Sailing Question

[Flamingo1]

Look up the specifications for MacGregor 21 on Sailboatdata and you will find a lot of info about your boat that is useful. As the specifications show a masthead rig, like you describe, I would guess that the 2nd forestay was somebodies idea of an improvement for your boat! I think it would make life easier when you are tacking if you simply removed that stay.

It might have been useful to somebody, but you will probably like to keep it simpler. OTOH, if you have a sail with the right luff length for the shorter stay, maybe give it a try, but my guess would be that the boat wouldn't be balanced quite correctly. If the boat wasn't designed as a cutter rig, adding the stay might not be the best idea. I don't think it would hurt to remove it.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=138

Actually, this is my boat:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=137

Mine is a 1973 and it does show it as a cutter rig and shows the two forestays. I note that in the picture attached to the specs, they are using a jib on the more aft forestay. Perhaps I should give that a try. I actually had not noticed that before.

The diagram also shows a spinnaker. I think I'll wait a while before considering that leap.

Still, in lighter winds (which is what I have been generally experiencing here in Arizona) shouldn't I stay with the larger genoa? Although I like the idea of having an easier time tacking/gybing without having to work the sail past the aft forestay.

More food for thought!

 

[rgranger]

I have 2 forestays on my boat.

Mine was set up the same way...(see pic)

And I flew both sails a few times to see how it goes. I don't think my V21 sailed any better with both headsails flying. I think the inner forestay is for flying in heavy conditions (it is called a solent stay)

In heavy air you put the genoa away and fly a much smaller jib on the "baby stay" and put a reef in the main. (Keep the forestay in place but without a sail flying) That keeps the boat balanced and allows you to plow through the chop instead of being hammered by it.

In light air, you disconnect the inner stay and bunge it up to the mast.

 

[Flamingo1]

Mine was set up the same way...(see pic)

And I flew both sails a few times to see how it goes. I don't think my V21 sailed any better with both headsails flying. I think the inner forestay is for flying in heavy conditions (it is called a solent stay)

In heavy air you put the genoa away and fly a much smaller jib on the "baby stay" and put a reef in the main. (Keep the forestay in place but without a sail flying) That keeps the boat balanced and allows you to plow through the chop instead of being hammered by it.

In light air, you disconnect the inner stay and bunge it up to the mast.

I like that suggestiont - disconnecting the inner stay and bungee it to the mast. May give that a try. There is only one back stay - so I assume I should be ok with only one forestay.

 

[Flamingo1]

Here are a couple of pictures of my boat at Lake Pleasant in Arizona. You can see the two forestays in the first picture. The old guy in that first picture is me.

 

[Joe]

The dual forestay set up is a bit of a pain because it is necessary to pull the foresail between the front stay and the second stay when tacking/gybing. I put up a pvc pipe on the aft forestay so that the genoa doesn't chafe on the aft forestay and so that the genoa comes across more smoothly.

Flamingo... Here's a suggestion to help manage the headsail... if it often used on cutter rigged sailboats. Here it is: Install a grommet halfway along the foot of the sail. Tie a line through the grommet and lead it to a block near the stem head.... run the line back to the cockpit. Essentially the line is used to pull the center of the sail forward into the gap between the headstay and the inner forestay... the wind will do the rest... pushing the sail through the forward gap instead of pushing it through the gap between the mast and the inner forestay.

There's a name for this device.... but I can't remember what it is or where I saw the idea in the first place.... sigh... I'm gettin' old.

 

[rgranger]

Hey Flam

Nice looking Mac 21. I like the forward hatch. You implied she was ugly... shame on you

I'm 100% certain that the second forestay is not used to support the mast. It is only for flying the jib. I've seen a dozen V21 sailboats and yours is only the second I've seen with a second forestay. And I used to own a Mac V22 as well. I sailed that boat all up and down the Albemarle & Pamlico sounds and in all kinds of weather. It only had one forestay as well.

