Sailing Question

[Flamingo1]

I went out sailing on Sunday and I had an issue sailing that I still do not completely understand and thought that someone with more experience might be able to help me understand my sail setup or understand what I was doing incorrectly.

Scenario is as follows:

1. Wind was from SSE.
2. I was attempting to sail due E (on a tack trying to get to the dock which was SSE).
3. Because we were attempting to sail close to the wind, I pulled the main in somewhat to the center of the boat (relatively tight) and put the genoa in relatively tight.
4. The nose of the boat would swing to the N - even with the tiller completely over.

After coming around twice as a result of this, I let out the genoa in an attempt to drop some wind on the nose and keep the nose of the boat from coming around to the N.

Once I let the sail out, the boat would head in generally an E direction - although shading to the N. As we sailed, I tightened the genoa again and tried to get closer to the wind, and the same thing happened - nose started pushing hard toward the N even with tiller all the way over. I let out the genoa and then the tiller started to respond.

We were not heeling much at the time, so it wasn't because the rudder wasn't grabbing enough water. Rudder was completely in the water.

What am I missing? Shouldn't we have been close-hauled to sail at a point close the wind? Why was the nose pushing around to the N - and the boat not responding to the tiller?

 

[Jackdaw]

Well, if the wind was out out the SSE, and you were heading East, then the true wind angle was 67 degrees, a reach. If this is true and you were trimmed for close hauled (45 degree true wind angle) then you were WAY over-trimmed.

If you wanted to sail higher than where you were pointed, which sounds like the case, you need to be in point mode. Trim the sails in and steer to the jib tell-tails.

Main: Boom on the centerline

Jib: Trimmed in so the last foot of the leech is parallel with the boom

N.B. -
Remember, if you can point the boat to where you want to go, you are fetching and you should ease the sails until the tailtails stop flying. Then back in a bit.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

It sounds to me like you are describing excessive lee helm. In a relatively light wind, it seems very odd that you could be pushing the tiller completely to the port side and not be getting the boat to respond to windward.

Not to be insulting, but did you have the genoa completely backwinded? That is the only reason I could see that your boat was reacting that way. Did you sail out with the sails on a port reach and then not change the genny for a stbd tack on the way back in? That is the only scenario that I can think of which would cause this reaction.

 

[Flamingo1]

Scott - no. Genoa was set up to port side of boat. I think Jackdaw might have hit on the issue, I wasn't sailing high enough with my genoa pulled in tight - although I did try to sail closer to the wind and that wasn't working either.

We eventually made headway E - by letting out the genoa sheet a bit - and then tacked back SW and I ended up sailing in to within just a few feet of the dock, but the lack of tiller control in that situation concerned me. I guess I now know what to do if/when it happens again.

I'm still learning - and trying to get signed up for some lessons to answer questions just like this one. Thanks for your input.

 

[Jackdaw]

Flamingo,

Do you have a windex? It is a great tool for learning about apparent wind. As the boat comes up to close hauled, the fly will align with the boxes. After a while, you can do this by feel alone.

Sailing close hauled takes some practice and work; turning up slightly more and more into the wind, while trimming in the sails. When fully close hauled, the leeches (back end) of the sails should be parallel. That a good way to know when your headsail is trimmed enough.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Except for a run or broach reach, the easiest thing to remember is let it out until it luff.

Sailing for Dummies is really a good book, you can get it used for next to nothing.

The other VERY BEST is Don Guilette's Sail Trim Users Guide right here on this website. It is excellent, the best thing I have ever read on sail trim and I've been messing about with it for the past 50 years.

 

[Flamingo1]

Flamingo,

Do you have a windex? It is a great tool for learning about apparent wind. As the boat comes up to close hauled, the fly will align with the boxes. After a while, you can do this by feel alone.

Sailing close hauled takes some practice and work; turning up slightly more and more into the wind, while trimming in the sails. When fully close hauled, the leeches (back end) of the sails should be parallel. That a good way to know when your headsail is trimmed enough.

I do have a windex and I keep an eye on it. That explains why I am now cross-eyed. I don't recall whether I have the boxes (fly?) lined up correctly - next time I take the mast down, I'll do a better job of making certain I have them lined up correctly. I have been keeping the boat in dry storage so that I don't have to raise and lower the mast every time I take it out - but next time I take it down...


I also have tell-tales, but I'm not sure exactly how to utilize them. I'm going to re-read the posts above regarding the tell-tales.

Generally, I haven't had too many issues tacking/gybing and sailing the lake - except for this frustrating experience. It happened on one other outing briefly - but perhaps that was due to a wind shift.

Thanks again for the input. Gives me something to consider until next time out.

 

[Flamingo1]

What I suspect is that I "thought" I was sailing higher to the wind than I was and I set up the sails for what I thought the wind was instead of for reality.

