Lack Of a Traveller

[LakeOntario270]

I've noticed Beneteau's new Oceanis 35 and 38s seem to lack a traditional mainsail traveller. I assume you control the mainsail twist with the boom vang. I feel I must be missing something because if this is a good idea why have we been putting travellers to control mainsails on boats for all these years?

 

[All U Get]

You mean like this Hinkley?

All U Get

 

[woodster]

You mean like this Hinkley?

All U Get

AUG you standing in some high cotton there

 

[Jackdaw]

I've noticed Beneteau's new Oceanis 35 and 38s seem to lack a traditional mainsail traveller. I assume you control the mainsail twist with the boom vang. I feel I must be missing something because if this is a good idea why have we been putting travellers to control mainsails on boats for all these years?

Complex issue.

For off-wind sailing or to decrease the Angle of Attack of the sail in puffs, yes you would use the vang to control the twist while the mainsheet is played out. This is a classic example of 'vang sheeting'.

For optimal on-the-wind sailing, you DO potentially lose some trim capability.

You lose the ability to bring the boom up to the centerline for optimal upwind work. But 95% of cruising sailors do not do this. And the Oceanis is a cruising boat. Want a racer? Buy a First 35. It has a 6 foot traveler!

But there are some factors that support this setup.

The arch greatly reduces the span of distance between the boom and the base of the mainsheet. This distance is the biggest reason that you cannot pull the boom to centerline on a traditional setup. Traditionally, the span of the mainsheet is several feet and the boom always is pushed to leeward by the wind. Pulling it very tight does not bring the boom up, instead it mostly just closes the leech. Thats why when going to windward, racers will have the traveler at least 3/4 the way up the traveler to windward, to account for the mainsheet falling off. On boats with arches the boom can be very close, the mainsheet span is short, and can be brought very close to centerline.

If a owner really wants full traveler functionality, they can have a rigger replace the single line mainsheet with a double line system; one for each side. A bit more complex, but now you can bring the boom all the way up to centerline.

 

[All U Get]

Portsmouth, RI just beyond Newport. Lot of big boats in that yard.

All U Get

I like the Dragon on the bottom of Beau Ceste, nice bottom paint. I didn't get a good shot of the traveler but a nice shot of the open transom. Need a few more zeros in my IRA to buy that one.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Interesting observations.

A friend of mine mentioned this to me just yesterday and said he was of the opinion that "It could be that folks who are buying these bigger boats still/just don't know how to sail."

Jack's point about the mainsheet position is valid, to a point.

But this has always also been an issue for those skippers who complained about the cabintop mainsheet travelers being too far away from them when they're behind the wheel anyway, which could be a reason why so many of them leave it one place. I solved that by not "being a slave behind the wheel" and using the ALL of the controls for sail trim.

Another reason is cost.

 

[Jackdaw]

Interesting observations.
Jack's point about the mainsheet position is valid, to a point.

But this has always also been an issue for those skippers who complained about the cabintop mainsheet travelers being too far away from them when they're behind the wheel anyway, which could be a reason why so many of them leave it one place. I solved that by not "being a slave behind the wheel" and using the ALL of the controls for sail trim.

Another reason is cost.

Stu,

I agree that anytime a builder mounts the traveler anywhere forward of the cockpit, they assume the buyer will not by actively using it. And by mounting it there, they pretty much guarantee that being the case!

I've yet to see an effective traveler mounting outside the cockpit.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jack, that might be a tad strong. Whether cruising or racing, all of our Catalina 34 skippers that I know here use them as intended. I do know of a few back east who have noted on our forum that they don't. Your boat, your choice. My only point there was that even cabintop travelers CAN be used quite well even when singlehanding (maybe I wasn't clear about in the "behind the wheel" comment). Some have extended their traveler control lines. Most have gotten "smart" and don't bother anymore using their mainsheets, 'cuz it's such a PITA to reset, plus it changes the sail shape not just the angle of attack.

I find it somewhat appalling that big new boats don't come with all the gear to allow them to sail efficiently upwind.

This IS a sail trim part of the forum, right?

 

[Jackdaw]

Jack, that might be a tad strong. Whether cruising or racing, all of our Catalina 34 skippers that I know here use them as intended. I do know of a few back east who have noted on our forum that they don't. Your boat, your choice. My only point there was that even cabintop travelers CAN be used quite well even when singlehanding (maybe I wasn't clear about in the "behind the wheel" comment).

Stu,

You're right. Probably better to say that a traveler in the cockpit is much easier to use. And without doubt used more effectively. But given the will, a good skipper and crew can make any setup work!

