reported sailboat manufacturing plant closures??

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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I know in previous threads discussions on the demise of sail boat manufacturers were blamed on economics, but the boat market in general does not support this assumption. My observation is that as the population ages people are moving to power to stay on the water.
Some of the savvy builders saw this trend early and began supporting their sailboat building with power boats.
It started with Hinckley, then Sabre, J boats, and now Tartan (their only showing at recent boat shows was their new Legacy line). These boats can have a 2 year wait and the median cost is north of $800k. My yard builds the MJM and they are pumping out 8-12 boats a month and recently moved to a bigger facility to build a 55 footer due to demand.
I happen to be friends with the principal owner of Sabre and he told me they hadn't sold a sailboat in 3 years back in 2012, but in touring the factory for their powerboats, they had 8 boats under construction and a backlog for their biggest boats of 18 months.
I can count 8 of our sailing friends who have moved to powerboats in the past 3 years.
Hunter was saved by a luxury powerboat builder and Catalina stopped building to spec back in 2011. To keep their skilled staff, they are building Geminis to make sure there is enough work to keep building sailboats.
Great post.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Well, I can tell my story about new boats.

Nope.

My Grandfather was a small business man, owned a commercial photography company. He raised 3 daughters on one income. Owned 1 house, 2 cars, a mobile home at the beach bought in 1966, a 19' 90hp wood runabout, and one of the earliest Sailfishes made of fiberglass. Except for the house, everything was originally purchased new.

Me, I have a smaller house than my Grandparents, 1 car I'm still paying for, no kids, and a 30 year old 19' sailboat. I don't feel like I could afford to buy and maintain a nice new boat. Even if I could finance it, I'd be on the 10 year loan plan. And, even being conservative, I'd be thinking about buying a Precision 23, last of the bigger small boats. What are my other choices?

I get the feeling that new boats are effectively more expensive than equivalent boats were back in the go-go '70s, the heyday of US sailing.

I think the reasons for this are the systematic dismantling of the middle class. Back in the sailing heyday, our country had a vibrant middle class, that was growing and increasing in wealth. There was more money in the economy, which allowed for a consumer-based economy.

Now when I look at boats, I see expensive large boats. And small boats. Nothing in between, because there's no longer that middle class market. Companies have learned they need to cater to the wealthy, because that is the only market that has the wealth to spend on boats. Having been to some powerboat shows, I'm afraid that it's not too much different in the powerboat market. The pleasure boat market just seems to have a few 19-21' boats, but then go larger from there. And they don't make a small, 14-15' runabout someone can start out in anymore. Well, Ok, I guess the PWC (jetski) pretty much decimated the small family runabout market.

Oh, well. I got nuthin' other than that.
 
Feb 2, 2010
373
Island Packet 37 Hull #2 Harpswell Me
I love my IP 37, but at 60 years young, i probably represent one of the younger owners. The bottom line is that IP owners were dying off far quicker than young sailors were entering the market. The introduction with the Bluejacket was a bit of tinkering on the side but probably too late to turn things around as was using the work force to produce Seawards.
I see Island Packet having a couple of fault lines, building increasingly larger boats but missing out the entry level sailor (37 foot is the smallest model) who with brand loyalty might move up to the larger boat later. Brand loyalty is huge within the IP community but the blood line is dying. The boats were becoming very expensive, again denying the company access to the younger ownership market.
All that said, i would not give up my 37 and cannot think of a better, safer boat to go blue water sailing in.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I think one of the points is that European builders are selling new, expensive boats TO US; but we're not selling many to them or to ourselves. So, yes--the total market has perhaps shrunk overall and we're not as rich as we used to be, but at the same time Europe has captured a large market share here with their Beneteaus, Jenneaus, Bavarias, Dufours, Dehlers, Hanses, X-boats, and even with Moodys, Swans, & Oysters, and etc. So, there's some purchasing power still around, even at a time over the past decade where the Euro has been nearly as strong, if not stronger, than the US dollar. Our brand loyalists among Catalina and Hunter owners have kept those companies alive but look at all of our great brands that have died out or all but so--Cal, Pearson, Morgan, Islander, Ericson, O'Day, Sabre, Gulfstar, Pacific Seacraft, Cabo Rico, etc., and now Island Packet. Why have those died out and the Euro brands survived? Tell me that; I'd like to know.:doh: The last new (current year) boat I saw on the water near me was a Jenneau 37, before that it was an Oyster > 60, and before that, an X-boat 41. These are expensive yachts!!
 
