Parting out H170 in AZ
- Thread starter Mik
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If only the topside is cracked it may be quite fixible to a sailing boat. It may not be as hard to fix as you might think. It may not look pretty, but you can grind out the cracks and glue them back together with epoxy as recommended by Hunter. See their manual.
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The subject indicated the boat - H170... Hunter 170.
The boat is fine except for the floor. There are cracks in various places in the cockpit seats and coaming that would be easy to fix. The hull has avoided cracks so far and is clean and unblemished. She has the spinnaker gear and an unused spinnaker. The furling jib needs a stitch or two and the main is well used. Mast, boom, and blades are all clean and unblemished. Cover needs to be restitched in some places. the bow cuddy cover is fine but the sockets are sun burned and brittle, but functional. All the blocks are harken and clean and show light use.
The PO sliced out the luan skin from the rudder mount forward on either side to the hump to the cuddy. Unfortunately The floor support plywood is broken on one side next to the hump. The foam has been exposed to the sun and is also brittle.
Plan A was to dump pour-able expanding foam under the floor for support. Then fiberglass in a plywood floor running the cloth up the seat a few inches. Good fairing and some topsides paint and mess about in her when not racing my Santana 20.
What supports the center? Is there a run of structural fiberglass encasing the daggerboard trunk that supports it?
How much space is between the floor and the hull?
Would a cloth, plywood, cloth sandwich be stiff enough to support the floor without the foam filling?
The boat is fine except for the floor. There are cracks in various places in the cockpit seats and coaming that would be easy to fix. The hull has avoided cracks so far and is clean and unblemished. She has the spinnaker gear and an unused spinnaker. The furling jib needs a stitch or two and the main is well used. Mast, boom, and blades are all clean and unblemished. Cover needs to be restitched in some places. the bow cuddy cover is fine but the sockets are sun burned and brittle, but functional. All the blocks are harken and clean and show light use.
The PO sliced out the luan skin from the rudder mount forward on either side to the hump to the cuddy. Unfortunately The floor support plywood is broken on one side next to the hump. The foam has been exposed to the sun and is also brittle.
Plan A was to dump pour-able expanding foam under the floor for support. Then fiberglass in a plywood floor running the cloth up the seat a few inches. Good fairing and some topsides paint and mess about in her when not racing my Santana 20.
What supports the center? Is there a run of structural fiberglass encasing the daggerboard trunk that supports it?
How much space is between the floor and the hull?
Would a cloth, plywood, cloth sandwich be stiff enough to support the floor without the foam filling?
Thats not so good. Here are some points to consider.
The plastic is Luran and the only structural glue is Plexus MA300 which is an epoxy that has solvents to open up the plastic for a bond.
The strength of the hull is from the 3 layers, the plastic, the foam and the fiberglass on the inside of the hull.
So the best repair would involve bonding something to the foam and patch you make up and then getting the patch bonded to the plastic. I am a bit out of bounds of experience here, but I have a thought.
Make up get a pre-made fiberglass panel (do they make them?).
Cut the panel to the hole.
Bond the foam to the panel, 3M5200 comes to mind as a good choice.
Use Plexus MA300 and glass cloth to bond the Luran edges to the glass panel.
I am thinking you can likely get away with gluing stuff together with the 5200. While the bond strength of the 5200 to the plastic is not like to wood for or fiberglass, it will likely do fine for this boat. I doubt you will be doing serious hard beating on the boat. Not like you can sink it either as I believe someone said it has 1500 lbs of bouyancy, you can not sink it.
It can be fixed, but I am not sure if the time and cost is worth it. That is for you to figure out.
I will add one observation. I found mine had the floor plastic separated from the foam. This made it move a lot. I think someone tryed to fix that the wrong way. I just drilled holes and put 5200 in (gorilla glue can work too).
Hope that helps. Just keep in mind I am learning my 170 is my first boat and I have not even had it in the water yet so my experience level is not too high. I live in NJ so it is not quite boating weather yet.
The plastic is Luran and the only structural glue is Plexus MA300 which is an epoxy that has solvents to open up the plastic for a bond.
The strength of the hull is from the 3 layers, the plastic, the foam and the fiberglass on the inside of the hull.
So the best repair would involve bonding something to the foam and patch you make up and then getting the patch bonded to the plastic. I am a bit out of bounds of experience here, but I have a thought.
Make up get a pre-made fiberglass panel (do they make them?).
Cut the panel to the hole.
Bond the foam to the panel, 3M5200 comes to mind as a good choice.
Use Plexus MA300 and glass cloth to bond the Luran edges to the glass panel.
