Improving the Hunter 216

[Hunter216]

Hunter216,
You must be reading my mind.
Sailed twice last weekend with no wind! So no updates on tuning.
However Dropping the main is a pain with the size and girth of sail and fighting it for control and strapping bungee cords with ball ends around it is no fun.
I ordered a mast track slug to stop the main as the first step and was thinking about a Lazy Jack system
Did you design your own?
Sail fast,
John

Yes the mast slug is sort of a must. Interferes with the reef a bit on mine as the bottom two slugs prevent a pull down to the boom but not really a big deal.

I did McGuiver my LJ. I used 7/64 dyneema and some little plastic blocks I had laying around. If you want dimensions let me know.

 

[Hunter216]

Sailed twice last weekend with no wind!

Better get to work on than spinnaker turn those boring days into something!!

 

[John Welch]

"I did McGuiver my LJ. I used 7/64 dyneema and some little plastic blocks I had laying around. If you want dimensions let me know. "

Hunter216, Yes I am interested, as I believe many others here, in your enhancements of the 216, especially the Lazy Jack System to better control the mainsail when approaching our moorings or harbor. Additionally finding a mainsail cover that would surround and protect the flaked mainsail would be important!
Sail fast,
John

 

[Hunter216]

So Lazy Jack system that I lashed up.

I give credit to @Jackdaw and lots of others as it's modeled on what they had already accomplished and posted here. The dimensions on the boom were chosen to work around my existing sail cover. I suggest you lay it out on the ground by dropping the mast, attach the boom, raise the sail and lay out your sail cover so you get things in the right place.

I have yet to figure out an easy way to slack the system and pull it forward to the mast if I don't want to use it. The few times I've used it the batten tips have gotten hung up a bit so I'm thinking I might just store it for raising and then deploy before I drop. I left it up while sailing and it didn't seem to chafe or interfere with sail shape. The pieces are really light and slippery so I think that helps.

I used 100' of 7/64 Amsteel ( I had extra so once I figure out the pull forward part I will cut the excess off), 2 packs of Ronstan RF13101G-2 (4 blocks), a bunch of eyestraps, a cleat and some 1/8" bungee.

I started at the reef point on the mast (about 40") from the top.
To open the top I tied another block onto the top stay and eyestrapped the bungie to the mast (can't recall dimension but you can estimate from photo)
I came down 13' and tied a block on.
At the boom I eye strapped STARBOARD 2' back from the front of the boom extrusion, up through the block, back down to a small clip attached to another eye strap UNDER the boom about 7' back from the front, back up through the other block and back down to a cleat on PORT.

The routing was so the LJ cleat was on the same side as the mast cleat I use for the main halyard so if I'm raising or dropping its all on the same side. I used the clip so I can leave the system on the mast and easily remove the boom if I wish.

This is the section to hold the top open

A view of more of the system

Clip under the boom

 

[Hunter216]

A few other things that are not stock Hunter 216 bits.

Tiller clutch. http://www.wavefrontmarine.com/

Keepers to hold rudder up if your approaching shallow water

A bridle that holds the boom from slopping around. I moor and found that with the cockpit floor mounted mainsheet system the boom would thrash around quite a bit.

 

[curt in CO]

I’ve been wishing I had a traveler on the 216 but don’t want to give up the more important value (to me anyway) of the open cockpit and open transom, the main reasons I chose this boat in the first place.

What would be ideal for me would be a system that could utilize the current main sheet system, quickly attach and detach, have the ability to revert to the current floor mount mainsheet location if desired and somehow not interfere with handling the outboard.

I've been pondering this since i would like to have a traveler. All the the boats I have owned and those I have bareboat-chartered have all had "travelers". The most recent and interesting to me for a cruiser was a leaopard 40 catamaran. There were in effect, two separate mainsheet systems. Each was connected end-boom. Each side connected to a standing block on the arch, then looped to the mast base, then turned back to a multi-line clutch. Behind the clutch were multiple winches including two electric winches.

