Sailing Question

Paul F · Mar 4, 2014

It sounds to me like you simply had to much sail up, trimmed in too tight. In small boats and large if you are over powered - the sails will push the boat around downwind. Moving the traveler out will give more control and less heel. Let out the genny. Having a fixed compass on the boat will help a lot in sailing to a steady course. When sailing to the wind, keep steering the boat and trimming the sails.

shemandr · Mar 4, 2014

Two suggestions: 1) Get a copy of the instructions for the Windex and read them carefully. It can be read accurately for 2 degrees, which is pretty good. They are rarely straight even if it was when the mast was stepped. 2) Get a compass installed and learn to read it for defining close hauled, to identity wind directional shifts (Lifts vs. knocks) and to navigate.

Scott T-Bird · Mar 4, 2014

Paul, I disagree ... the OP has not described an over-powered situation. Besides, most small boats will round-up when over-powered. I've never experienced lee helm even when over-powered with a 150 genny, reefed main, and masthead rig. Weather helm is the only reaction I would expect if the OP was over-powered. In fact it is just wrong to suggest that most boats will be pushed downwind when over-canvassed. Just the opposite is the normal response ... rounding into the wind (the size of the genny isn't going to change that, and I doubt the OP has a too-large genny to begin with).

Unless, his swing keel was mostly up instead of down. If the keel was all the way up, he would experience leeward drifting and possibly the bow being pushed to leeward. That kind of sounds like his description.

Paul F · Mar 4, 2014

I know it is hard to understand why the boat turned downwind. Unless the rake was forward which maybe can be the case with a trailed boat. Hard to understand why the boat turned away from the wind. Here is some good reading I found on the web on sail trim.
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/other/racetrim/racetrim.htm

Scott T-Bird · Mar 4, 2014

Well, most of it just isn't adding up. But he was pretty clear in the original post that being over-powered was not the problem. He said they weren't heeling and the rudder was fully submerged in the water. I can only conclude that his problem wasn't a result of either lee helm or weather helm. At first, it sounded like he wasn't sailing particularly close to the wind (possibly on a reach), but later he described trying to sail at about 40 degrees off the wind, with close-hauled sails. That might put him in irons (in a MacGregor) if he lost all momentum. I think the position of the keel may also be a factor ... that wasn't described.

I have a friend with a Macgregor 21 and his boat won't sail within 10 degrees of my boat, and my boat can't sail any closer than 40 degrees off the wind, at best, probably more like 50 when sailing alongside him to stay reasonably on the same course. I normally sail with my tacks at about 100 to 110 degrees apart just to avoid fighting every wind shift and I know his boat can't come close to tacking at those angles.

I'm guessing that the problem is a combination of the keel position and attempting to sail in irons.

Jackdaw · Mar 4, 2014

This problem reminds me of one of my favorite movies quotes:

Hercule Poirot: 'There are too many clues in this room.'

I think we have loaded the poster up with some good ideas. I'd like to hear back from him after he has a chance to try some of this, and see what happens.

rgranger · Mar 4, 2014

Scott T-Bird said:
...but we're talking about a small boat presumably with a swing keel.

Yep! The Mac21 has a 400lb cast iron keel on a pivot bolt. It is about 14" wide and about 6' long.

Anonymous 121765 · Mar 4, 2014

Scott,

Good take on this. Yea, there was never any mention of true/or apparent wind readings.
I do know that inside a 45° close haul point, I start to depower. My C30 has a beamy bathtub shaped hull & I do find that a close reach in mostly light to medium winds work best in upwind performance. Add to this a 155 ginney, and trying to cheat without losing speed, a different sail plan must be added for air flow between headsail & main in what I call pressure flow buildup.

All sail plans & hull designs differ in their performance styles. I do know in lighter winds, I can cheat the boom over center and setting the right pocket/trim, I can cheat to keep course & speed. We've all had to crab upwind & if we are flying sideways, certain sets work, others won't.

On my boat, I can cheat upwind by setting the main as described above & then tighten up the headsail (sometimes having to adjust the fairlead) to create a narrower gap (choke point) at the aft 1/3 portion of the two sails thus to creating a air compression between the lee of the main and the pressure (windward) side of the head.

So, in these conditions as described, I can cheat inside of 45° while not losing SOG. Of course the sail sets need to change depending on wind, course & sea conditions but, this works best for my boat in light to medium conditions. Like I said, all boats/sail plans are created different. You obviously have it down to a science.....your my kind of boater pal.

CR

Scott T-Bird · Mar 4, 2014

Flamingo, I wouldn't say I had a lot of experience with a MacGregor, but I do have experience in finding that I can't point as high as I think I ought to! I'm often pretty frustrated when I find that I can't point as high as the Stars, Thistles, and E-Scows that normally go blowing by me in just about any wind condition when I find myself in the middle of one of the LHYC race venues.

Honestly, I'm still pretty baffled by what you describe ... it sounds like lee helm, but even that shouldn't prevent you from being able to steer your boat upwind and thru the wind to tack to the other side, especially in normal conditions where you are not over-powered. If you were in irons, you would definitely recognize it by the luffing sails.
It sounds like you had your keel fully down, where it should be when sailing upwind.