I am thinking you can likely get away with gluing stuff together with the 5200. While the bond strength of the 5200 to the plastic is not like to wood for or fiberglass, it will likely do fine for this boat. I doubt you will be doing serious hard beating on the boat. Not like you can sink it either as I believe someone said it has 1500 lbs of bouyancy, you can not sink it.
It can be fixed, but I am not sure if the time and cost is worth it. That is for you to figure out.
I will add one observation. I found mine had the floor plastic separated from the foam. This made it move a lot. I think someone tryed to fix that the wrong way. I just drilled holes and put 5200 in (gorilla glue can work too).
Hope that helps. Just keep in mind I am learning my 170 is my first boat and I have not even had it in the water yet so my experience level is not too high. I live in NJ so it is not quite boating weather yet.
Thanks for the reply. Plexus is too expensive for the entire repair. Perhaps I can Plex the cloth edges to the seats, and then resin the rest. There will be lots of cloth and epoxy.. looks like a trip to my favorite shop "Sticky Stuff" will be in order.
I agree that the Plexus can to too pricey for the value of the boat. I guess the glass resin will bond to the foam, you would have to worry about chemicals melting it or too much heat. You could just bond glass around the edge with the epoxy, work in small areas cause it sets fast, leave the stuff over the hole loose and use resin to bond that.
My thoughts are that it does not need to a perfect bond. It is not like it is holding things together or keeping the boat from sinking. It just needs to hold to give some structure to take you and your passengers weight and some bouncing around. As long as the bottom is good and the stuff holding the rigging is good the boat is going to work and be fun to sail. You want water tight on the top just because you do not want water inside adding extra weight and the screws for the mast and other parts have to get tight and not keep spinning.
My thoughts are that it does not need to a perfect bond. It is not like it is holding things together or keeping the boat from sinking. It just needs to hold to give some structure to take you and your passengers weight and some bouncing around. As long as the bottom is good and the stuff holding the rigging is good the boat is going to work and be fun to sail. You want water tight on the top just because you do not want water inside adding extra weight and the screws for the mast and other parts have to get tight and not keep spinning.
How much did you pay for that boat?
Resin and hardner will attack foam.
I would have said walk away from that boat.
When photographing you need to remove mast, boom, etc so everyone could get a better picture of your area to be repaired.
Resin and hardner will attack foam.
I would have said walk away from that boat.
When photographing you need to remove mast, boom, etc so everyone could get a better picture of your area to be repaired.
Thats not helpful.
Original poster...do you want to fix it or sell the parts? Tell us a little bit about your experience with epoxy repairs. Its really just a deck/core replacement. There's a bunch of good youtube videos of core replacement. Youll clean the edges, remove all the foam, put new foam down, reskin. While you are reskinning, put some hiking strap backer plates in or mounts for metal bars for hiking.
Great exciting project. Good luck.
You need the new foam and epoxy to be compatible.
The big issue is going to be the bonding of whatever to the asa plastic hull.
It might not be a bad idea to look for another pos, and mix and match upper/lower sections, do skin grafts, etc.
She was worth what I paid - with the new spinnaker, sprit, and galvanized trailer. I have used a spinnaker I got from ebay on my Buccaneer 18 for a while and now I have a sprit...
I will give it a go when it warms up a bit next month and see if she can support a campaign. Thanks for the tips. I will toss out some pics when I have some progress. My Biggest glass job but no riskit - no biscuit..
Before anything done a conversation between us is suggested. Send me a private message and we will arrange a time to talk. I have to think what I would do as I have never seen such in all these years. I do know what the original problem was. Afterwards it will be up to you what to do. The boat design itself is good but my preference was to build out of fiberglass. I was over ruled.
I was asked to respond in detail by several due to the severity of the damages.
First, Acetone, goo gone, resin mixed with hardner in a liquid state, etc. will attack foam and ACP.
Please do not confuse Plexsus with epoxy as it is two different materials.
Epoxy to me is basically a filler and movement or a hull that flexes some may crack it as it is not a structural item
in repairs in my books. Plus some epoxies are better than others why I use Watertite by Interlux as it takes a long time to cure and very durable in my books.
You can mix plexsus with fiberglass in repairs but remember drying time is quick. It is a styrene based product that is a plastic welder in layman's terms.
I speak in layman's terms as the fancy words mean squat to most. I am not an engineer but was involve in design, sales and repairs first learning repair from the man who started this process and later with Eddie Breeden who was in charge at Hunter Warranty whom we use to talk about repairs staying in touch with the founder of this process.