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Aug 16, 2009
1,000
Hunter 1986 H31 California Yacht Marina, Chula Vista, CA
Just some questions. First, having visited an IP at a boat show, I was more than impressed with the quality of the build and the hardware, though they had succumbed to the trend toward expansive salon's with few or no useful handholds so useful to blue water sailing. It was, to me, the epitome of what a mid-40s boat could be for those willing to pay for it. (1) So the question is whether their demise will drive up or drive down the price of used IPs? (2) I also wondered whether the large number of luxury catamarans emerging from charter is cutting into the luxury monohull market? (3) Could the falling price of gas/diesel have emboldened older sailors to make the move from sails to power boats? (4) Is there any sense that a major reason sailing remains strong in Europe is the concentration of exciting destinations within relatively easy reach. This is not to belittle what we have here, just possibly a difference in character. We certainly have a cornucopia of naturally gorgeous sailing destinations, but my guess is that the younger generation of potential sailors, here or across the pond, might be less excited by going to the San Juans than the Greek Isles. (5) Like some other posters, I could not help but notice that sailing magazine ads recognize that the target demographic for a new boat is not someone anxious to ply the 7 seas for love of pure sailing and discovery, but someone who can afford to sail less frequently despite the mortgage and slip fees, but can be convinced it can be done with little expertise and in luxurious comfort [all sails furled, electric winches, fully integrated autopilots, self-tacking jibs, etc.].
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
So, luxurious comfort aboard, to be realized, depends to a certain degree on finding a comfortable "berth" at destination. That is, a nice mooring in quiet water, a secure slip or end-tie, or lying at anchor in a well-protected cove. I don't think luxury below would work as a selling point if customers were envisioning hanging on to avoid being flipped out of their respective bunks on a rolling yacht during the night. I think of this today because of my Saturday night at Santa Cruz Island this past weekend. Lumpity-lump all night, and cold!! Who does this for "pleasure?" Two other boats besides us!! So yes, once you've had enough of Santa Catalina Island where can you sail that new yacht to enjoy those expensive luxuries in an island venue? Frankly, I think that the ever-fading sense of "meeting the challenge" of sea is partly at work in the new designs b/c that's where so much of the market is now.
 
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Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Not intending to provoke a reaction from the satisfied present owners of IP boats, but I saw their perception of their market back in the late 90's when visiting their display at the Seattle boat show. I and two friends, both with many overnight deliveries to our credit on sailboats, were looking around in their new model a "350", as I recall.

It was finished out very well and looked solidly built. The interior layout was pretty much oriented to dockside living or boating in smooth waters. Easy-chair seating and no sea berths in the middle of the boat. The salesman asked us how we liked it and I still recall his reply when I asked where one would sleep on a typical overnight passage off the Washington coast (We are all from the PDX area).

He said the best place was the cabin sole. I pointed out that for a quarter million dollars I would really expect a secure and comfy place to sleep when under way. He looked me in the eye and without a hint of irony told me that I was not the right sort of customer for their boat. (!)
:)
With their long shallow keels designed for the shallow waters off of Florida, I could understand their initial popularity... and would admit that they are pretty good motor sailors. Matter of fact I have three friends that delivered an IP 40 down the WA coast a couple of years ago in fairly choppy seas, and they have said they'd prefer never to go out in the ocean in one again. .... Same sort of problems- not much to hang on to, and no place to rest, and the hull form was too much like a power boat. The "motion" was uncomfortable.

I hope that most of the owners (of IP and pretty much all the boats on which one might set sail) DO understand the compromises inherent in their chosen make and model. All boats have their strong and weak features.

Regards,
Loren
 
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Nov 26, 2008
1,966
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Back in 2008, pre-crash, I had a chat with a jenneau dealer, a very successful dealer. He had been a catalina salesman when the catalina franchise folded. Catalina offered him a franchise. But he had to commit to buying a full line of their boats and hiring a full staff. Not with Jenn. He was selling 40 to 50 foot Jenns left and right in the middle of the crash with no catalina dealer within 200 miles
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
Things were easy back in the day when the new sailboat market was GROWING. When that happens, companies operate in the so-called 'abundance model' and things are easy. Salad days.

The sailboat market in the USA has greatly contracted. And the remaining market has changed. Anyone still making the same type of boats that made 20 years ago is doomed. IP, Sabre, C&C, the list goes on. Great boats but they had their lunch eaten by more nimble companies.