The only thing I can think of is that you may have been sailing too close to the wind and gradually losing momentum to the point where only by easing the sheets to the genny, where you able to fall off enough to gain some momentum back again and start steering upwind again.

topcat0399 · Mar 4, 2014

Scott T-Bird said:
Flamingo, I wouldn't say I had a lot of experience with a MacGregor, but I do have experience in finding that I can't point as high as I think I ought to! I'm often pretty frustrated when I find that I can't point as high as the Stars, Thistles, and E-Scows that normally go blowing by me in just about any wind condition when I find myself in the middle of one of the LHYC race venues.

Honestly, I'm still pretty baffled by what you describe ... it sounds like lee helm, but even that shouldn't prevent you from being able to steer your boat upwind and thru the wind to tack to the other side, especially in normal conditions where you are not over-powered. If you were in irons, you would definitely recognize it by the luffing sails.
It sounds like you had your keel fully down, where it should be when sailing upwind.

The only thing I can think of is that you may have been sailing too close to the wind and gradually losing momentum to the point where only by easing the sheets to the genny, where you able to fall off enough to gain some momentum back again and start steering upwind again.

I think Scott pretty much nailed it here.

What Flamingo describes sound just like what happens when I put our venture in chains.

It falls off with no rudder control until it makes headway and rudder control is regained. It sort of feels like the bow is being forced off. Sometimes it ends up wearing around if I wasn't paying attention close enough.

Great info in this thread - Good Job getting them going Flamingo!

topcat0399 · Mar 4, 2014

Flamingo1 said:
Bingo.

I ended up "wearing around" twice because I didn't let out the genoa sheets.

As a rookie/novice, I thought I had more ability to sail toward the wind because I still had a lot of genoa sheet left....sort of like my wife with the checkbook - we must still have money since we still have checks!

Now I have a better understanding that I am looking at around 50 degrees to the wind instead of 40. I was pretty sure I knew where the wind was and where my boat was - but it wasn't working when I thought it should and it wasn't reacting the way I thought it would if I was in irons. Is it possible that I took most of the luff out of the sale by having it sheeted in close?

Got to be sure to pay attention when the boat unintentionally wears because usually an unintentional Gybe also occurs.

You are probably right on the edge of luffing when it happens and by that time the boat has stalled. Sort of like not having enough speed into a tack and blowing it. The head of the boat can fall off fast and far. Easing the main and minding the rudder helps me fall to broad reach, then I can gain speed and head up again.

One thing I've learned - wind be tricky.

rgranger · Mar 5, 2014

Flamingo1 said:
Bingo.

I ended up "wearing around" twice because I didn't let out the genoa sheets.

And then there are those light air days when the jet ski and power boaters who cross in front of your bow... waving and yelling things like... "you have such a pretty boat".... as their bow wake hits the front of your bow and turns you 90 deg. .... and just about the time you get things sorted out and start making headway.... along comes another.... :bang:

rgranger · Mar 5, 2014

Flamingo1 said:
My boat is well "used" and "has a lot of character". I suspect that it's only pretty to me.

Hey Flamingo....

This is a '73 Mac21 after a coat of rustoleum's "sail blue" (oil based in a can... not spray). It was my first "pocket cruiser".

Wash off the wax with detergent, then two hours with an orbital sander... pressure wash and let dry ...and then roll and tip ... six hours later...

Roll and tip is easy... if you want to try it and need some info, PM me off list. I can type you through it.

Great thing about an old Mac is... well you can't really hurt it none now can you...

Kestle · Mar 5, 2014

The area between the jib and the main is called the slot.

Mac's are very sensitive to mast rake and forestay tension. If the forestay flops around, you can't point. Also, as fractional rigs they don't point well with a 135 or 150 genoa, as you can't close the slot (as it is outboard the stays/lifelines).

Your rudder is also probably unbalanced...try moving the lower tip aft just an inch or two. If that helps, you need re-mount the rudder on the tiller a bit mire forward.

Google "barber hauling" so you understand how to work a 90 to 100 jib.

Just some thoughts from a Mac owner. PM me if you need more help.

Jeff

Kestle · Mar 5, 2014

Sorry, I forgot...limit mast rake aft to 1-2 degrees.

Jeff

Scott T-Bird · Mar 6, 2014

Look up the specifications for MacGregor 21 on Sailboatdata and you will find a lot of info about your boat that is useful. As the specifications show a masthead rig, like you describe, I would guess that the 2nd forestay was somebodies idea of an improvement for your boat! I think it would make life easier when you are tacking if you simply removed that stay.

It might have been useful to somebody, but you will probably like to keep it simpler. OTOH, if you have a sail with the right luff length for the shorter stay, maybe give it a try, but my guess would be that the boat wouldn't be balanced quite correctly. If the boat wasn't designed as a cutter rig, adding the stay might not be the best idea. I don't think it would hurt to remove it.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=138

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