NO for Tukki Bird

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Its a decision to make.

The choice is simple.....whether you want to go sailing or whether you want to have fun rebuilding a boat. If it is a true project boat, you cant do both. From a dollar point of view, it will probably never be worth what you put into a project boat. Then again, you cant put a price on a hobby. If its sailing that you want to do, the bad news is that you will have to have enough money to buy a boat in running/sailing condition and just have to invest in cosmetic surgery from time to time, but at least you are sailing. I have owned/worked on 2 project boats in my lifetime because I wanted a boat bigger than I could afford. In both cases, I worked on each one for a few years each then sold them at a loss and bought a smaller boat that I could sail from 'Day 1'. I missed the sailing part, and soon the dream wore out also. And, I always regretted those years of 'no sailing'. I am probably amongst the vast majority of 'rebuilders'. If I didnt waste my time and money on project boats, I would have had the final boat of my choice about 5 years earlier then I did. For most, the solution would be to just buy a smaller boat and gradually work up. Then there are some that have more perserverence than others. Ross is one of them, but he is a rare breed. Ross did the whole rebuild thing...he would be the best to ask about time and money.ROSS. where are you? Tony B

 

[Stu Jackson]

Another reference source

is Don Casey's "This Old Boat." Many of the points of view are well summarized in the first few chapters of this well written and informative book.

 

[higgs]

Some truths - IMHO

Price: Virually all boats are financial losers regardless of age. When it comes to selling, rare is the owner who gets back what they put in. One advantage for many old boatowners is that the money gets put into the boat over a period of years, instead of all at once. Unlike payments, if your a little short this summer, you can always buy that chart plotter next year and still go sailing now. If you have payments, you will have to keep working to pay off the boat.Fixxer uppers do not need to be trashed boats that cannot be sailed. A few projects each year and in a few years the boat begins to approach what its owner hopes - all the while being used a lot. If one doubts the soundness off older vessels one would do well to take a look at mags like Good Old Boat and Attitudes and Latitudes to see how many old boats are off cruising all over the world. A 30 year old Valient 32 is a better founded vessel than the vast majority of 32s coming off of today's production lines and a lot cheaper. Fixxer uppers are not for people who don't have time and/or do not enjoy physical labor.

 

[ellis]

Old Woodie

Here is an example of a boat that is over 40 years old. The love and care that was put in to this boat is obvious. It was designed by a man with a pencil, not some computer program. I would not hesitate to sail this boat anywhere. Boats like this have sailed around the world and will continue to do so for decades to come. Wooden boats have been around since the dawn of time. Fiberglass and composites are just young pups in the world of sailboats. There is nothing wrong with a well-cared for older boat.Give me a Good Woodie Any Day ;D

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Higgs

I probably should have given a better definition of a "project boat". The same thing applies to what some of us call a "fixer upper". Generally, the term used by most brokers "needs TLC" usually means the boat is sound and in good sailing and motoring condition, but needs lots of cosmetic work and some misc replacements like lines and halyards, but over all it is very usuable. This is the kind of boat that one can do 'projects' on little at a time. Usually when I refer to a boat as a "Project Boat" it usually means that you cannot motor or sail it. It needs a little bit or sometimes a lot of everything. These are the kinds of boats that cost much more to get back into working condition than one can ever expect to see his money on. Example...I buy a 25 year old boat that needs TLC at the market value of #25K. I invest $5 into and sell it 5 years later, I probably will still only get $25K for it. On the other hand, I buy the same age, make , model etc as a project boat this time for $10K. In 5 years I probably spent $15 rebuilding and replacing stuff, it still is no where near done and it still is only worth $10K because it still is not complete. Now, I made these figures up, but I'm probably not too far from reality on most project boats. I used to do a lot of boat work in marinas and yards. I have also seen many of what I call 'basket cases' in which the owner is paying slip fees and yard fees for years in addition to parts and still have not sailed it yet. Rebuilding is definately not for everyone. It takes a lot of know how to work on a boat. Its not like a house, and most do not have the skill, knowledge, tools or time to do it properly. Newbe's only think they do, and thats whaat gets them into trouble. IMHO Tony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Ellis

"Give me a Good Woodie Any Day".....hmmmmm did you hear that from my wife?

