the newer edition. AFIK it is only available as a used item but I found it on Amazon for under $9.00. Anyway, I consider the original to be an important, fundamental reference in every sailors' library. Despite its age, iit is still the most relevant and understandable book on sails. I have the second version also and it has a lot of glossy photos... but it is essentially an advertisement for North Sails with very little real life referencing or instruction. Trust me, the original will be the best nine bucks you've ever spent on sailing.
If you don't know who Tom Whidden is.... that is also an important reason for reading it. Afterwards, you will be much, much wiser... I also suggest going through your original post after you've finished reading this sailing bible. You'll find yourself making corrections, organizing your priorities and making sense of what you really want with your sail decisions.
Book will be here Friday. Thank you for the reference!If you're serious about learning what sails are best for your boat.......you need to first read this book.
The Art and Science of Sails
Whidden's book was first published in 1990, this is the one you should acquire not the newer edition. AFIK it is only available as a used item but I found it on Amazon for under $9.00. Anyway, I consider the original to be an important, fundamental reference in every sailors' library. Despite its age, iit is still the most relevant and understandable book on sails. I have the second version also and it has a lot of glossy photos... but it is essentially an advertisement for North Sails with very little real life referencing or instruction. Trust me, the original will be the best nine bucks you've ever spent on sailing.
If you don't know who Tom Whidden is.... that is also an important reason for reading it. Afterwards, you will be much, much wiser... I also suggest going through your original post after you've finished reading this sailing bible. You'll find yourself making corrections, organizing your priorities and making sense of what you really want with your sail decisions.
Out of curiosity, What would you see me changing in my original post?
dj
I've heard the term 3Di numerous times in discussions of sails and have only now, after your references to it, actually taken the time to look into it to get a better understanding.
3Di is a proprietary process used by North Sails to manufacture sails. It's interesting that everyone simply refers to this as 3Di. I think in the future if I reference it, I will say "North Sails 3Di manufacturing process". They essentially build the entire sail and all it's fibers in a manufacturing process to create whatever sail has been designed.
Now you all may have known that, but I didn't. That has lead me, in other sail related discussions, to be a bit confused as to what the heck it meant. I was thinking it was a fabric. But it's really a process via which the sail fabric is built using whatever design considerations have been decided upon. Really interesting. I'm sure well beyond my means... But hey, as they say, if you don't ask, you won't know...
Dave said it was 2.2 times to cost of dacron... At least that gives me an idea...
dj
I disagree with this. That book is so out of date wrt materials, methods, and construction. I mean, almost none of the sailcloth materials from 1990, let alone construction techniques, even exist anymore. Sailcloth and how sails are made has gone through very rapid changes in just the past few years. Even something general like "laminate" today has no bearing on what a laminate was only a few years ago, and definitely nothing like a 1990 laminate.
If one is getting a cross cut woven dacron sail, then OK, but you don't need that book for that.
Now that I think about it, woven dacron has had tremendous leaps in technology and no longer represents any dacron from 1990. Smaller fibers, mixed fiber sizes, tighter weaves, better resins - and that doesn't even include things like woven radial dacron or woven dacron with dyneema support.
Mark
Welll, I did say this:
It would be correct to say "North Sails 3Di manufacturing process", but that's quite a mouthful when 3Di is so succinct. Few people refer to dacron as "Challenge woven dacron", or to laminates by their different types like "Doyle string oriented mylar mold" or "Dimension-Polyant fiber path glued mylar" or such. Likewise, Hydranet is used when it is really "woven dacron with a percentage of dyneema yarns in the warp direction".
I don't know the cost difference between 3Di and dacron, and any difference would need an apples-apples comparison. For example, dacron 3Di vs. North crosscut dacron. Or dacron 3Di vs. Far East cheapest dacron. The cost might be 2x more, or it might be 10x more.