My point was more toward intended use. On the cabin-top the builder does not expect it to get the same use as one spanning the cockpit.

 

[BarryL]

OUCH

Tell that to many of the cruiser / racers in my thursday night fleet who have a dedicated person to run the main, which includes the sheet and traveler.

I agree that for SHORT handed sailing it probably doesn't get used much, but
I know plenty of single handers who use the AP to steer so they can pull ALL the strings.

I totally get mounting the traveler over the companionway to gain easy access to the cabin. It doesn't help make east to the traveler but everything on a boat is a trade off.

My boat has the traveler in the WORST position - on the bridge deck in front of the companionway. I can't reach it from the helm, AND it's in the way when you want to get below. I decided I would sail with it that way for at least a year and then decide if I want to move it aft in front of the wheel, or forward over the companionway.

Barry

Stu,

I agree that anytime a builder mounts the traveler anywhere forward of the cockpit, they assume the buyer will not by actively using it. And by mounting it there, they pretty much guarantee that being the case!

I've yet to see an effective traveler mounting outside the cockpit.

 

[Alan Gomes]

OUCH

Tell that to many of the cruiser / racers in my thursday night fleet who have a dedicated person to run the main, which includes the sheet and traveler.

I agree that for SHORT handed sailing it probably doesn't get used much, but
I know plenty of single handers who use the AP to steer so they can pull ALL the strings.

I totally get mounting the traveler over the companionway to gain easy access to the cabin. It doesn't help make east to the traveler but everything on a boat is a trade off.

My boat has the traveler in the WORST position - on the bridge deck in front of the companionway. I can't reach it from the helm, AND it's in the way when you want to get below. I decided I would sail with it that way for at least a year and then decide if I want to move it aft in front of the wheel, or forward over the companionway.

Barry

Depends on the boat, of course. I have a tiller-steered Ericson 26-2 and the cabin top traveler puts the control lines exactly where I want them for single handing.

 

[Jackdaw]

OUCH

Tell that to many of the cruiser / racers in my thursday night fleet who have a dedicated person to run the main, which includes the sheet and traveler.

I agree that for SHORT handed sailing it probably doesn't get used much, but
I know plenty of single handers who use the AP to steer so they can pull ALL the strings.

I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me! ;^)

You are right it is all a trade-off. End-boom travelers are totally in the way when socializing in the cockpit. And forget biminis. But for effectivity they simply cannot be beat, or even come close to by other arrangements.

Done right the mainsheet trimmer is sitting on the windward rail all the time, focused and looking straight up at her telltails. Mainsheet in one hand, traveler line in the other. Both easy to use hand loads.

 

[Don Guillette]

This is an editorial. The use of sail trim controls for a large number of sailors worldwide (I don't know the %) is a joke. The top grouping (expert) from 75% and above know what they are doing. The grouping from 0% to 25% want to know the what/why of sail trim -- that's the group I focus on. The middle group, 25% to 75%, I don't know what to call them (they think they know more about sail trim than Dennis Conner and really "don't know what they don't know about sail trim"), but if I was a boat builder that is the group I would focus on. I'd eliminate as many sail trim controls as I could so I could call it "sailing" and I'd make the sail boat as close to a motor boat as possible.

I approached a number of boat brokers in Long Beach, Ca and told them I could help them sell sailboats (for a piece of the action) if they took me along on their test sails with potential buyers. I could show the potential buyer how much fun/relaxing/simple sailing actually is and help them close the deal. Do you know how many brokers took the deal -- not one!! Here's their reasoning, they didn't care or give a crap if the buyer knew how to sail the boat or not. All they wanted to do was sell the product and move on to the next deal.

When I decided to sell my C30, the first "sailboat salesman" was an idiot. After 5 minutes I was telling him the points about my boat that he should be pointing out to buyers. He had the gall to ask me to be present at each sales presentation to help him sell my boat, while he retained the full commission. The second "sailboat salesman" was not much better. I finally listed and sold it myself.

When I purchased the C30, I had a Mac22 at my ex wife's house (she threatened to take a chain saw to it if I didn't move it so I was under pressure) and a C25. My wife sold both of them in 30 days but what sold them was the "test sail', which hooked the buyers. I had so much fun on the test sail I almost kept both boats!!

 

[All U Get]

Would you say there has been a change in boat design to emphasize leisure and entertainment rather than performance models in the market?

All U Get

 

[Jackdaw]

Would you say there has been a change in boat design to emphasize leisure and entertainment rather than performance models in the market?

All U Get

No... I think you are just seeing the big builders get VERY focused on target markets. Most of them have multiple lineup for different markets. This is true for Beneteau, Jenneau, Elan, Bavaria, and Hanse. That probably represents 80% of all sailboats being built.