First, I would liked to have seen photos of the boat from stem to stern both sides of the hull and the hull to deck joint. Something tells me this boat may have taken a major hit but I cannot tell plus the poster has not gotten back to this thread. In addition, it also appears to be drill holes into the cockpit deck which leads me to think the floor separated and the original owner may have not repaired the floor correctly ending up tearing a major portion of the ACP skin or plastic skin away. That was major mistake. Also note during construction the ACP materials are large sheets of plastic that are molded and then attached. In addition, if the boat was left out in the elements as what may have occurred, I would stated walk away unless the boat was a freebie with title work given so one could sell parts and trailer. Either way, the cost of materials will be costly and the amount of hours to repair will be enormous. I suggest waiting till warmer weather permitting unless inside a heated space with VENTING OF THE FUMES. In addition, you will need to purchase resin rollers
The first thing one must do is to drill holes at each end of every crack to mitigate the extension of the cracks with a 1/8 inch bit and going thru the plastic skin which is 3/16 inch. Then assess if that crack is to the foam only which I would cut a V in the plastic with a Dremel and then add plastic welder or plexsus. I would suggest taping area off and spray either with a black or grey spray paint to see if there are any valleys when wet sanding. Please do not use anything less than 250 grit.
If the crack goes thru the deck, then I would cut some of it away to include 1/4 to 1/2 inch under the plastic skin. Then in small strips of fiberglass immersed with plexsus, I would lay one layer pushing it under the skin to make sure there is contact between the two and let dry. This gives you a platform for bonding the crack and then you can start laying after dry time with other glass immersed with plexsus. The last layer should be plexsus only and then follow sanding as mentioned above. I would also do this along the edge of the floor where parts of the skin was removed so you will have structural integrity.
As for the floor, I would not use plexsus as it will not spread evenly. I would go ahead and fiberglass the floor in sections using vinyl ester resin with hardner but warm temps are needed as forumulations have changed in
the last 15 years. No more than 3 layers. I would use resin rollers to smooth out each layer of glass keeping the roller clean with acetone and it will also push out air bubbles. Let each layer dry and dry sand cleaning up each time. One thing to be careful, do not let the resin/hardner come in touch with the ACP plastic skin or it will melt it and that include acetone. Three layers should be enough for a 3/16 inch depth. Again I would then spray the paint and sand the last layer which will show any holes or small valleys which to add an epoxy filler. Sand smooth. Then apply either gel coat or a plastic paint by Krylon. Gel coat application is more complicated plus the drying time is crucial. May be more coast with that application. Then go with the other repairs between the glass and ACP using Plexsus and again if fiberglassing is needed, use the plexsus emmersed with fiberglass. This will be time consuming and costly any way you go.
I think it may have been @BobbyFunn who used a west brothers system plastic compatible materials that I am not familiar with but if it was done over a year ago, please advise how it went and repairs holding. Like I said, I respect those who use other materieals reporting back what or what not worked as Bobbyfunn did. I think it was him.
Personally, I would not have touched that boat but the decision is up to the individual to make. Please if you do take on the is project, be safe and let us know how you are doing so we can know what is going on and to advise if needed.
First, Acetone, goo gone, resin mixed with hardner in a liquid state, etc. will attack foam and ACP.
Please do not confuse Plexsus with epoxy as it is two different materials.
Epoxy to me is basically a filler and movement or a hull that flexes some may crack it as it is not a structural item
in repairs in my books. Plus some epoxies are better than others why I use Watertite by Interlux as it takes a long time to cure and very durable in my books.
You can mix plexsus with fiberglass in repairs but remember drying time is quick. It is a styrene based product that is a plastic welder in layman's terms.
I speak in layman's terms as the fancy words mean squat to most. I am not an engineer but was involve in design, sales and repairs first learning repair from the man who started this process and later with Eddie Breeden who was in charge at Hunter Warranty whom we use to talk about repairs staying in touch with the founder of this process.
First, I would liked to have seen photos of the boat from stem to stern both sides of the hull and the hull to deck joint. Something tells me this boat may have taken a major hit but I cannot tell plus the poster has not gotten back to this thread. In addition, it also appears to be drill holes into the cockpit deck which leads me to think the floor separated and the original owner may have not repaired the floor correctly ending up tearing a major portion of the ACP skin or plastic skin away. That was major mistake. Also note during construction the ACP materials are large sheets of plastic that are molded and then attached. In addition, if the boat was left out in the elements as what may have occurred, I would stated walk away unless the boat was a freebie with title work given so one could sell parts and trailer. Either way, the cost of materials will be costly and the amount of hours to repair will be enormous. I suggest waiting till warmer weather permitting unless inside a heated space with VENTING OF THE FUMES. In addition, you will need to purchase resin rollers
The first thing one must do is to drill holes at each end of every crack to mitigate the extension of the cracks with a 1/8 inch bit and going thru the plastic skin which is 3/16 inch. Then assess if that crack is to the foam only which I would cut a V in the plastic with a Dremel and then add plastic welder or plexsus. I would suggest taping area off and spray either with a black or grey spray paint to see if there are any valleys when wet sanding. Please do not use anything less than 250 grit.
