Lack Of a Traveller

[Stu Jackson]

Me, you'd have to pry my end boom traveler from my cold dead fingers.....

Agree.:theman:

Or my cabintop Garhauer traveler on our boat.

Of course, there are those "Gentlemen who never sail to windward."

For the life of me, I can't understand people who can go out on a sailboat and either just sail back and forth (i.e., beam reach no traveler needed) or all downwind.

Don't they ever have to come "home?"

Well, I guess if you're going to Mexico from California and then to NZ you'd never have to sail upwind. Just thinkin'...:dance:

 

[dynomite]

Agree.:theman:

Or my cabintop Garhauer traveler on our boat.

Of course, there are those "Gentlemen who never sail to windward."

For the life of me, I can't understand people who can go out on a sailboat and either just sail back and forth (i.e., beam reach no traveler needed) or all downwind.

Don't they ever have to come "home?"

Well, I guess if you're going to Mexico from California and then to NZ you'd never have to sail upwind. Just thinkin'...:dance:

I race 2 nights a week on the Detroit River and going to weather in a very narrow area is the norm.
Being able to hold a tack as long as possible is very important.
Weekends can be spent on the nearby lakes doing some windward/leeward legs.


lots of fun

 

[dynomite]

I race 2 nights a week on the Detroit River and going to weather in a very narrow area is the norm.
Being able to hold a tack as long as possible is very important.
Weekends can be spent on the nearby lakes doing some windward/leeward legs.


lots of fun

Currently on the hard with 2 feet of ice in our harbor.
Waiting for an early spring

 

[Don Guillette]

He stated very honestly that this was not the demographic that wanted a traveler or any more complications than were absolutely necessary. The traveler was left off due to who they were selling those boats to.


That's the sad part for me but it's the bottom line -- I've known it all along "that a sailor doesn't know what he doesn't know" but sail trim is so simple to learn and to trim your sails so that you can obtain 100% efficiency doesn't take a lot of sail trim knowledge. Really, I'm the poster child - I can't match the technical knowledge of RichH, Stu J, Jackdaw, Scott Tbird, Joe from San Diego, Maine Sail and some other regular forum listers but I/you don't have to be in their league to enjoy sailing. If you can move from sail trim beginner to low intermediate, and it doesn't take a lot understanding, a sailor could get so much fun out of their boat. If nothing else, knowing a bit about what you're doing is a safety issue.

Here's a short story to illustrate my point -- I conducted a"'on the water seminar" for Marina Sailing Club (So Ca Long Beach) charter club members. A young couple had attended
my sail trim seminar the night before. During a break in the evening class they both stated this was their last attempt with sailing and that they were about to give up on sailing because it was too confusing to them. After the evening seminar they signed up for the "on the water" session so I thought we're making progress.

During the "on the water" session both were reluctant to try any positions, especially driving. Unfortunately, for them, the session doesn't work that way. Participant participate in ALL positions. On the way back to the marina, the wife drove and didn't want to give up the wheel!!

That's not the best part -- as soon as we docked they both jumped off the boat and took off. There was no "thank you" or anything. I thought that I can't win all the time. About 10 minutes later they came waltzing back to the boat, all smiles, and told me they just chartered a 30'. Think about it --if you were me would that make your day or not!?!?

 

[Meriachee]

The 6:1 Garhauer upgrade for the traveller makes it ever so easy to adjust under load now.
Would it be better at the end of the boom? Maybe. It has a better working range where it is on the cabin top, but does that really equate to a more effective installation location?

 

[Joe]

What I don't like about the traveler is that it takes 2 lines to adjust it. I thought the Harken windward sheeting traveler would be the cats meow, but it seems there are detractors even for that system! If I release one line of the traveler for a gust, the result is invariably snarled lines on the leeward side. Not good, so I don't do that. Besides, allowing the traveler car slide to the lee side often gets nasty looks from the crew in the cockpit, whom will usually have a different agenda than the skipper (when she is perched in the lee position)!

Scott. I changed to a continuous control line on my traveler. You still adjust one side at a time....but the single line is easier to handle and locate... and you can release the line from the opposite side of the cockpit...

 

[shemandr]

I don't really have a problem with the traveler-less boat. "Times, they a-changing..." To see that photo of the M29X, with its traditional lines, and asymmetrical sail, and knowing it has the underbody of a J-80, you know that everything is in flux.
I think that the boat designers and builders should do whatever they can to stay in business. That means building sailing boats (Few enough even bother with that) that appeal to their customers. So if the customers don't want to mess with a traveler, which chops up the cockpit, skins the Mrs's knees and isn't used very much, that's what they should do. And they should push the technology to deliver easier to sail yachts. Maybe something is lost when the "New" sailors don't know the workings of the traveler or maybe not so much since many cruising boats don't use the traveler. How do I know? Because I've been on so many that you couldn't use the traveler. It hadn't been used in years and is functionally useless. It's maybe not as big a loss as is thought. And the "New" sailors won't know the ins and outs of setting and flying a symmetrical spinnaker. Or even sailing dead downwind. . They might have trouble understanding why anyone would do that. These are skills that are moving down the racing divisions in many regattas. The top classes are embracing the "New."
Captain Nat would be delighted. We don't need to lament the past. I'm a creature of the past but I recognize that "Times, they are a-changing"

 

[Don Guillette]

Meriachee: I don't think it matters regarding the location of the traveler. I've used this description many times because the principles of sail trim are simple and repeat themselves -- unlike nuclear research!i

Think of your screen door in your garage. Assume there is a grove in the floor and a pin at the end of the screen that rides in the track, When you open and close the screen door does the shape change? It obviously doesn't. That's how the traveler operates. It's a horizontal action so it doesn't matter where you locate it. If you stuck it next to the mast maybe it would be a problem but any position from mid boom to end boom would not be a problem -- in my opinion.

