Yikes! Didn't they get acquire by, or merge with Hake Marine? Hake Marine redirects to Seaward Yachts. That website works.
News flash: cool fast boats sell.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
Both of my boys crew with me when they're home, and my 20 year old is part owner in the boat having invested some of his car money and sweat equity into her refurbishment.
My 20 year old son has already bought restored and sold on three cars since he turned 15. He asked for and received a mig welder for Christmas when he was just 16. My 17 year old is in the middle of restoring a 1990 Nissan 300ZX in my driveway. He has it so that it looks really nice. Now it just needs to run. I just hope he will get the replacement twin turbo engine out of my garage before the holidays. LOL
Maybe continued fallout from Irma? IP was acquired by Hake Marine last year if I recall.
I don't buy into that, at least not 100%. Slow leisure activities that have exploded in popularity in the past twenty years: snow shoeing, stand-up stand up paddle boarding, rock climbing, yoga, sea kayaking, lake kayaking, mall walking
)). For a least the first four, they conjure up images of healthy, athletic, smiling women. The kind I like to be with. All those activities got boosts of popularity when the equipment was modernized, including making the clothing much more stylish.Sailing should appeal to those people as they get older and can afford sailboats, but let's face it: The owning costs of a cruising sailboat is higher than chartering a few times a year. Smart money rents big sailboats, not big boat docking slips. Boat manufacturers should capture weekenders. The number of used daysailers is high, but that population is getting worn out and beat up. Walk the docks at your local marina - you'll see dozens of crappy, ugly, uncared for boats. Not something to aspire to. And new daysailers are ridiculously high-priced. A new O'day Mariner 19 (a simple family daysailer) will cost around $30K! We need much cooler sailboats at much lower prices!
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Jack, do the race boats have a large sail inventory or can they race effectively today with main jib and flying sail? I guess I was thinking to be a competitive racer the skipper had to have a large inventory to handle all wind conditions. Is that true?
Great question. Going upwind, modern non-overlapping fractional designs are a marvel of efficiency. With main and jib, they will be totally competitive in all normal racing wind conditions (5-25 knots). At the upper ranges, you first flatten the sails and then maybe take in a reef. But the jib stays put. Some very high wind locales (Sf bay) might see some boats with a smaller 95% headsail in place on the typical 105.
Of all the boats I currently race on, none of them change upwind sails in that wind range. The older design First 36.7 did, switching from a 140% genoa to a 105 blade in 16 knots.
Downwind, maybe a different story. Some with race or sail with one spinnaker, but some very competitive type might have 3 spins (Code 0, VMG, Runner). But that's the same for older boat types as well.
It translates pretty well to cruising. The only potential fly in the ointment is that this type of boat does NOT like to go downwind without a kite, which can spoil the plans of '2-sail' cruisers and racers. But other than that.... all good.
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Very true. It makes weekly beer can jib and main sailing difficult. However, distance racing with a chute is tons of fun, even short handed with technological improvements like top down furlers.
A nice middle ground are screacher type code 0s or code 00s, which really take the place of big genoa. You can put them up when the wind is light and sail nice speed up wind (though you have to foot off a few degrees). Downwind, they perform almost as well as a cruising chute on a broad reach. When the wind picks up, you can roll it up and roll out the jib.
The downside is that in some PHRF areas, they are not legal as they are not considered a jib (they don't fly from the headstay) nor are they spinnakers (not enough girth).
All easily done single handed.
Fractional, non-overlapping rigs have been considered 'state of the art' for about 20 years. There has not been a masthead race boat designed in that time. In addition, fractional boats with overlap have been designed and built in that period, but mostly to deal with headsail max size in PHRF.
As you move down into the cruising spectrum it might get a bit murky. The advantage only exists of the SA/D ratio stays good, and cruising boats are known to add serious poundage that can throw it off. And the ideal rigs often have TALL masts.
But in general yes.
Thanks, I'm really enjoying this thread. As a mid 40s guy I have to say that yes I would consider a new boat down the road, especially as my kids grow up and move out. I was a bit shocked a the new boat prices for small boats and have quickly learned that bigger in a used newer boat is probably more realistic.
From my point of view, yes! The masthead rig of the '70's with the large overlapping jibs was to a large extent the result of rating rules that didn't penalize for a large jib. Or said another way encouraged large overlapping jibs. Or look at the dingy world. Almost all fractional. Multi-hulls? Fractional. Get it? 150's are an aberration, not the norm.
Exactly. Ever wonder where the term 'rated sail area' comes from? It come from the old CCA and IRC rules that measured sail area as (J*I)/2 + (P*E)/2. How do you game that?? Make the main tiny and the headsail has big as you could. 'Free' sail area. 180%s used to be common. Now PHRF limits it to 150% without a penalty.
Rating rules always seem to be an evolution, not a revolution. If the change is too much too fast, too many boats become obsolete or nobody uses the rule. Think of all the old rules that have come and gone, CCA, IOR, MORC, the Ton classes, IRC, and probably others.