The one company who impresses me for bucking this is Catalina. Their boats are basically unchanged, and still do (seemingly) well. I think due to two things: Great customer service, and thousands of move-up customers coming out of a used C25 or C27 into a big boat of the same known brand. Having ten thousand of those old tubs sailing still is a huge boon for them!
As a Catalina owner four times over I think you are right. Add to that the time I called Catalina looking for a part and Frank Butler answered the phone. First-rate service.
If I were a tattoo guy, (ink, not boat brand) you would find on me an X-ed out C16, followed by two X-ed out C22 tattoos, and a fresh C27 tattoo. There are more to come as well. :).

I'm branded
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
A few years ago a friend asked me and another guy to help bring his Catalina 380 up from Cabo to Long Beach. The "other guy" had sailed his Mariner 47, I think it was, from Seattle to Long Beach so had experience at sea. The 380 owner had sailed his boat to Mexico, so also had sea experience. Neither of those trips had I made. Anyway, it was mid-May--not the best time of the year for the Baja Bash because of springtime gales, but timing was driven by an insurance requirement for the boat be north of the latitude of Turtle Bay, Baja California, by June 1st. I had not been aboard the boat b/f arriving and was surprised at how poorly appointed it seemed to be for the trip. It's nearly a thousand nautical miles to Long Beach from Cabo, "up hill" all the way. One can expect to make 4.5 kt on average on its 39 hp Yanmar diesel, so-- an 8 to 10-day bash was likely. Diesel capacity could not safely support even 400 n.mi.--the distance to the first place to refuel along the peninsula--w/o loading 20+ gallons more in Jerry cans with no good, secure way to mount them. There was no place for the crew "to sleep"; one big double bed under the cockpit for the skipper, plus a fairly small vee-berth piled full of "stuff" for us. A small, inadequate fridge, and absolutely no place to lay out a chart book below. There was a tiny "cocktail table" on starboard side where the skipper mounted his computer with e-navigation materials. Skipper advised not lean on it 'cause "it might collapse." I could go on for another page about what I saw as inadequacies in design and preparation, but I won't. The Catalina 380 is a very pretty boat, roomy for perhaps one couple, and no doubt comfortable for the owners. But as a well appointed ocean cruiser---forget it. I did not make the trip; we were weathered out on two tries to get even 20 n.mi. up the Baja coast. Later, the skipper found another crew who got a reasonable weather window and eventually brought her home.:yeah:
 
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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
There were not a lot of sail boats at the YVR show this year, although there were some monstrous power offerings that likely had their own postal codes, and the indoor show had pretty much the full line of Nordic tugs. The design of which reminds me of a '62 Buick.
 
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
New boats are expensive and there are a lot of good used boats out there and so that market is growing. I remember seeing many Island Packets in the Bahamas. They were built to withstand Mother Nature, were comfortable inside and the shoal draft fit the skinny waters there. IP has been in financial trouble for more than a few years, I have heard and of course the fall of the economy 8 years ago didn't help. The local IP dealer in my area was doing quite well, actually (before the bust). Unfortunately he had an untimely death and it went downhill after that along with the economy. Large markets are doing better with expensive boat sales in the U.S., but small markets are suffering. But, things are getting better as the economy improves - ever so slowly. Europe has always been strong. They have the reputation of selling many more boats at boat shows there than in the U.S.
 
May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
Some manufacturing facilities schedule 2 or 3 weeks a year for plant maintenance and employee vacations.
I know in previous threads discussions on the demise of sail boat manufacturers were blamed on economics, but the boat market in general does not support this assumption. My observation is that as the population ages people are moving to power to stay on the water.
Some of the savvy builders saw this trend early and began supporting their sailboat building with power boats.
It started with Hinckley, then Sabre, J boats, and now Tartan (their only showing at recent boat shows was their new Legacy line). These boats can have a 2 year wait and the median cost is north of $800k. My yard builds the MJM and they are pumping out 8-12 boats a month and recently moved to a bigger facility to build a 55 footer due to demand.
I happen to be friends with the principal owner of Sabre and he told me they hadn't sold a sailboat in 3 years back in 2012, but in touring the factory for their powerboats, they had 8 boats under construction and a backlog for their biggest boats of 18 months.
I can count 8 of our sailing friends who have moved to powerboats in the past 3 years.
Hunter was saved by a luxury powerboat builder and Catalina stopped building to spec back in 2011. To keep their skilled staff, they are building Geminis to make sure there is enough work to keep building sailboats.
With the cost of fueling up a power boat in the hundreds of dollars I don't think that sailboats will disappear any time soon.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
S
With the cost of fueling up a power boat in the hundreds of dollars I don't think that sailboats will disappear any time soon.
This comparison is only valid if the sailboat owner does not buy new sails regularly. Factor in the replacement of a suite of sails on a 40 footer every 4-5 years and you actually get pretty close to the cost of fuel burned.
 