For Beneteau you have

Oceanis : Cruiser / Charter
Sense : Cruiser / Lifestyle
First : Cruiser / Race

I have not seen new PHRF numbers for the 38. The Older 37 is rated about the same (just a few seconds faster) than the C375. But both of them get utterly destroyed by the smaller First 35. Depends on what you are looking for. Rarely if ever do you see a buyer having a hard time choosing between a First and an Oceanis. They know.

Its clear that the different boats make sense to different markets; why make a boat that tries to be all things to all people? Car companies certainly don't. Catalina knows their market very well. They have never tried to really enter the racer market (unless you count the orphan C38). They stick firmly in the cruiser market. Their boats reflect that. And their customers keep coming back.

Beneteau is much bigger and can afford to diversify in ways that do not make sense to Catalina and other US-centric builders. I can tell you the Sense boats (and new convertible O25 and O38) have been very popular with customers. Their market research and planning is always looking at how people and to sail, and the choices they will make. The gear selected is a result of that. The Firsts will always be Firsts.

As for me, I'm old school and would have a real hard time on a boat without a traveler. But then I drive a 6-speed manual still as well. My friend has Boxster with tiptronic auto. Its a hell of a car. It makes sense to him. Maybe someday that Sense 46 will make sense for me as well.

 

[Don Guillette]

As for me, I'm old school and would have a real hard time on a boat without a traveler.

Jackdaw: Me too, I'm so old school that I prefer a hank on jib!! I know the way to go is a roller furler but there's something romantic/nautical with having the jib rolled up next to the safety lines. I'll bet some listers don't even know what I'm describing!!

 

[FastOlson]

Times Change, not always for the better

Would you say there has been a change in boat design to emphasize leisure and entertainment rather than performance models in the market?

(Big Sigh...)

Yes indeed.
And that change started, incrementally, in the late 70's.
I live far enough north to experience distinct boating seasons - and there's a lot less boating in the mid winter part of it. So we have big boat shows instead.
What I have observed, from working a few boat shows, is that most sailboat designs became oriented to being sold inside of large heated buildings, in January. No water anywhere near.

Next, at least one of the people needed to sign off on the contract was seldom very interested in "sailing." So, travelers and their associated "mess of ropy things" had to be gotten out of the cockpit as much as possible.

Then, to add insult to injury, all the builders and dealers changed the terminology of the industry to call boats that were designed to be actively sailed "RACING" boats and the burgeoning ranks of dockside party craft/second homes were labeled "Cruising" boats. (insert Bigger Sigh....)

So here we are now... with a generation of buyers befuddled by misleading terminology. The owners that do take an interest in really leaving the dock and sailing find little help from the "sailing industry", either. Forums like this and some others help, but a lot of that "help" is opinionated and occasionally rather snarky.

The large fleets of one-design dinghies and small ballasted boats in the 70's and 80's - that produced legions of sailing families wanting to move up to actual "performance cruisers" (i.e. racer/cruisers) -- has stayed static or withered.

Some blame the current recession, with good reason. But the decline dates from much further back. I just hope that there is always a core group of future buyers - Sailors! -to buy up the real sailboats when the present generation gets ready to sell due to age or changing lifestyles.

Hmmmm. Perhaps I need to dial down the "rant-ometer" a bit! Sorry.


Fair winds,
Loren

 

[Stu Jackson]

Loren,

Very cogent analysis,

Thanks,

Stu

PS I LIKE the strings and pull-y-things. :dance:

 

[sea_casper]

End-boom travelers are totally in the way when socializing in the cockpit. And forget biminis. But for effectivity they simply cannot be beat, or even come close to by other arrangements.

Hunter does not do everything right but their arch is one. It allows end of boom traveler and sheet and it makes the control lines handy at the helm.

It also makes a strong mounting location for biminis, solar panels, etc.

It obviously costs more, but I don't understand why it isn't more common, try it you will like it.

 

[ALNims]

As for me, I'm old school and would have a real hard time on a boat without a traveler.

Jackdaw: Me too, I'm so old school that I prefer a hank on jib!! I know the way to go is a roller furler but there's something romantic/nautical with having the jib rolled up next to the safety lines. I'll bet some listers don't even know what I'm describing!!

I am new to sailing. I have a 356 that did not come with a traveler. I just installed the traveler on the arch. I am looking forward to trying it out. The reason I installed the traveler was there just wasn't enough control of the boom. Many of the more experienced people in my marina club were surprised the boat did not have a traveler. So I bowed to experience and installed one.