In our case, a dyneema/kevlar 3Di sail was ~30% more than a Hydranet sail from Zoom, which is a price competitive sailmaker. These two material choices are very different, with the dyneema/kevlar being more robust and better shape holding than hydranet, and 25% lighter. For us, that was a good tradeoff price/performance (and Hydranet was the only other contender since our boat can't use woven dacron, and I didn't want a laminate).
You would need quotes and determine your own tradeoffs based on them. 2x might be a good tradeoff, particularly for a furling sail where shape retention makes a huge difference in handling, but 4x might not. Only you can decide that. For sure, crosscut dacron will be your least expensive option, but some laminates may be right in that ballpark.
One good thing about boom furling is that it stores the sail in the best possible way. That gives laminates a reprieve from how many of them are stored.
Mark
That's why I looked it up...
Thank you....Perhaps now that I'm one of the "initiated" I would only use that once in a communication... But I must say it has had me scratching my head in the past as it has so often soundled like it was a material, and not a manufacturing system.... Or maybe I've just been a bit dense...
Time will tell...
Of course the whole "price competitive" aspect may be changing in our current economic times. With this scale of possible economic hit, I'm taking it on a 3 year plan. I may not bite the bullet on putting new sails on for about 3 years. But I hate not being sufficiently knowledgeable when talking with the "pro's" about all these things.
Truthfully, I've never been in a position where I could afford a new set of sails so I have simply made due with whatever I had. When looking for replacement sails, I've always gone the used sail route - but that was back in the days where it was either Dacron, or Dacron... That playing field has exploded...
dj
Actually, now that I've mentioned Zoom, you should consider contacting them. Very good designing and manufacturing, and competitively priced. I'm not sure how they handle measuring and fitting, since they are in New Zealand, but maybe they have US representatives.
Mark
Mark
To be more apples:apples, the quotes I got in the fall put NORDAC 3Di, which is their polyester based 3Di version, at 1.8 times the cost of their NORDAC cross-cut Dacron. The 2.2 multiple was comparing 3Di NORDAC to Dimension Polyant C-Breeze Dacron from a different but not especially cheap loft.
Just a FYI, the Zoom sail making website has actual data/information about sail cloth materials rather than the more commonly found marketing bull that drives me nuts...
dj
Are they from Hood? If so, that gives you a clue to the age, as Hood stopped making that a while ago. Other's manufacture a version, so if not Hood, then could be newer.
They are mostly dacron sails. Vectran fibers are added in the fill. Similar to how Hydranet adds dyneema to the warp on dacron sails. Adding to the fill means a crosscut sail, while adding to the warp means a radial sail.
Mark
They are mostly dacron sails. Vectran fibers are added in the fill. Similar to how Hydranet adds dyneema to the warp on dacron sails. Adding to the fill means a crosscut sail, while adding to the warp means a radial sail.
Mark
Got a date for Hood? Yes they are Hood sails.
dj
p.s. I just googled it - they were made after that. Hood stopped doing their own weaving in 1995. The PO put the these sails on and he bought the boat in 2000. I have the original receipts but they are on the boat so I can't look it up right now. I'm guessing these sails are in the 10 to 15 year old range. Might be a little older. Hood sold out to Quantum in 2017. So these sail predate that as they have the Hood logo.
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I
A good headsail will allow you to pull it pretty flat when sailing upwind and shouldn't contribute much to heeling. I would think this would be especially true of a Yankee headsail with that high clew.
-Chill Will
I would set the foresail on a windless day, pull the sheet tight and look for stretch wrinkles and excessive bagging. Granted, I'm not really experienced in this, I generally haven't considered the condition of my sails until I suffer poor performance beyond my tolerance. But, it makes sense to me that a blown headsail will show signs of bad shape when set flat.
A good headsail will allow you to pull it pretty flat when sailing upwind and shouldn't contribute much to heeling. I would think this would be especially true of a Yankee headsail with that high clew.
-Chill Will