News flash: cool fast boats sell.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
I did, too. Small world, we had a ski house a few miles away. Thanks for the history lesson, much appreciated. Maybe the curves we think about are different: I remember the K2s - red, white and blue, right? after all those "nothing but black" Head skis. I thought of the curves as the ones first introduced at the edges, not the radical curves that came later. Doesn't matter though, is all good, thanks for the memories.
Despite the thread drift, I think the original intent was for someone to encourage Jackdaw to start manufacturing cool fast boats here in North America.
I am here to do just that! If you do it in Canada I will be the first investor too!
Remember that R&D stands for Rob and Duplicate so we can cut down the development costs a bit!
Dan
I am here to do just that! If you do it in Canada I will be the first investor too!
Remember that R&D stands for Rob and Duplicate so we can cut down the development costs a bit!
Dan
From a product planning perspective, not a great test as most of the results will come from people not in the market, which will skew the results to the point where there are not useful. Kinda like asking teenage boys what car they'd buy! ;^)
Yes Stu, I agree that innovation comes in many small steps and the progression to shaped skis was surely incremental and started much earlier. I mention the impact of Bode Miller in 1996 only in that it seemed like it was a watershed moment in the ski industry, which was truly revolutionary among retailers. I know it is unrelated to sailing, but the impact to the industry is relevant to sailing, and this discussion in particular, I think.
Walking down memory lane in skiing is one of my favorite topics! It's richer (for me anyway) than sailing. I started with wood skis, leather boots and Cubco bindings in 1969, progressed to my first fiberglass ski, Hart Cutlass, and Lange boots in high school. I was later on top of the world (literally in Aspen and Vail) with my K2 4 skis and matching red, white and blue Demetre sweater! Do you remember wind shirts!?!? The best times I ever had was skiing with my kids as they grew up skiing all over the northeast. My daughter was very active in ski racing into college at FIS level, but her talent wasn't quite good enough for competing at the NCAA level in the east. She eventually succumbed to injury (mcl tear), while not debilitating, it short-circuited her career in college. She had a few seasons in high school skiing at Killington Mtn. School, living down the road off Rte 100! Skiing was a lifestyle for us and still is for 3 of my 4 kids. The last is now living in Vietnam, of all places - a place I never would have dreamed of wanting to go back in 1969!
Walking down memory lane in skiing is one of my favorite topics! It's richer (for me anyway) than sailing. I started with wood skis, leather boots and Cubco bindings in 1969, progressed to my first fiberglass ski, Hart Cutlass, and Lange boots in high school. I was later on top of the world (literally in Aspen and Vail) with my K2 4 skis and matching red, white and blue Demetre sweater! Do you remember wind shirts!?!? The best times I ever had was skiing with my kids as they grew up skiing all over the northeast. My daughter was very active in ski racing into college at FIS level, but her talent wasn't quite good enough for competing at the NCAA level in the east. She eventually succumbed to injury (mcl tear), while not debilitating, it short-circuited her career in college. She had a few seasons in high school skiing at Killington Mtn. School, living down the road off Rte 100! Skiing was a lifestyle for us and still is for 3 of my 4 kids. The last is now living in Vietnam, of all places - a place I never would have dreamed of wanting to go back in 1969!
You can try for a bigger bite out of a small cookie, or you can bake your own large cookie and have the whole thing, at least for a while. Microsoft didn't start by making the then-state-the-art computing machines. Apple didn't enter the telephone business by trying to capture part of the "dumb-phone" market. Amazon didn't start out with a brick-and-mortar bookstore. All three companies created huge, new, transformative markets that they then dominated.
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When the dollars invested by Americans go to a boat it is overwhelmingly, and has been for decades, to powerboats. I conclude it is not a lack of money that inhibits the sailboat market but a huge preference for power. At our yacht club (and we don't have $500,000 mega yachts in our 191 slips) we had a recent presentation by a trade rep and even in the state of Washington with its Puget Sound and San Juan islands, sailboat registration was 3% of the total. That is skewed somewhat by the number of trailerable boats that made up a huge % of the total but it does represent the "niche" market that is the sailboat market. The cons that many of my powerboat friends list against sailboats include, when descending to the cabin it feels like walking into a cave, sailing is too much work, is the boat going to tip over (can't stand that one), it is so slow...can't it go faster than 6-8 kts, I don't have that much spare time I need to get where I'm going, and why do you need foul weather gear because I've never needed it on my power boat. I was an "observer" on a Predicted Log Race and it was conducted in 35 kt winds last March here in Puget Sound. The skipper wore a t-shirt, jeans and was barefoot. I had trouble staying awake during the three hour event. For the record I boat 12 months of the year but I do have a full enclosure and heat. At our recent Lake Union Boats Afloat Show in Seattle there were no new Marlow Hunters or Catalinas on display. There were Hanse, Beneteau, Jenneau and Bavaria. Didn't see any Pogos and even though I have owned four sailboats, not including the sail I had made for my homemade 11.5' kayak when I was 12, read this forum daily, and read everything sail or maritime I had never heard of Pogo until reading this thread. I guess my point is powerboating is healthy but sailboats are not and $ are not the main culprit for the lack of sailboat sales. Some of the preferences are just human nature. Those persons that prefer sailing are different than those who prefer powerboats. The trick is to identify those that prefer sailboats or more accurately perhaps, sailing. Is it speed, comfort, size, ease of handling, price or endurance.