If the crack goes thru the deck, then I would cut some of it away to include 1/4 to 1/2 inch under the plastic skin. Then in small strips of fiberglass immersed with plexsus, I would lay one layer pushing it under the skin to make sure there is contact between the two and let dry. This gives you a platform for bonding the crack and then you can start laying after dry time with other glass immersed with plexsus. The last layer should be plexsus only and then follow sanding as mentioned above. I would also do this along the edge of the floor where parts of the skin was removed so you will have structural integrity.
As for the floor, I would not use plexsus as it will not spread evenly. I would go ahead and fiberglass the floor in sections using vinyl ester resin with hardner but warm temps are needed as forumulations have changed in
the last 15 years. No more than 3 layers. I would use resin rollers to smooth out each layer of glass keeping the roller clean with acetone and it will also push out air bubbles. Let each layer dry and dry sand cleaning up each time. One thing to be careful, do not let the resin/hardner come in touch with the ACP plastic skin or it will melt it and that include acetone. Three layers should be enough for a 3/16 inch depth. Again I would then spray the paint and sand the last layer which will show any holes or small valleys which to add an epoxy filler. Sand smooth. Then apply either gel coat or a plastic paint by Krylon. Gel coat application is more complicated plus the drying time is crucial. May be more coast with that application. Then go with the other repairs between the glass and ACP using Plexsus and again if fiberglassing is needed, use the plexsus emmersed with fiberglass. This will be time consuming and costly any way you go.
I think it may have been @BobbyFunn who used a west brothers system plastic compatible materials that I am not familiar with but if it was done over a year ago, please advise how it went and repairs holding. Like I said, I respect those who use other materieals reporting back what or what not worked as Bobbyfunn did. I think it was him.
Personally, I would not have touched that boat but the decision is up to the individual to make. Please if you do take on the is project, be safe and let us know how you are doing so we can know what is going on and to advise if needed.
@JimInPB used epoxy for the motor mount with good looking results.
The posters for 170 seem to be really active, then fall off the SBO grid. There are many posters from several years back that are not posting about the 170 now, but still browse the forum. Id search them out.
I used Marinetex to repair the rudder mount by refilling the screw holes and drilling fresh new ones. That repair is about 4 years old and holds up well. I also used marinetex to fill in dock rash and the odd scratches from being left beached. Those also are holding up well.
Ive been very lucky to not have the kraken visit.
The posters for 170 seem to be really active, then fall off the SBO grid. There are many posters from several years back that are not posting about the 170 now, but still browse the forum. Id search them out.
I used Marinetex to repair the rudder mount by refilling the screw holes and drilling fresh new ones. That repair is about 4 years old and holds up well. I also used marinetex to fill in dock rash and the odd scratches from being left beached. Those also are holding up well.
Ive been very lucky to not have the kraken visit.
Dave, would it be ok to use layup resin so that the layers dont need to be sanded. Then, after all the layers are done apply normal gelcoat with hardner? This final gelcoat then usually gets sanded down during finishing. After that any paint or nicer gelcoat woyld work.
The rudder and centerboard are plain vanilla resin and glass. Those repairs are also holding up well. Gellcoat is MUCH more resistant to hitting the sandy bottoms than the paint i had on it.
I found using resin rollers really helped smoothing out and getting air bubbles out too. The first two sandings are really briefbto knock out quickly what I call the rough spots.
As for gel coat if spraying, make sure you use PVA so wax can float to the top for drying and use of thinner if spraying. Just be careful not to spray onto the ACP plastic skin. Not sure if gelcoat works on top of ACP plastics
Gelcoat also needs a minimum temp of 64 degrees to dry. Also gel coat without any wax additive will not dry in open air. I think there is a wax spray you can use. Some experts have used wax paper too. Please if in a heated bldg that it is vented
As for gel coat if spraying, make sure you use PVA so wax can float to the top for drying and use of thinner if spraying. Just be careful not to spray onto the ACP plastic skin. Not sure if gelcoat works on top of ACP plastics
Gelcoat also needs a minimum temp of 64 degrees to dry. Also gel coat without any wax additive will not dry in open air. I think there is a wax spray you can use. Some experts have used wax paper too. Please if in a heated bldg that it is vented
Yea, I haven’t been here much lately. Unfortunately, I’ve been tied up with other things that couldn’t be put off. I do still try to take a quick look at the board once every week or two, so if someone needs something from me, they can drop me a PM & I should get it eventually. Bobby linked my name here, so that sent me a notification & got me to take a look at this thread. I’ll try to lend what useful info I have at hand.