I could adjust the port mainsheet and the starboard mainsheet separately. With some thinking and some practice, I could place the boom about anywhere! Port or starboard. Up or down ..

Anyway, that is not what I came to say... I have an idea for the hunter 22/216 traveler that I've considered. I'll make another POST to explain it.

 

[Hunter216]

. I have an idea for the hunter 22/216 traveler that I've considered. I'll make another POST to explain it.

Awesome can’t wait!

 

[curt in CO]

What would be ideal for me would be a system that could utilize the current main sheet system, quickly attach and detach, have the ability to revert to the current floor mount mainsheet location if desired and somehow not interfere with handling the outboard. The existing stern cleats would be a good hull connection point as they already exist and should be solid enough to not tear out. I can’t visualize a bridle system that would not get tangled up in the Vara rudder - tiller handle???

How bout this..? ?
This has a name but I forgot it.

Starboard Side Sheet
Point A: connect a block with becket on the aft gunnel deck cleat. (use soft shackel)
Point B: mount two Double blocks (total four sheaves) to underside of boom at or near aft end.
Point C: Mount a double Ratchet block forward on underside of boom. located forward on the boom where ever you like. Or mounted using a track so it is movable.

Next:
Connect sheet to the becket at Point A. Eye splice here would be good.
Run sheet through sheave at Point B and back to Point A
Run sheet through sheave at Point A and back through block at Point B
Run sheet forward along boom to point C
Bring sheet tail down through Point C. This is the starboard working tail.

Port Side Sheet:
Above is for ONLY ONE SIDE. So repeat the above for the other side -- utilizing the remaining Double block at Point B and double block at .Point C

=================================================
The above configuration meets Hunter216's wish to utilize the existing aft deck cleats:

BUT.. I think that makes the connection points (POINTs A) too far apart. Perhaps a better location for POINT A is an Eye Strap mounted on the top or side of the seat.

This is the same concept as the mainsheet system I had on a 40' Leapord Cat. It took no time at all to learn having separate mainsheets for Starboard trim and Port trim. This can give you the same motion as a traveler -but without a traveler. You use the active sheet for trim angle - the lazy sheet for leech tension/sail shape.

If the mainsheet tails dangling from the boom are offensive, you could run the sheets forward to the mast, then turn them back to the cockpit. You could even use a cuddy-top ST Winch there, I suppose.

 

[curt in CO]

 

[Hunter216]

How bout this..? ?
This has a name but I forgot it.

Starboard Side Sheet
Point A: connect a block with becket on the aft gunnel deck cleat. (use soft shackel)
Point B: mount two Double blocks (total four sheaves) to underside of boom at or near aft end.
Point C: Mount a double Ratchet block forward on underside of boom. located forward on the boom where ever you like. Or mounted using a track so it is movable.

Next:
Connect sheet to the becket at Point A. Eye splice here would be good.
Run sheet through sheave at Point B and back to Point A
Run sheet through sheave at Point A and back through block at Point B
Run sheet forward along boom to point C
Bring sheet tail down through Point C. This is the starboard working tail.

Port Side Sheet:
Above is for ONLY ONE SIDE. So repeat the above for the other side -- utilizing the remaining Double block at Point B and double block at .Point C

=================================================
The above configuration meets Hunter216's wish to utilize the existing aft deck cleats:

BUT.. I think that makes the connection points (POINTs A) too far apart. Perhaps a better location for POINT A is an Eye Strap mounted on the top or side of the seat.



View attachment 169560

This is the same concept as the mainsheet system I had on a 40' Leapord Cat. It took no time at all to learn having separate mainsheets for Starboard trim and Port trim. This can give you the same motion as a traveler -but without a traveler. You use the active sheet for trim angle - the lazy sheet for leech tension/sail shape.

If the mainsheet tails dangling from the boom are offensive, you could run the sheets forward to the mast, then turn them back to the cockpit. You could even use a cuddy-top ST Winch there, I suppose.