If you have a genoa that overlaps the mast then there is no need to run the second sail in light air. And in heavy air you don't really want to be flying the genoa.

Figure out how to balance your sails in various wind conditions and you will have a tonne of fun on your little boat. You can even have the inner stay sail hanked and bungeed up at the base of the mast along with the stay That would make a sail change fast and easy. You might want to think about a down haul for the head sail. Those are less than $5 to install and would make changing head sails a snap.

The V21 is a fast and responsive little boat that can take a beating.

A lot of people really throw a lot of disrespect at the Macgregor sailboats but I have found them to be a lot of boat for the money, easy and inexpensive to fix and maintain and I have put a lot of great miles and made great memories with my kids on the three that I have owned.

 

[Kestle]

I have 2 forestays on my boat. One is at the very front of the bow and the second is a couple feet aft of the first. I have been setting the genoa on the front forestay. I have a jib - but I've never actually put it up. Generally, winds have been pretty light here, so I thought I needed the larger sail. The dual forestay set up is a bit of a pain because it is necessary to pull the foresail between the front stay and the second stay when tacking/gybing. I put up a pvc pipe on the aft forestay so that the genoa doesn't chafe on the aft forestay and so that the genoa comes across more smoothly. My boat has the ability to run a cutter rig - but the last thing I need right now is to worry about 2 foresails when I tack or gybe. One is enough. Also, the more aft of the two forestays is attached about 3/4 of the way up the mast - so it would be more of a fractional rig setting than the front forestay which is attached at the masthead. Are you suggesting that I use the jib instead of the genoa?

No, and tacking is not an issue. First, the bag is on the deck below the genoa sheets. The bag has sheets and halyards connected and inside running out the aft part of the bag. The halyard, the only thing that can get in the way, goes to the deck out if the bag to the mast step, where it is held agains tge mast with one inch blue painters tape. There is no inner stay either, as the wire is part of the storm sail (internally). It is not meant to be taken up and down a bunch, just a quick genoa replacement if the wind pipes up a lot.

Again, there is no inner forestay left up while sailing with the genoa.

Jeff

 

[Indysailor]

In lightish winds, when my genoa is over trimmed, I'll get lee helm, not as much as described, but I do notice it. Once the wind picks up, then it won't matter so much. This situation sounds somewhat similar to my experience learning about balanced sails in different winds; gradually I learned that "when in doubt, let it out" is more often than not the way to go with the genoa. Also, maybe I'm missing it, but what shape is the genoa in the situation described and what was the wind speed? Were the cars up or back? With no healing, I was guessing light winds, and it also occurred to me that I try to use the genoa to drive the boat and not really for pointing, so if I'm trying to make more to windward and not lose speed, I pay close attention to the tell tales on the genoa to tell me when it's trimmed best for maximum speed and lift. The main will take care of the pointing. It took me a while to stop cranking it all the way in.

 

[Flamingo1]

Hey Flam

Nice looking Mac 21. I like the forward hatch. You implied she was ugly... shame on you

The hatch is actually in pretty rough shape. The wood has dried out from the AZ sun and it is coming apart. One of my future projects is going to be to build a new hatch. It leaks a bit when it rains, also.

The wood in the cockpit also needs some help. I've been looking for replacement hatch rails as they have both cracked or broken in spots. They still function, but they do need replaced/repaired.

Right in the doorway of the hatch, there is a really nice piece of wood - inlaid with a couple of dolphins. I intend to sand that down a bit and then get some varnish on it - just to make it look nice.

There is a box in the cockpit that looks like a reversed kleenex dispenser. The prior owner put some wire mesh inside of that box - likely to keep birds out. The wire mesh comes right out but I have left it alone for now (to keep birds out). Not sure if there was a radio there or what it was used for. That could use some work - repair - replacement.

It doesn't show through in the pics much, but the blue paint is thin - or gone - in spots. So, a bit of paint is in order.

But, I bought it to sail - not to rebuild - so for now....she'll do!