 

[Jeff]

Ross

Yes, there are stunning old boats. I was refering to the average boat and average buyer. My mistake, as most on this board are not average.When you rebuild a vessel from hull up, you are no longer average.

 

[Waffle]

Ross in FLA

new verse old liveability. Would you put your boat up against a Catalina 250 for liveability?How about a Peacfic Seacraft 24 for strength? I like the 1979 Oday 25? Nice wood bulkhead chainplates. Make sure the chainplates are sealed good. Very strong? Na...

 

[ellis]

good un it's a wood one

sailortonybdamn bud, you left me wide open to a yo mama joke. ;D

 

[sailaway78]

Costs vs fun

Waffle,I have some very good friends who are on their second brand new Hunter. First was a 33, that was sunk by Katrina. Second is their current 36, which is the replacement boat. They have had to spend more money on either one of these than I have invested in my 28. Both have been much more trouble than my 28. And my 28 has towed them back to port. I said that some can't a afford a new boat, and I fit into that catagory. I did not have to spend a lot of money on on repairs for the S2. But I have paid for no labor on it. Which was my point. I have a very good boat, which I trust to go anywhere under virtually any conditions. And under virtually any conditions means just that. I rode out tropical storm Cindy, which was just one or two miles per hour short of being a hurricane, on this boat. With no damage. I do all my own work, partly because I am a cheapskate, and partly because I don't trust many who call themselves marine experts. I also enjoy working on my boat. Some enjoy doing the work on their own boats, even if they can afford to have it done. They do it because they want to do it. The owner of the boat is much more a factor in the condition of a boat, than it's age. And maint. costs are not that much higher on an older boat that has been kept up. Normally the two single biggest costs on a boat are the diesel and the sails. The life of both of these depends largely on the care given them. It still all comes down to how much money you have, how you want to spend it, and how much work you want to do yourself. Buy a new boat, or completely rebuild a boat like Ross, or build the entire boat from scratch. Most of us fit somewhere between these extremes. But each person has to consider their financial situation, their needs and their desires.

 

[John5961]

old vs. new

It's really interesting reading all of the different opinions in this thread. I think everyone can probably make a pretty good case for his own argument.Here's my 2 cents on old vs. new I intend to retire in a year and buy a fairly new 32-34 footer in Brunswick, GA. In the mean time, my Fiancée wanted to learn how to sail, and I wasn't ready to invest a lot of money in a boat. I found an old boat (1978 Hunter 27) that was in very serviceable condition for a very reasonable price (under $8K) and have made a few upgrades to make it sail better and be a little more comfortable. Barbara is learning to sail and I am remembering some things I had forgotten. It is serving its purpose very well and I find that we both really enjoy our sailing time at the lake. In addition, we have had to make a few minor repairs which have made us more knowledgeable and sharpened my repair and maintenance skills. It should be pretty easy to sell when we are ready to make our move to the coast. When I am ready to move to the coast and buy "my last boat" I will willingly spend $60K - $80K for what I feel is a well found sailboat that will meet our needs at that time. In the meantime, the (much) less expensive Hunter 27 is perfect for our needs. There is room for everyone in this hobby. You don't have to be wealthy to enjoy sailing, although it doesn't hurt to have some discretionary income.

 

[John5961]

KER-MOR

Wow! What a beautiful boat. And they have a pretty ambitious plan for crusing too. What a way to spend your retirement. Unfortunately the term "wooden boat" scares the BeJebeers out of me.

 

[caguy]

A boat like that has a soul and just needs love.

In their case they completely refurbished the hull and replaced all of the bad wood 35 years after it was built. Its good for another 35 thats more good years than I have left.Another old boat with soul was Whisper owned by Hal and Margaret Roth. She was a 35 foot fiberglass sloop made in 1965. Recently sold for 60K. That one had a 4 foot gash in the hull that was repaired.