Speed would seem to invite something handled by more than one person. Does the boat require a crew and multiple sails.
Comfort varies by region. South and SE might want AC. So cal typically dosen't need AC or heat. The PNW needs heat (to sail year round). The midwest and NE maybe heat and maybe AC depending when the boat is pulled for the winter.
Size might depend on family size. In my case I had four children one of whom was 6'6" one 6' 2" my wife 5'9" and me at 6'. Thus size mattered.
Ease of handling determined largely by to what purpose the boat is put. Racing = more sails more crew. Cruising less crew less sails. In my case I now do much single handing hence the in mast and roller furling, bow thruster and autopilot are terrific. The manufacturer has a difficult time accommodating all of those variables.
Speed would seem to invite something handled by more than one person. Does the boat require a crew and multiple sails.
Comfort varies by region. South and SE might want AC. So cal typically dosen't need AC or heat. The PNW needs heat (to sail year round). The midwest and NE maybe heat and maybe AC depending when the boat is pulled for the winter.
Size might depend on family size. In my case I had four children one of whom was 6'6" one 6' 2" my wife 5'9" and me at 6'. Thus size mattered.
Ease of handling determined largely by to what purpose the boat is put. Racing = more sails more crew. Cruising less crew less sails. In my case I now do much single handing hence the in mast and roller furling, bow thruster and autopilot are terrific. The manufacturer has a difficult time accommodating all of those variables.
Just to summarize, I do tend to agree with the idea that sailing is a tough sell in the US due to culture rather than finances. There seems to be little patience for something "slow" or something that requires skill and time to learn. Most of the sailors I know are at least 50. That makes me the kid in the group because I got my first sailboat at 30 and I'd been sailing off and on since childhood. Most people my age seem more interested in jet skis or power boats.
I don't know who said it so I can't give credit: "You get on a power boat to go somewhere but when you get on a sailboat you're already there." That exactly summarizes my feelings about sailing. I don't think most younger people understand this. If being on the lake was about getting to a destination then I'd have a power boat. If that's your goal then fine but for me it is not. I only rarely sail with a specific destination in mind. For me it's about relaxing and enjoying the scenery. It's about challenging myself to harness the wind as effectively as possible. Heck, there's even a part of me that feels like I'm helping to keep the centuries old traditions and skills of sailing alive.
It's too hard, it's too slow, the boat will tip over, etc.... I've heard these again and again. And despite my best efforts I don't think I've ever been successful at convincing anybody to change their mind. I've offered to take lots of people sailing but the number of people that accept is very, very low.
I don't think the problem is a lack of disposable income because enough people seem able to buy large and expensive powerboats and other go fast toys. I think the problem is culture.
I don't know who said it so I can't give credit: "You get on a power boat to go somewhere but when you get on a sailboat you're already there." That exactly summarizes my feelings about sailing. I don't think most younger people understand this. If being on the lake was about getting to a destination then I'd have a power boat. If that's your goal then fine but for me it is not. I only rarely sail with a specific destination in mind. For me it's about relaxing and enjoying the scenery. It's about challenging myself to harness the wind as effectively as possible. Heck, there's even a part of me that feels like I'm helping to keep the centuries old traditions and skills of sailing alive.
It's too hard, it's too slow, the boat will tip over, etc.... I've heard these again and again. And despite my best efforts I don't think I've ever been successful at convincing anybody to change their mind. I've offered to take lots of people sailing but the number of people that accept is very, very low.
I don't think the problem is a lack of disposable income because enough people seem able to buy large and expensive powerboats and other go fast toys. I think the problem is culture.
That's awesome! No kids here, so I just try to get as many people on the boat as I can.
Let them go Rick! I just sold my Head Hots and Raichle rear entry boots a couple years ago. I was getting comments....
Guess who it was that said: "I find shaped skis to be too design-specific. I think I can do more on my 212s. I'm on them now for spite more than anything else. I think it's a shame that long boards are completely out of the quiver."
Still a better skier than 90% of the hot kids today in his late 30s. won mogul races on his 212s just for fun
sometimes it IS the skier and not just the skis. (applies to sailboats as well BTW)
hint. it was Glen Plake
Still a better skier than 90% of the hot kids today in his late 30s. won mogul races on his 212s just for fun
sometimes it IS the skier and not just the skis. (applies to sailboats as well BTW)hint. it was Glen Plake
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The more sails part has not been true for decades. Race boats went to non-overlapping rigs years before mainstream cruisers did, and often I see cruising boats with more headsails than my boat races with in total. And more more and more pure race boats are designed to be sailed with less crew. The new red-hot 40 foot J-121 races with THREE sails (jib on furler, main in a bag, and asym in a sock) and uses water ballast to be competitive with a crew of 4.
My point is, you have to be current to accurately assess the situation.
I cruise Jack and don't race. Main and Jib. I have an asym but rarely use it. J-121 as you note is red hot and has only three sails but a crew of 4. What is sticker price on the J-121 that needs 4 for a crew? I am much more familiar and current with "cruising" boats.
The 121 is expensive. But all new boats are.
My bigger point was that almost all new boats, even the race boats and high performance cruisers, have evolved to minimize sail handling and crew size. Its not a sales objection anymore.
Funny thing, IP's website is down because of "Bandwidth limit exceeded" or more commonly known as not paying the bill.....