Lack Of a Traveller

[Scott T-Bird]

I think it depends upon the quality and the type. There are hydraulic vangs for the larger boats. I didn't do enough research to find out what Beneteau equips. My assumption would be that they would compensate for eliminating the traveler by installing a standard vang which is designed for performance, not a cheapo version that is designed for economy. If they don't provide the right vang, then shame on them for sure.

 

[Don Guillette]

Weinie/Scott T-Bird; Here's the trick to installing the rigid vang that will only compress. I sold/installed many Garhauer Rigid Vangs along with the rest of the stuff they sell. The boom vangs I sold had coil springs that looked like they came off a 1964 Chevy P/u, which I wish I still owned!! I installed the vang so that at rest the boom was about 10* above horizontal. As an aside, I also use RivNuts as opposed to pop rivets or using a tap.

So Ca has very little wind in the AM so the boom vang is set for that condition. As the wind pipes up, you crank on the vang until it gets to a point where you have to start easing down to a flat non powerful sail setting.

 

[justsomeguy]

Justsomeguy: Do you belong to the Tucson Sailing Club? I've conducted a couple of mini sail trim seminars for them and the Phoenix Sailing Club and I'd like to do some more. I planned on attending TSC's last club meeting but it was raining cat's & dogs's so I passed on it.

Heck, no.

 

[Indysailor]

I have a boat with no traveler and like many who have the same boat, I have contemplated the project and decided there is no good way to add one that would achieve the desired result.

Thinking about the design of my boat, two things seem evident; it's not a racer and its built for near coastal waters. To the second point, I would guess the design has in mind a lazy three hour broad reach on an onshore breeze out and a similar sail back, perhaps the reason it also has horn cleats for the jib sheets. Additionally, I suppose a traveler would limit one of the nicest aspects of this boat, a spacious, unencumbered, relatively open cockpit, a very good place for kids and lazy sailors.

Does it mean I don't try to learn all the sail controls I have? No, indeed it means I try to learn them even more, knowing this is a boat with a limited range of adjustment options. The standard rig didn't even include a vang, which seems kind of inexcusable to me and every time I look up at the boom on a reach, I swear I'll install one soon. Nevertheless, to me the lack of a traveler seemed to do less with sailors' declining skill sets than with building this boat to a particular purpose. Will I buy a boat with a traveler in the future? Quite likely yes, as I too have become fond of learning all the pulley things.

 

[Don Guillette]

Indysailor: One observation that I've made many times -- there is no difference between cruising trim & racing trim. There's only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails (Dennis Conner).

Personally, I think that for adjusting ANGLE OF ATTACK the traveler is the easy way to go -- if a mate has one. When I'm on other folks boat I pray for a gust just to see how they handle it. Normally, they use the mainsheet and struggle with it. When the next gust hits I tell them "watch this" and just drop the traveler and the boat comes back on it's feet or I can stop the heel at 15%. They become believers!!

 

[Indysailor]

Indysailor: One observation that I've made many times -- there is no difference between cruising trim & racing trim. There's only a right way and a wrong way to trim sails (Dennis Conner). Personally, I think that for adjusting ANGLE OF ATTACK the traveler is the easy way to go -- if a mate has one. When I'm on other folks boat I pray for a gust just to see how they handle it. Normally, they use the mainsheet and struggle with it. When the next gust hits I tell them "watch this" and just drop the traveler and the boat comes back on it's feet or I can stop the heel at 15%. They become believers!!

And one doesn't need a traveler to trim their sails. Is it nice to have one? Sure, but for a little tub like mine, which is not particularly close winded and is happiest on a broad reach, one could make the argument that Hunt designed it with near coastal cruising in mind, lots of broad reaching, rather than racing. That's quite a different thing than saying there is a difference between racing and cruising trim, which is not what I said.

 

[weinie]

The problem with travelers is that they are a pain in the butt for cruising shorthanded!!!

If they are on the coach roof, you have to leave the helm to play it.
If you have end boom sheeting you have a barrier that breaks physically breaks up the cockpit and puts the mainsheet in the way of everything.

So its understandable why the benejenehunterlinas are moving to german/vang sheeting setups.

ETA: or you could have that ugly "radar arch" like the hunters.

 

[Don Guillette]

Indysailor: You're missing the point and I'm wasting my time. You could actually sail a boat with no sail trim controls

Weinie; Run the traveler lines back to the helm. Here's why - as a single hander, which is what I was, when my boat heeled over I'd ask my wife to take the helm so I could adjust the sail trim controls. Her response was when you get the boat on it's fee!! It's. Catch 22. How am I supposed to do that if I'm stuck at the helm. Solution was to run everything back to the helm. I even had Garhauer build me a 2' winch handle so I could trim the jib.