 

[Ross]

When waffle asked that question this morning I

was on the way out to work and planned a nice long answer for him. Fortunately most of my thoughts have been expressed in polite terms by others. I can tell you what I spent to completely rebuild Bietzpadlin. BTW Waffle I would consider Bietzpadlin to be as strong as any boat that is 30 feet long and weighs less than 10,000 pounds. Material cost including aquisition cost of the boat which included spars and four servicable sails was 5000 dollars delivered to my yard next to my house. I spent 5,500 for new Volvo 2001 model engine, fuel tank, fuel system, exhaust system, and cooling water system. My wheel steering system cost 650 dollars for an Edson quardrant and machine shop work on the wheel shaft and an antique six spoke bronze wheel. I spent about 4,000 for Airex core, corebond fiber glass and resins. There are 1000 dollars involved in new Lewmar windows and about another thousand for cypress lumber. I must have used 500 4 1/2 inch sanding disks at a buck each. There is about 1500 dollars for cushions. There is a very long list of items for less than 100 dollars each but total cost for a very fine completely custom built 30 foot boat was around 35,000 in the water. You may wonder how long I worked on it. 9 years. But for a bit of perspective, Nancy and I designed and built the dish cabinet and fold down table on the living room floor one winter. Another winter we built the coopered sliding hatch.We bought the boat on Thanksgiving day weekend in 1989. It was delivered in late winter 1990 when it became posible to get it out of the ice locker. We launched her in the summer of 1999 and have sailed her every year since. That is the short version of this story.

 

[Waffle]

Re:Costs vs fun

Nice and EasyI agree with every thing you said and I like the S2 boats I have seen. Price is a big factor and so is construction. Many of the older boats are built like shot (?) brick houses. The boat next to ne was a 1974 Pearson 36. The boat was built like a tank. There are lots of GREAT old boats out there where the price is lower.I have to say I am a new boat man BUT there is a place for older boats as long as they were keep up! I had a great 1992 Hunter but now I am in the hole big time on a newer bigger boat. I miss my small payment. You have to buy what you can afford and not get over head. Dock fees, insurance, maintenance cost all up quick!

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Ross !! you da man.

I knew you would come through for us. I figured you had every detail recorded somewhere. Its a whole lot better than someone speculating at the cost and time involved. I envy your perservierance. From others I have met, your price and time frame are more or less typical for that size project. Unfortunately, many people like myself, got in way over their head when i first started out. The cost and time element was way beyond anything I calculated. In my earlier posts, Im not saying that someone else shouldnt do it, I'm just saying that if they are new, they may be in for more than they bargained for. IMHO Tony B

 

[Ross]

TonyB,I have had the advantage of good heath and

Age on my side. The age gave me the years of experience I needed and my good health let me persist during the years when many of my contemporaries were having major health problems. I am only thirty years older the Bietzpadlin.

 

[sailaway78]

Just like to say

I will be the first to admit that I do not have the fortitude to spend years building, or rebuilding a boat. It isn't about the money, or skills. I think I have most of the necessary skills, and can always manage to scrounge up enough money for things I want. And it isn't just boats. I think this is why there are so many uncompleted projects for sale. There are boats, cars and houses on the market that are incomplete projects. Someone bit off more than they could chew. But my hat is off to those who can start and complete these projects. There is something to be said for completing a project like this. Has to be a great deal of pride, and personal satisfaction. I know a gentleman who spent eight years building his boat. And we on this board know of Ross and his completed project. So to these and any others like them, I tip my hat in admiration.

 

[Waffle]

Thanks Ross but I never asked

I think that great. You know every inch of that boat and that is a good thing!Me, I have been sailing and working to pay for sailing.

 

[Seattle Scott]

I did in water survey

First, I had surveyor do an in water survey to see if any "deal killers" conditions found. None were found so I did the "haul and hang" suvey a few days later. There was some rudder relamination/bulging. I got a rough estimate from the yard repair guy on the rudder and told the seller that survey ws not acceptable and I was dropping the offer to cover the repair. I bought the boat. The boat was in the low $40K range. In addition to the hull survey I had a rigging and engine survey. It was my first big boat and I was ignorant and paranoid about need for costly repairs. No regrets. PS: I took an "offer" form from the broker and modified it extensivly before submitting with my offer. I gave myself 10 day window for sea trial, and 20 day window for in water and haul out surveys and rigging and engine surveys. I added language that surveys had to be to "buyers sole satisfaction".