keel repair ------ (severe damage to pin hole and how to repair lead)

[langfordja]

I have a swing keel off of a Cat 22 (1972, I think). A chunk broke off during retrieval from the sea floor (due to using the already enlarged hole as chain attach point - apparently a bad idea). The missing chunk now opens the hole all the way to the keel edge.

A welding shop thought they could repair it by welding/filling the entire gap, and then drilling a new hole, so I had it sandblasted first. Down to bare metal was the plan, but initial sand blasting revealed a "softer" core which is assumed to be lead (maybe lead filler in a steel or iron frame ?).

Sand blasting was stopped at this point since it was blasting craters in the lead.

The welder has suggested not welding anything but rather sandwiching 1/8" stainless plate around the opening and securing with screws through the plates and keel. Then inserting a bushing for the pin.

Any comments on any of this ?
-alternative repair method,
-will 1/8" stainless sandwich hold ?
-is there room to mount an extra 1/8" x 2 ?
-is it really lead ?
etc.

 

[CloudDiver]

Nope... All keel prior to 1986 (I think) are cast iron. That 'soft' spot where the X is drawn through, look like the original keel pin that is made of bronze and it had ben sheered off or cut off and then ground flush. The extensive damage to that keel is not worth the cost of repairing... trust me, take it from a welder. Cast iron can be welded but it is a fickle bitch. If the metal isn't pre-heated enough and welded just right nothing will stick to it. What you will pay at $65 to $90 per hour could almost buy you a new keel from the Catalina factory, which is actually made of lead and therefore rust proof. You'd be WAY better off finding a used keel that is in much better shape. Take this to a scrap metal place and cash in the weight of scrap iron.

 

[langfordja]

Thanks for the quick reply CloudDiver.
With welding out of the picture, what about the stainless plate sandwich idea ?

 

[centerline]

the keel is cast iron.... I would strongly suggest taking it to another welder for a second opinion.

a large casting such as the keel can be very easily welded using the proper techniques by a welder knowledgeable in cast iron welding.... there is the preheat-postheat method, and there is the "cold weld" method. both are arc welding methods.

a large section of the damaged area needs to be cut out and a new piece of iron fitted in and welded. then redrill the hole.
do NOT attempt to fill the damaged area with weld metal, as this filled area will be much weaker and may tear away from the base metal (keel)....
sectioning is done quite often when repairing holes in metal of all types,

any "sandwiching" is setting your self up for a quick failure. its got to be repaired right the first time, because on the second attempt it will be much more involved....

 

[langfordja]

Thanks Centerline.

If welding is still a possibility then let me go back to what the sandblaster and welder said.

The sandblaster said that the keel was being blasted away with craters being created, so he stopped blasting. He thought that the keel was mostly lead inside a frame of steel or iron, then painted/epoxied. It is at the welder's shop now so I don't have photos yet. Until I post photos, let me try to describe what it looks like :

A cross-section of the damaged pin hole area, after blasting, looks like a dark gray material surrounding a lighter brown color frame, that broke off. When I tried to retrieve the keel from the sea floor, I looped a chain through the hole and pulled. This is when the chunk broke off and created the damage all the way to the keel edge. The chunk that broke off was the same dark gray material that I mentioned earlier.

The welder looked at it and agreed with the sandblaster, and said that it could not be welded.

I am headed to the welder now to get some photos which I will post later today.

Thanks for the help.

 

[CloudDiver]

At the end of the day you are going to spend far more on welding than you would on finding a used keel in better shape. There are so many C22's out there and many of them end up in a bone yard, spare keels are out there.
Forget about any other metals you or the welder think that keel is made of... Most of them from that era were cast in beach sand in Mexico, that is why there is so much pitting the sandblaster is exposing. If you find any other metals stuck to the cast iron, they are poor repair jobs done by a hack. There is no lead, no steel or stainless frame... those keels are 100% cast iron with a finished weight of 550 pounds. Like Centerline said, your only realistic repair option is to cut out the damaged section and weld in a solid piece of cast iron, which requires special welding techniques. A stainless sandwich is a bad idea, the bolts will just eventually allow water intrusion and rust away the cast iron. Seriously, you are better off finding a new (used keel). When you spend over $1500 when all is said is done on repairing this thing you'll kick yourself in the butt because from where you are you can just drive to the Catalina factory and get a brand new one for about $2K, and the new ones are a direct fit but actually made of lead with a stainless internal frame so it won't rust away underwater. You would'd have to worry about a perfect epoxy coating job and you can even install a zinc without worry.
I'm trying to help you avoid wasting your time. The ONLY circumstances by which anyone should attempt that kind of repair, is if they are a knowledgeable welder themselves and have their own equipment, thus the only investment is time. You'll still end up spending at least $200 on epoxy and paint to seal it up AFTER all the repairs are done.