 

[weinie]

Indysailor: You're missing the point and I'm wasting my time. You could actually sail a boat with no sail trim controls

Weinie; Run the traveler lines back to the helm. Here's why - as a single hander, which is what I was, when my boat heeled over I'd ask my wife to take the helm so I could adjust the sail trim controls. Her response was when you get the boat on it's fee!! It's. Catch 22. How am I supposed to do that if I'm stuck at the helm. Solution was to run everything back to the helm. I even had Garhauer build me a 2' winch handle so I could trim the jib.

Don,

I no longer have my Catalina. But I am curious how you ran the lines for the traveler back and cleated them off by the helm. Do you have any pictures?

 

[Alan Gomes]

The problem with travelers is that they are a pain in the butt for cruising shorthanded!!!

If they are on the coach roof, you have to leave the helm to play it.
If you have end boom sheeting you have a barrier that breaks physically breaks up the cockpit and puts the mainsheet in the way of everything.

So its understandable why the benejenehunterlinas are moving to german/vang sheeting setups.

ETA: or you could have that ugly "radar arch" like the hunters.

Not always and not on my boat. I have a tiller steered boat and the traveler on the coach roof is in the ideal spot for reaching the control lines when single handing.

 

[Indysailor]

Indysailor: You're missing the point and I'm wasting my time.

Likewise. Do you even read past the first sentence of a reply before refuting it?

 

[Doug4bass]

But the rigid vang on these boats, (at least the ones I've seen) aren't truly rigid. They are just aluminum tubes with a spring that's just about strong enough to keep the boom off the deck at the mooring. Any tension on the main sheet is going to easily pull the boom downwards.

Not correct on my Garhauer or Selden vang. There is a reason these has 4-1 purchases.

 

[Don Guillette]

Don,

I no longer have my Catalina. But I am curious how you ran the lines for the traveler back and cleated them off by the helm. Do you have any pictures?

Weinie: I don't have a picture of the setup. The first mod I made was replacing the curved track traveler with a Garhauer straight track traveler. I also had a dodger, which complicated things a bit. I rigged the lines so they ran under the dodger to a swivel type block (I don't know what it's called) on the cabin top, which locked the line. To adjust the traveler from the helm, all I had to do was "flick" both lines and make the adjustment. After the adjustment, I "flicked" them again to lock them in place. It was as simple as that.

For the jib, Garhauer made me a 2' winch handle plus I installed their adjustable fairlead system. Sometime I had to lock the wheel for a few seconds while I made an adjustment but most times all I had to do was hold my knee against the wheel to hold course.

 

[Joe]

The problem with travelers is that they are a pain in the butt for cruising shorthanded!!!

If they are on the coach roof, you have to leave the helm to play it.
If you have end boom sheeting you have a barrier that breaks physically breaks up the cockpit and puts the mainsheet in the way of everything.

So its understandable why the benejenehunterlinas are moving to german/vang sheeting setups.

ETA: or you could have that ugly "radar arch" like the hunters.

Totally don't agree with the first statement....do agree with your later comment on the spring loaded vang being easily compressed by the mainsheet.... but rather than voice opinions.. here's an example of some cabin top traveler options... the essence of which is to relocate the cleats from the ends of the track to a more convenient location.. control lines, of course, would need to be routed through guides or blocks to the cleat or dedicated winch.

 

[dynomite]

Currently in the process of moving main traveller on cabin top to track located just aft of compainway. Boat is a 1978 C&C 34 used for cruising and racing and relocation should help with trim and also ease the difficulty of releasing main sheet , moving the car under load and controlling leach shape.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The intrepid traveler!

Once again the traveler inspires so many diverse attitudes and opinions! One thing that strikes me about the traveler is that there seems to be no optimal place to put it. No matter where it is located, there seems to be a problem, or at least somebody will point out the draw back. I had thought that the most suitable place for it would be in front of the companionway, but we have heard a few opinions now that seem to indicate otherwise. If I had mine over the companionway, I would scalp my head on the underside, for sure. Perhaps the top of the arch is the best location for it!

I have the standard 3:1 purchase on mine, located on the bridge deck as shown in the photos. It's where the designer put it, so who am I to argue? Still, it's a trip hazard when I'm stepping into or out from the companionway. And the mainsheet, is often centered right in the way. But I can't live without the traveler for obvious reasons. What I like about the traveler as it is setup is that I can control the lines easily from behind the helm and I can center the boom on close haul (with the long throw from the mainsheet, it is necessary to move the traveler windward to center the boom).