 

[Meriachee]

Don, the car will actually entertain more movement, the closer to the mast you get since the boom is moving in an arc. I have no issue with the door analogy, it just strikes me that the amount of trim for a given amount of distance between the car and the boom is reduced the further aft you move the appliance.
All of that is likely moot, beer discussion because nobody is gonna move the track from one location to another, and it's all about trim within the constraints of the installation.

 

[Jackdaw]

it just strikes me that the amount of trim for a given amount of distance between the car and the boom is reduced the further aft you move the appliance.

Indeed. The load on the mainsheet goes up as it and the traveler moves up the boom towards the mast. So do the loads on the traveler lines, which are always 1/5th the load on the sheet.

Lighters loads are quicker and easier to manage and use. Even on our 36.7 with its huge main, the traveler is a manageable hand load. Once you can no longer play a traveler with your hands, you've lost.

The actual mainsheet load formula is here.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Distilling the formula down for my boat, with boom bail at 80% of the length vs mid-boom, I get the following multipliers:

ML = 1.60 x Knots squared for existing position
ML = 2.575 x Knots squared for mid boom

So at 12 knots, the mainsheet load is 230 pounds vs 371 pounds for mid-boom.

That sounds about right. The 61% increase seems to be consistent across the range of wind speeds that I calculated.

 

[dynomite]

So with the traveller moved to cockpit position and a Harkin 6 to 1 Mainsheet my trimmer should have a much easier task of trimming main sail. With the numerous tacks we have to do in the river this certainly will be appreciated.
Thank You All for the comments and input.

Bob

 

[Scott T-Bird]

So translating the load to traveler ...

Indeed. The load on the mainsheet goes up as it and the traveler moves up the boom towards the mast. So do the loads on the traveler lines, which are always 1/5th the load on the sheet.

Lighters loads are quicker and easier to manage and use. Even on our 36.7 with its huge main, the traveler is a manageable hand load. Once you can no longer play a traveler with your hands, you've lost.

If the mainsheet load is 230 pounds at 12 knots, then the traveler load is 46 pounds. With 3:1 purchase on the traveler, then my hand load is about 15 pounds during a 12 knot breeze. This also seems about right. Although, I think with friction, there is more.

With 5:1 purchase on the mainsheet, the hand load is 46 pounds.

Hmmm .... let's say that I play the gusts up to 15 Knots. The mainsheet load increases to 360 pounds on my set-up. So playing the traveler is a hand load of 24 pounds (360/5/3). Playing the mainsheet is a hand load of 72 pounds (360/5).

I'm beginning to see some light here ... perhaps this is a better reason for playing the traveler vs playing the mainsheet in the gusts! :dance:

 

[Jackdaw]

If the mainsheet load is 230 pounds at 12 knots, then the traveler load is 46 pounds. With 3:1 purchase on the traveler, then my hand load is about 15 pounds during a 12 knot breeze. This also seems about right. Although, I think with friction, there is more.

With 5:1 purchase on the mainsheet, the hand load is 46 pounds.

Hmmm .... let's say that I play the gusts up to 15 Knots. The mainsheet load increases to 360 pounds on my set-up. So playing the traveler is a hand load of 24 pounds (360/5/3). Playing the mainsheet is a hand load of 72 pounds (360/5).

I'm beginning to see some light here ... perhaps this is a better reason for playing the traveler vs playing the mainsheet in the gusts! :dance:

Ta da!

 

[Stu Jackson]

In addition, Scott, even with our 6:1 traveler, there is a LOT less line to adjust if I dump the traveler and have to bring it back up than if I dump the main. Even if the tensions were exactly the same, I'd use the adjustment that required less line to pull back, to say nothing of the sail shape issue.

Glad the light came on!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Now if I could just get my sail trimmer ...

to understand these concepts.

 

[Meriachee]

to understand these concepts.

That's not gonna work. That particular crew member is likely more inclined to chewing the crap out of that line while wrestling with it......

 

[Joe]

If the mainsheet load is 230 pounds at 12 knots, then the traveler load is 46 pounds. With 3:1 purchase on the traveler, then my hand load is about 15 pounds during a 12 knot breeze. This also seems about right. Although, I think with friction, there is more.

With 5:1 purchase on the mainsheet, the hand load is 46 pounds.

Hmmm .... let's say that I play the gusts up to 15 Knots. The mainsheet load increases to 360 pounds on my set-up. So playing the traveler is a hand load of 24 pounds (360/5/3). Playing the mainsheet is a hand load of 72 pounds (360/5).

I'm beginning to see some light here ... perhaps this is a better reason for playing the traveler vs playing the mainsheet in the gusts! :dance:

Yep... that's it.. and.. your mainsail stays trimmed the entire time. You're simply counteracting the change in apparent wind direction from the gust.

 

[Meriachee]

Joe,
But that is what the marketing department seems inclined to believe that the public wants. Trim be dammed, we need a few wheels and a bow thruster.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Joe,
But that is what the marketing department seems inclined to believe that the public wants. Trim be dammed, we need a few wheels and a bow thruster.

Remember this phrase:

The last time the marketing department was in charge of our product...