From my perspective, the problem with the larger race boats is that they do not age well. An old J24 or J22 can make a fine day sailor, even if it no longer competitive. What happens to the Pogo 36s in 7 or 8 years when they age out? Overkill for a day sailor and really not suitable for a cruising boat. Compare that to the old Pearson, C&C, Sabres and other "racer/cruisers" that can have a long life after the race circuit as a comfortable reasonably nimble coastal cruiser.
Of course there are always the Webb Chiles out there sailing Moore 24s and old IOR boats around the world solo or shorthanded. But, he is an exception, not the norm.
From my perspective, the problem with the larger race boats is that they do not age well. An old J24 or J22 can make a fine day sailor, even if it no longer competitive. What happens to the Pogo 36s in 7 or 8 years when they age out? Overkill for a day sailor and really not suitable for a cruising boat. Compare that to the old Pearson, C&C, Sabres and other "racer/cruisers" that can have a long life after the race circuit as a comfortable reasonably nimble coastal cruiser.
Of course there are always the Webb Chiles out there sailing Moore 24s and old IOR boats around the world solo or shorthanded. But, he is an exception, not the norm.
Ah rules! Yes the older ones (in particularly the IOR) were bad because they could be type-formed; building boats designed to exploit the rule (better rating) while not sailing slower. Newer ones, not so much.
Remember the Pogo 36 is NOT a race boat, it is a very comfortable blue-water cruiser. Yes it will terrorize a J/111 on distance races, but its at its heart a couples cruiser.
Parabolic skis are too easy. Whole mountains full of people that don't know how to turn, on all sorts of pieces and pairs of wood.
Yes, I have old straight skis. Right next to my "steel is real" rigid bicycle in the garage.
Also, my jib is hank-on.
Yes, I have old straight skis. Right next to my "steel is real" rigid bicycle in the garage.
Also, my jib is hank-on.
Well, hopefully we smarter as we get older.
Somewhere floating around in my house is a copy of the rating rules from the early 20th century for the Lake Yacht Racing Association on Lake Ontario. While it has been a few years since I looked at them, I remember not being particularly impressed.
My favorite rule was a measurement formula rule for an AC race (?). The answer to the formula was 42. I think mice were involved.
Yes, classic yachts are beautiful and elegant. Remember the J boats of yesterday were state of the art in their day.
Webb Chiles ... not the norm. Can't argue with that. I do admire his voyages and books, 'though.
Jackdaw's statement that the Pogo 36 not being a race boat should not be underestimated. We are discussing the value of speed for this and some other modern designs. But, from what Jackdaw has presented, is that it is fast AND a comfortable cruiser. I believe, from his descriptions, also easily handled. In other words, the Racer/Cruiser of the 70's reinvented for 2017. If a chunk of money fell in my lap, I would be looking at this genre of boats.
We have a couple of flat out racing boats in town tonight. There are 2 Open class 40's and a Mills 68, which are here for the Greenport Ocean/Bay Race for the Brooklyn Ocean Challenge Cup (Not a catchy name but there is a great history.) This was a shameless plug for out hometown event which is catching fire.
Jackdaw's statement that the Pogo 36 not being a race boat should not be underestimated. We are discussing the value of speed for this and some other modern designs. But, from what Jackdaw has presented, is that it is fast AND a comfortable cruiser. I believe, from his descriptions, also easily handled. In other words, the Racer/Cruiser of the 70's reinvented for 2017. If a chunk of money fell in my lap, I would be looking at this genre of boats.
We have a couple of flat out racing boats in town tonight. There are 2 Open class 40's and a Mills 68, which are here for the Greenport Ocean/Bay Race for the Brooklyn Ocean Challenge Cup (Not a catchy name but there is a great history.) This was a shameless plug for out hometown event which is catching fire.
The next America’s Cup racers are foiling monohulls... a mix of old and new... of course they are one design racers, but it is worth noting that they pulled a card from the old and a card from the new. I would allow surgery on my private parts to own one of those!
Perhaps people need the relativity AND the cutting edge. Gunboat didn’t sell many of those foiling 36 ft cats. The America’s Cup didn’t sell well with cats, but VOR did good with foiling mono’s. Not big, but good. Again, if I could have the space of a monohull with double the VMG like a foiler or even 50% better speed with a regular tri or cat, I would be there. I would still be in the secnd echelon, buying used because I cannot afford 300k.
Did you know that there are 80’s America’s Cup yachts that cost millions and sell for $100k? No, they are not good couples cruisers, but prices do come down. I hope plenty of people buy Pogo 36’s, Leopards, and other fast monos amd cats because they will be my next selection!
Perhaps people need the relativity AND the cutting edge. Gunboat didn’t sell many of those foiling 36 ft cats. The America’s Cup didn’t sell well with cats, but VOR did good with foiling mono’s. Not big, but good. Again, if I could have the space of a monohull with double the VMG like a foiler or even 50% better speed with a regular tri or cat, I would be there. I would still be in the secnd echelon, buying used because I cannot afford 300k.
Did you know that there are 80’s America’s Cup yachts that cost millions and sell for $100k? No, they are not good couples cruisers, but prices do come down. I hope plenty of people buy Pogo 36’s, Leopards, and other fast monos amd cats because they will be my next selection!