So, if, in my hypothetical, I set up the sail to head E (with the jib sheet let out) and then bring the boat a bit more starboard (point it further to the south) do I pull the genoa sheet in as I sail higher?

 

[Joe]

First....you need telltales http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?10325 instructions are in package. Here's another link on how to use them http://www.wb-sails.fi/Portals/209338/news/95_11_Tellingtales/Tellingtales.html

Second... learn to express your boat's activity and nature's conditions in terms of degrees on the compass, rather than compass points... it's just easier to understand... for me anyway... For instance, if your course is 270 (west) and true wind is 315(NW), you're close hauled on starboard tack. Degrees are more commonly used on charts, GPS and compass than points.

Third... one of the first things you will learn in a sailing course is the relationship between True and Apparent wind. At its most essential level, we navigate with True wind data... we trim our sails with apparent wind info.

Accomplishing these three tasks will be a major threshold in your sailing experience.

 

[Jackdaw]

What I suspect is that I "thought" I was sailing higher to the wind than I was and I set up the sails for what I thought the wind was instead of for reality.

So, if, in my hypothetical, I set up the sail to head E (with the jib sheet let out) and then bring the boat a bit more starboard (point it further to the south) do I pull the genoa sheet in as I sail higher?

As a rule, yes. As you sail higher (to the wind), sail tighter (sheets)

But as Joe says, thats a 'guideline'. You want to master trim and wind. Then it all becomes second nature.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Either the genoa is over powered for the apparent wind angle or the main is underpowered. both or either result in lee helm.
I believe there is a thread discussing how to trim.

 

[Randylb]

If it was light wind another thing to consider is wind shear. I've been in many light air races where the windex and other signs can be from one direction but pressure on the sails and telltales are significantly different. Especially when there is a significant difference in air vs water vs land temps. Very frustrating.

 

[Flamingo1]

First....you need telltales http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?10325 instructions are in package. Here's another link on how to use them http://www.wb-sails.fi/Portals/209338/news/95_11_Tellingtales/Tellingtales.html

Second... learn to express your boat's activity and nature's conditions in terms of degrees on the compass, rather than compass points... it's just easier to understand... for me anyway... For instance, if your course is 270 (west) and true wind is 315(NW), you're close hauled on starboard tack. Degrees are more commonly used on charts, GPS and compass than points.

Third... one of the first things you will learn in a sailing course is the relationship between True and Apparent wind. At its most essential level, we navigate with True wind data... we trim our sails with apparent wind info.

Accomplishing these three tasks will be a major threshold in your sailing experience.

Problem #1 - boat does not currently have a compass. It also does not have any wind instruments other than the windex.

That being said, I would estimate that the true wind was approximately 150 degrees. I was probably very close to 90 (going pretty much straight east) but I was trying to hit ~110 degrees, but couldn't make that happen.

Lake Pleasant, Arizona has a dam at the south end that runs east/west - so it's pretty easy to gauge your direction based on your position in context to the dam wall.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8495847,-112.2677123,1357m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

So, while I don't have a compass and I cannot give you specific degrees, I think that I can come pretty close.

I've read sailing books and have an understanding of the theory, but it doesn't do any good until you translate the theory into practice. The reality didn't appear to match up to the theory and that's why I was asking. It would seem that the problem was not with the theory, but with my concept of reality.

I wanted to gain more ground to the south (that's where the marina and the dock were - directly down wind), so I trimmed my sails in a manner in which I thought would accomplish the direction I wanted all before I actually had my boat in that desired heading. I believe that then made it impossible to actually achieve the point of sail that I wanted because the genoa was overpowered and it never let me get to the desired degree.

I'm now trying to conceptualize how I could have achieved the desired degrees and whether I should have made smaller adjustments to achieve it (ie. take the 90 degree setting I was sailing well with the genoa sheet out and then adjust tiller to ~95 degrees and then trim sails to that setting - and do that same process again until hitting something in the 110-115 degree range). If the wind was around 150 degrees - I should have been able to sail at 110 degrees with proper sail trim - correct?

That now makes a lot of sense. The overpowered genoa was overpowering my rudder. I appreciate your feedback.

 

[Brian S]

Don's book, available from the chandlery here on this site, would be indispensable to you. It will teach you how to trim your sails, and how to read the telltales.

 

[Joe]

Problem #1 - boat does not currently have a compass. It also does not have any wind instruments other than the windex.

Well. there's your first investment.. heh, heh. No, actually I'd get a handheld gps first.