First off, that is about the worst damage to ACP that I have ever seen. I would not want to try the classic crack repair methods with areas that big that are de-laminated. Repairs on that mess are going to be experimental, as I believe that you will be the first one to attempt repairs on an area that big in ACP.
The classic accepted repair methods use one of two epoxies, either Devcon or Plexus. These were recommended for repairing cracks in the Luran S skin. Some people have had luck using them with glass cloth to add strength to repairs of somewhat larger areas, but nothing like what I see pictured here. I believe that you will be in uncharted territory.
I have had good luck using West System epoxy on the limited number of repairs that I have done on my 170 & 212 (also an ACP hull). My repairs have been limited to less than 1 square foot at a time. My 170 lives in South Florida, so freezing is not an issue & neither is 100+ degree weather. You can find part 1 & part 2 of my motor mount repair if you look here - https://hunter.sailboatowners.com/mods.php?task=model&mid=11&mn=170
You can also find my post about installing combination cup/rod holders on that same page. That involved taking a hole saw to the boat. The slug that I removed is pictured with a scale, so you can see how thick the different materials in the sandwich are.
That hull is mostly made out of 3 things. The outer hull is a plastic called Luran S. It is made by BASF. It is commonly used to make car bumper covers & hot tub shells. BASF lists a fair amount of good info on it. The inner shell is a thin piece of fiberglass. Between the two is foam. When all 3 are bonded together well, the resulting sandwich is strong. There are also some wooden backing plates inside the sandwich in key places where support is needed (like the rudder gudgeon).
When doing large repairs on that boat, I would not want to add too much weight. It’s like a 650# hull, so adding 100# is substantial & adding 200 would seem excessive.
If I were to repair a 170 with that amount of cockpit damage, I would probably cut all the Luran out of the floor of the cockpit & maybe up the sides of the seats about 2”. I would replace it with glass cloth, probably a single layer of 1708 hybrid cloth with the matt side facing the foam. I would use the same West epoxy that worked for me in my motor mount repair & I would feather the glass into the surrounding Luran with at least an inch of overlap. If that comes out well, then I would tape off the Luran & gel coat the new fiberglass. If it felt flimsy, I would then add a second layer of 1708 before the gel coat. That would be my game plan. I would budget 2 weekends for the project.
If you are going to try to make that repair, make sure that the foam is Bone Dry before you start. Since you are in Chandler, that shouldn’t be to hard for you to arrange.
If you do decide to throw in the towel & part out the boat, I would probably be interested in most of what you have that fits in boxes & ships easily via UPS, assuming that the price is right. If I were in your shoes & I had the time, I would probably try to fix the boat. The repair materials are probably a few hundred dollars. It’s not a gigantic investment. I am going to assume that your boat is primarily going to see use on Lake Pleasant. Even if your repairs are half as good as new, I would not hesitate to use it there. I would expect properly executed repairs to be at least as strong as new, with maybe 50# added to the original boat weight. It should be a great boat for Lake Pleasant. You will probably want to get a boom tent.
When I lived in Phoinix, West Marine had a location at Bell Road & 43’d Ave, so the same epoxy I used, shouldn’t be that tough for you to find. It would probably be cheaper to order the glass cloth from one of the internet guys. The only reason I am not recommending getting the less expensive epoxy from the internet guys is because I had good luck with the stuff from west on my boats already & I don’t know how Luran will respond to the other epoxy formulations.
If I were you, I would keep that boat covered. That AZ sun really eats stuff up.
Good luck. Let us know how you make out.
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Plexsus is not an epoxy. Others have referenced this to a Plastic Welder. Please understand the difference. Remember that even Watertite which is a two part epoxy says on the can it is a filler. Others in my industry said the same thing
@JimInPB
I appreciate your response. We may disagree on specific materials but tend to agree on others. It seems we are on the same page with repairs and removal of all ACP in the cockpit floor. Great to hear from you
@JimInPB
I appreciate your response. We may disagree on specific materials but tend to agree on others. It seems we are on the same page with repairs and removal of all ACP in the cockpit floor. Great to hear from you