Jan 25, 2011
2,391
S2 11.0A Anacortes, WA
A new catalina 355 for $260K +-.......My wife had to pick me up off the floor. Then I had to pick her up off the floor. But, when we renormalized our brains, I have the original receipt (from PO) for our S2 36 and it cost $88K brand new back in 1978 and it was pretty much a bare boat. I paid 25k for the boat in 2011 and put another 25K into it and it also looks close to new. OK, the bilges aren't as they looked 36 yrs ago but hey! This retired airplane engineer can't afford a new boat...Well, I could but lets just say it wouldnt make financial sense....The S2 is refitted and we like it. (My third S2)..I should look at the Hunters and the French sometime but I would sure recommend an older used quality boat to someone (on a budget) who has the time and knowledge to do their own work.
 
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Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
New boats are expensive and there are a lot of good used boats out there and so that market is growing.
When entering the "boat ownership" stage of this recreation (instead of chartering) I had many mentors who strongly discouraged consideration of the purchase of a new boat. They thought it a waste of money as well as an expression of impulse buying--as in the manner many power boats are purchased, as is also true for cars. Get a boat only a few years old they advised, the previous owner will have equipped it, more or less, and thus I'd save a bunch of money. In those initial 11 years of boating in FL I knew only one fellow in our sailing club who had bought a new boat, a Morgan 44, "right out of the box." The boat I have now followed that prescription to a tee when purchased. A four-year-old, well equipped boat; thus practically new, and strongly discounted. True, it's less expensive initially to do that, but I question whether or not, over the long haul, it's a better "strategy" than the purchase of a new one if affordable. Most used boats even if fairly new have maintenance issues b/c many first-time owners simply do not know how to keep an expensive boat, and thus suck value out of them with poor up-keep. You may certainly pay less, but in many ways you're getting less as well. [For example, crazed port lights, smelly heads, electrolysis damage, soiled & stretched-out sails, scratches & gouges inside, sometimes water damage, poorly maintained diesels even w/ low hours, & often obsolete electronics.] But a new boat is a big, big financial commitment, so--one had better like it a lot!!
 
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Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
A few years ago a friend asked me and another guy to help bring his Catalina 380 up from Cabo to Long Beach. The "other guy" had sailed his Mariner 47, I think it was, from Seattle to Long Beach so had experience at sea. The 380 owner had sailed his boat to Mexico, so also had sea experience. Neither of those trips had I made. Anyway, it was mid-May--not the best time of the year for the Baja Bash because of springtime gales, but timing was driven by an insurance requirement for the boat be north of the latitude of Turtle Bay, Baja California, by June 1st. I had not been aboard the boat b/f arriving and was surprised at how poorly appointed it seemed to be for trip. It's nearly a thousand nautical miles to Long Beach from Cabo, "up hill" all the way. One can expect to make 4.5 kt on average on its 39 hp Yanmar diesel, so-- an 8 to 10-day bash was likely. Diesel capacity could not safely support even 400 n.mi.--the distance to the first place to refuel along the peninsula--w/o loading 20+ gallons more in Jerry cans with no good, secure way to mount them. There was no place for the crew "to sleep"; one big double bed under the cockpit for the skipper, plus a fairly small vee-berth piled full of "stuff" for us. A small, inadequate fridge, and absolutely no place to lay out a chart book below. There was a tiny "cocktail table" on starboard side where the skipper mounted his computer with e-navigation materials. Skipper advised not lean on it 'cause "it might collapse." I could go on for another page about what I saw as inadequacies in design and preparation, but I won't. The Catalina 380 is a very pretty boat, roomy for perhaps one couple, and no doubt comfortable for the owners. But as a well appointed ocean cruiser---forget it. I did not make the trip; we were weathered out on two tries to get even 20 n.mi. up the Baja coast. Later, the skipper found another crew who got a reasonable weather window and eventually brought her home.:yeah:
I dunno about other people, but I've never considered the average Catalina, Beneteau, or Jeanneau I've ever seen at a boat show in the US to be an "ocean cruiser." I thought they were always just coastal cruisers. And, most of the other boats we are mourning that are defunct, like O'day.

But again, I can't afford anything anyway; even the smallest Beneteau, the First 20, is like $80K. That would probably be where I wanted to be, because it would be a good Portsmouth racer on our lake.
 
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