Here's the deal... since you don't have a compass you're just guessing at directions. So here's what you do until you get a compass. Make a shroud tell. Tie a strand of wool, or cassette tape... anything light that will flow easily to your shrouds.. one on either side... always use the windward shroud tell. You can use your windex for this but a shroud tell about 6 feet above the deck is much easier to see. Anyhow, luff your boat up into the wind until it stops and the shroud tell is flowing straight back. That's your true wind direction... set your course relative to that direction once you've established a reference point... Basically you can only sail about 45 degrees to true wind direction... that's called "close hauled". Other points of sail are related to the boat's course and true wind direction. In descending order they are: no sail zone, close hauled, close reach, beam reach, broad reach and running. Points of sail are the same on either side of the boat and extend from 0 degrees forward to 180 aft.

Now while your boat is luffed up and pointing to true wind direction, stand facing forward and hold your arm out 90 degrees to the centerline of the boat.... you can make a small sightline right on the coaming if you like. Then determine your 45 degree angle... this would be the close hauled direction, limited by the true wind direction. Mark this point on the coaming also. Make a 90 and 45 deg mark on both sides. If your destination is somewhere between the close hauled limits you've just established... 45 deg to either side of the true wind direction, then you will have to zig zag up wind... called "beating" to reach your destination. Okay.. listen up... 45 deg on one side to 45 on the other would be 90 deg for a full turn... so when you're sailing close hauled, 45 deg to true wind direction.... then the 90deg mark we established earlier will be your next close hauled course. So when that 90 deg line is pointing at your destination, you are on the "layline" and you can fetch the mark.

Okay, up to this point you have established your route strategy... so... point in the appropriate direction and start trimming the sails for maxim boat performance, using the Telling Tales article as a guideline. You can preset the sails based on your intended point of sail, so if you know you'll be sailing close hauled then bring the boom in close to centerline ... but remember, once the boat starts moving it's speed and direction will affect the true wind speed and true wind direction. Your shroud tells no longer indicate true wind data when the boat is moving...they show, ta da! APPARENT wind speed and direction. NOW>>>>> you can use the tell tales on the jib and main to get your sail plan trimmed.... So now you understand why we navigate with true wind data and trim with apparent wind info.

If you must tack back and forth, close hauling, the the average direction between the port and starboard tack will show you the true wind direction.... this stuff gets real easy if you have a compass.... changes in this average will indicate a shift in true wind direction which will have an effect on your route strategy.

On last piece of advice... before you rush out to purchase a compass.... I would recommend an inexpensive handheld GPS (not a chartplotter, just a simple GPS) such as the venerable Magellan GPS 72h.

It has all the compass info and so much more. An absolute essential tool for any boater. Good luck.

 

[rgranger]

Was the keel all the way down? I've owned two Mac 21's and a Mac 22 in my days and the weather/lee helm can be adjusted by moving the keel up or down a bit. Honestly I've never had trouble with lee helm ... only weather helm on a Mac. Seems very strange to me.

 

[Roadking Larry]

If you have a smart phone there are some pretty decent GPS apps that even include a compass.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Flamingo,

The guys here know what they're talking about pal. Looks like they cleared up a lot for you.

I occasionally take new-to-sailing folks for lessons. The first handout I give them is from Chapman's Piloting. I have it in a protective plastic sleeve & ask that they keep it within close reach(no pun intended) for quick reference. The feedback I get with this has been that this is a real help in honing their sail sets.

It's a simple quick-visual reference on sail sets for 360° point headings. Although, all sail plans differ, it gives a starting point picture. From here, you can hone your sail tweaking to fit your boat's design & sail plan.

CR

 

[Merlin Clark]

Like Joe said: "when in doubt, let it out".

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Something still isn't adding up ... I've sailed with my sails grossly over-trimmed but that has never, ever, made it difficult to turn my boat upwind. A normal (small) boat will turn upwind easily no matter how your sails are trimmed - UNLESS your head sail is back winded, then you won't be able to turn your boat upwind.

As an aside to others, I understand that some boats with a full keel can over-ride the helm with the trim of the sails, but we're talking about a small boat presumably with a swing keel.

I haven't heard how the wind speed has been defined. Was it sooo light that your boat was barely moving? Directional changes can be difficult if that is the case. Was it soooo strong that your rail was in the water all the time? If not, excessive weather helm or excessive lee helm can't be the problem either.

According to your (later) description, you were attempting to sail within about 40 degrees of true wind. The total tacking angle would be about 80 degrees then. As Joe mentions, you probably can't expect to do any better than 90 degrees, so you may have been attempting to sail too close to the wind to make headway.

But if that were the case, you would have been luffing, even with your sails set for close haul ... and you still wouldn't have any problem turning upwind and thru the wind (unless you were actually in "irons"). Possibly, that is why your boat kept turning downwind. You may have been attempting to sail too close and going in "irons" which makes it difficult to turn thru the wind once you have lost all your momentum. I don't think McGregors are known for sailing in close angles with the wind ... I suspect that you were attempting to sail in "irons" - too close to the wind.