What I don't like about the traveler is that it takes 2 lines to adjust it. I thought the Harken windward sheeting traveler would be the cats meow, but it seems there are detractors even for that system! If I release one line of the traveler for a gust, the result is invariably snarled lines on the leeward side. Not good, so I don't do that. Besides, allowing the traveler car slide to the lee side often gets nasty looks from the crew in the cockpit, whom will usually have a different agenda than the skipper (when she is perched in the lee position)!

The mainsheet is much easier to ease when reacting to gusts. It involves just one line (not 2)and no moving cars. Besides, vang sheeting is there to control the leach (see photo - it works just fine when the traveler is at the end anyway), so I see no downside - but I do have to be sure that it is snugged. Besides, if you do worry about restoring your sail shape, be assured that as you retrieve the mainsheet to it's original position, so does your sail shape return!

In essence, I use the traveler to initially set up twist in conjunction with the mainsheet and the vang for a point of sail. Once I've set the desired twist and AOA, I won't often change it, unless there is a change in overall wind strength, wind direction, or I change where I want to go. So with the vang set for vang sheeting, there is no need to worry about over-twist with momentary mainsheet adjustments for AOA during gusts. The traveler in my application is usually a set it and forget it control for a given point of sail. I'll only adjust the traveler for a new point of sail where I need to readjust AOA and twist using the 3 mainsail controls. I've arrived at my preferences and observations based on many hours of sailing and experimenting and adapting the equipment accordingly. But it is worthwhile to respect the observations of all those who contribute because all of our observations will have many aspects in common, despite our different applications.

 

[Don Guillette]

Scott: Would the location over the sliding hatch work if you used a Garhauer riser? They make various heights. My boat had teak blocks and I thought they looked nautical so I kept them as traveler end mounts for the Garhauer straight track. Instead of the Garhauer extensions, which ain't cheap, maybe teak blocks would work.

 

[Jackdaw]

Once again the traveler inspires so many diverse attitudes and opinions! One thing that strikes me about the traveler is that there seems to be no optimal place to put it.

I hear what you are saying Scott.

But from a performance standpoint, the single optimal place to put a traveler is at the end of the boom. ANY place farther up the boom is a concession to fashion, convenience or cost.

The only exception is older boats with very pinched transoms, where the range of a boom-end traveler might be small. 3/4 boom travelers are OK there.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Always compromises ...

Scott: Would the location over the sliding hatch work if you used a Garhauer riser? They make various heights. My boat had teak blocks and I thought they looked nautical so I kept them as traveler end mounts for the Garhauer straight track. Instead of the Garhauer extensions, which ain't cheap, maybe teak blocks would work.

No, I think that Jim Taylor put the traveler on the bridge deck for a reason. The sheeting is at 3/4 boom and it's the wide point in the hull. If it were placed over the cabin there would be issues. A raised track would be a vision blocker is one issue that comes to mind.

I've come to the conclusion there is no reason to want it any other location. If it were end boom, that would place it right in front of the helm. Footwork in our small cockpit is difficult enough without placing it in a location that would make it more difficult. And the range would then be reduced as well. It's about right just where it is.

I think the arch is a little radical for some people's taste, but it is an innovative (well, maybe not exactly innovative any more) design that seems to take the mainsheet out of the cockpit with an improvement over mid-boom sheeting.

 

[Maine Sail]

No... I think you are just seeing the big builders get VERY focused on target markets. Most of them have multiple lineup for different markets. This is true for Beneteau, Jenneau, Elan, Bavaria, and Hanse. That probably represents 80% of all sailboats being built.

For Beneteau you have

Not just true for them but also for small high end builders like Morris. Last summer I was having lunch with Cuyler Morris and asked him why the M-29, M-36, M-42 etc., with all their potential, did not have a traveler or more sail control?

He stated very honestly that this was not the demographic that wanted a traveler or any more complications than were absolutely necessary. The traveler was left off due to who they were selling those boats to.

He then said that there has been enough new demand for higher performance M boats to add what he called the "X" option to the M-29, M-36 and M-42 which does include a traveler and a much higher performance rig...

Some owners do care about performance, others want simple and don't care as much about performance......

Me, you'd have to pry my end boom traveler from my cold dead fingers.....

M-29X

I really love the location of our traveler compared to previous boats where it has been mid-boom or 3/4 boom. As a main trimmer when I race I am a traveler player and I also drape my vang line aft when soloing... Every thing I need is easily within reach and it makes solo sailing our boat so nice.....