 

[CloudDiver]

If you do insist on continuing with the repair option, this is the factory drawing of the C-22 keel. This will help you locate the correct position to drill the keel pin hole. Do yourself a huge favor, ream the hole to 1.25 inch so you can epoxy in the stainless bushing (you can buy from Catalina Direct). The stainless bushing protects exposed cast iron from rusting away which is probably what caused that keel to fall off and end up on the sea floor in the first place.

 

[langfordja]

Here is a photo of the damaged pin hole area, after some sandblasting. The dark gray area is what the sandblaster and welder think is lead. The sandblaster said that the gray material would disintegrate when blasted.

I am pretty sure the C22 is a 1972 but I don't know if this keel is its original keel. I am not sure if it matters since the keel appears to contain multiple metals.

 

[langfordja]

 

[pclarksurf]

The sandblaster said that the keel was being blasted away with craters being created, so he stopped blasting. He thought that the keel was mostly lead inside a frame of steel or iron, then painted/epoxied.

Thanks for the help.

Totally expected with a very porous cast Keel-- while mine was better than most, many of us including @CloudDiver sandblasted and unearthed some pretty intimidating cavities. Check out CDs resto thread-- search on the forums for keel refurbishment-- many many excellent pictures of what you can expect. And if you are keeping that particular keel-- sandblasting in my opinion is a must if you have any hope of longevity.

 

[pclarksurf]

+1 for CDs comments above-- my pics are of my '73. If you do have multiple metals they are likely leftover repairs (assuming this is an original keel). Blast away I say-- you'll have to in order to get to the bottom of it regardless.

 

[langfordja]

Good advice, CloudDiver and pclarksurf. And thanks for the dwg and pics. I will hold off on my repair.

I have not yet seen what other damage might have been done underneath the boat when the keel fell out. So I am not ready to drive to Catalina and spend $2k yet. It may not be until after the holidays until I can get the boat out of the water to examine it.

Another used keel, other than the one I have, sounds like a good idea. Where do you find those ? My web searches have come up empty.

And then what do I do with my scrap keel that may or may not contain hazardous material ?

 

[langfordja]

Now I am curious what mine will look like if it was blasted down to bare metal.
I don't know how curious ($$$).

If there is any lead repair, will the blasting create an environmental hazard ? Or is that the sandblaster's call ?

 

[pclarksurf]

Another used keel, other than the one I have, sounds like a good idea. Where do you find those ? My web searches have come up empty.
And then what do I do with my scrap keel that may or may not contain hazardous material ?

Set up a search on Ebay for anything with the words Catalina 22 and set it to email you daily results-- there may not be one out there right this second, but everything tends to show up eventually. Do the same thing either with an app or Craigslist itself-- one app I use: Cpro searches multiple locations (in my case the entirety of the PNW) for keywords in real time. I check constantly when I'm after something. To date I have uncovered boat stands, the boat itself, hand rails which had been for me hard to find parts.

There is also a facebook group for C22 owners which has also netted my some sails and a loos gauge-- lots of resources out there.

My sandblasting cost $150.00 -- but @CloudDiver is dead on-- calculate your keel refurb cost (at least 1500.00 all in) and then add your metal repair to that-- then decide on which route costs less/gets you there sooner.

Sandblaster should be responsible for his own cleanup and requirements.

 

[C22-Daydreamer]

Throwing my two cents in. @CloudDiver is correct. That keel is too far gone. Take it to a scrap metal reclamation place and get what you can for it. Two options find another keel used or maybe find another boat that has a good keel. Might be able to get another boat as cheap as the keel alone and the added benefit of spare parts for the rest of the boat. Otherwise spending the two thousand at Catalina Yachts will give you a brand new keel that's better than anything you'd spend a lot of time and energy on. Weigh the effort against the gain! Might be worth it to just layout the cash in the long term.

 

[centerline]

I agree that finding another keel may be a good choice... and im not there to dissect what we see in the photo but it does look like black cast, which is a very poor quality of iron, and depending on the contaminate content it could be a very soft and porous material. so it may not be repairable.
but a magnate would tell us if its lead or not....

 

[langfordja]

Looks like it is unanimous : do not repair. So I will search for a used keel. I am not ready to drop $2k because C22-Daydreamer is probably right (Might be able to get another boat as cheap as the keel alone).

You guys have been very helpful -- Thanks again.

And if you hear of a good deal on a used keel anywhere near Panama City FL, let me know.

 

[C22-Daydreamer]

On the Facebook group there is someone who has a 76 C22 for sale in South Carolina for $750.00 his name is Bruce McIntyre. I think the trailer is included.

 

[langfordja]

Thanks.. I see Bruce on Facebook. I will send him a message.

 

[Richie50]

Jacksonville $500 with trailer on Craigslist