 

[cookwithgas]

Something still isn't adding up ... I've sailed with my sails grossly over-trimmed but that has never, ever, made it difficult to turn my boat upwind. A normal (small) boat will turn upwind easily no matter how your sails are trimmed - UNLESS your head sail is back winded, then you won't be able to turn your boat upwind. As an aside to others, I understand that some boats with a full keel can over-ride the helm with the trim of the sails, but we're talking about a small boat presumably with a swing keel. I haven't heard how the wind speed has been defined. Was it sooo light that your boat was barely moving? Directional changes can be difficult if that is the case. Was it soooo strong that your rail was in the water all the time? If not, excessive weather helm or excessive lee helm can't be the problem either. According to your (later) description, you were attempting to sail within about 40 degrees of true wind. The total tacking angle would be about 80 degrees then. As Joe mentions, you probably can't expect to do any better than 90 degrees, so you may have been attempting to sail too close to the wind to make headway. But if that were the case, you would have been luffing, even with your sails set for close haul ... and you still wouldn't have any problem turning upwind and thru the wind (unless you were actually in "irons"). Possibly, that is why your boat kept turning downwind. You may have been attempting to sail too close and going in "irons" which makes it difficult to turn thru the wind once you have lost all your momentum. I don't think McGregors are known for sailing in close angles with the wind ... I suspect that you were attempting to sail in "irons" - too close to the wind.

I agree something doesn't sound right but I know why the boat might do that. My Venture 222 would severely round up when over powered. My much heavier, current boat also rounds up but slower. However, Both of my boats have suddenly turned down wind when I hit bottom. With that 400lb keel down it could drag hard enough to cause this. Especially if he had it locked down.

 

[THECUSCUS]

I believe part of the problem was his keel was too far "forward", by being down all the way until th cable was slack ( the OP's words). The keels on the Macs are designed to be in a swept back position ( 30 degrees from parallel to the bottom of the hull). When the lockdown bolt is installed, this is achieved. If no lockdown bolt is installed, and the keel let down until the cable is slack, it will be more like 90 degrees to the bottom. This will move the center of resistance too far forward, coupled with his headsail issues, will give him a lot of lee helm . Next time you go out, crank your keel down , looking at the lock down bolt holes in the keel trunk until the hole in the keel lines up. A flashlight held over the hole on one side of the trunk really helps. Some sail with the lock down bolt in, some without, this is not the issue of this post. Alignment of the holes is, the get the keel in the designed location. From the full up position, I count how many cranks of the winch it takes to get to that spot. That is where I start (write that number down ) and make adjustments from there to balance the boat. My number is 37, but with a big headsail up ( center of effort forward) I might only go down 30, to keep the resistance aft. Try it and let me know how/if it works for you.

 

[Ted]

I believe part of the problem was his keel was too far "forward", by being down all the way until th cable was slack ( the OP's words). The keels on the Macs are designed to be in a swept back position ( 30 degrees from parallel to the bottom of the hull). When the lockdown bolt is installed, this is achieved. If no lockdown bolt is installed, and the keel let down until the cable is slack, it will be more like 90 degrees to the bottom. This will move the center of resistance too far forward, coupled with his headsail issues, will give him a lot of lee helm .

I believe you are incorrect in your statement that moving the center of resistance forward would increase lee helm. It is just the opposite. As the center of resistance of the centerboard moves forward, you increase weather helm. Moving it aft would increase lee helm. Think of the center of resistance as the fulcrum of a lever and you will see how the forces at opposite ends of the lever change as the location of the fulcrum is moved fore and aft. The balance of the helm can be dramatically changed by raising or lowering the centerboard.

 

[Joe Blizzard]

Yo no soy marinero...

Why was the nose pushing around to the N - and the boat not responding to the tiller?

Sounds like the simple explanation is that your keel/rudder were stalled, IE there wasn't enough relative motion between the keel and the water to keep the wind from pushing you sideways. The wings on the bottom are just as important as the ones on top. You stally, you fally, as we say in the airplane biz.