Interesting concept plus a nice drawing for a one armed guy!!

I had a found (can’t recall where but I think it was posted somewhere on here) a somewhat similar drawing

Thanks for collaborating on this as I quite often get analysis paralysis! Great to have other perspectives.

The design is good from the perspective that you could adjust the boom a lot, you could detach a side and open the transom for swimming, the angles of the lines shouldn’t interfere with the motor operation, it would eliminate the need for my boom “slop” preventer as it’s redundant.

Things I’m not so sure about although I have to ponder more are: tacking would be more complicated as quite often now I don’t even touch the mainsheet, I like to throw the boom across when gybing so it would be hard to do that, quick and total release of mainsheet would be challenging (there are moments when I get a BIG gust that I didn’t anticipate and the boat heels sharply causing me to just step on the cam release), not sure about how the lazy sheet would cross the cockpit when on a run and friction in the system where there is lots of gear for the sheet to run through.

I get why the system would be great on a big cat overhead just not sure about our daysailor layout.

 

[Hunter216]

I’ve been working on a furling solution for the asymmetric spin. Not there as of yet but thought I would post a link for teference

Asym Top down furler

I’m considering adding a top down furler to the retractable bowsprit on my Hunter 216 as I feel it will allow me to use the spin on a more frequent basis. The photo below shows one rigged on the remodeled 216 H22-2 so it appears that this is feasible. I’ve only seen videos of the furlers so am...

forums.sailboatowners.com

 

[Hunter216]

I’ve been thinking of this as an option for an end of boom bridle solution as I think it would meet all of my criteria.

This would allow for the existing mainsheet centre of cockpit floor cleat / purchase mechanism to stay in place

I would add a multisheeve block on the boom just above it and reeve to it.

I would repurpose the two existing boom blocks, the non swivel to end of boom redirection and the swivel to one of the stern cleats clipped in place for easy removal just wouldn’t use the becket.

Add another new swivel block on the opposite stern cleat with a clip and tie off the bitter end of the sheet to the end of the boom.

Likely have to get a longer mainsheet as well.

Would have to rethink - learn how to trim the main with an end of boom setup but this would make even more space in the cockpit as there would only be one vertical floor to boom section.

@John Welch Do you have an view if this setup would affect the boomkicker / vang setup?

 

[Hunter216]

I mocked up the end of boom bridle setup using some spare blocks I had laying about. I decided that it might be better for the boom if I retained attachment at both bails as opposed to just one. I’m not sure how strong the boom is but with this setup I have just added to what is already there. A few photos below for illustration.

Existing center of floor rig

Red mainsheet routing of new system

Boom out

Transom open for swimming position by moving one of the blocks on the cleats

I didn't sail the boat as the blocks and their attachment weren't "sailing ready" but my initial impression is positive. I'm pretty sure the boom could be pulled closer to the centerline of the boat and the mainsheet has more of a vang effect as the downward force is at the end of the boom (not sure if this is a good thing or not as I haven't sailed a boom end mainsheet before??) The bridle will never do what a cross bar traveller would but as I have said I don't want one of those on the boat to retain the openness of the cockpit.

The boom out position doesn't feel like it crowded the cockpit although it does cut off the aft corner a bit but it's really far aft.

The line running straight across the stern was a concern as it might have interfered with the motor operation but it seems fine.

The transom open swim position has the added benefit of holding the boom off to one side compared to center mount so less chance of hitting your head as you climb out of the water. This position could also be used if you were motoring.

The gybe position where I tend to throw the boom over causes a little drag as the mainsheet has to run through the aft blocks on the cleats a bit (may actually be a good thing as it would slow the boom down) A little more care would need to be taken to ensure the bridle "triangle" section didn't snag on the tiller.

Comments welcome as always.

 

[curt in CO]

Reply to Hunter216

I read your latest no-traveler bridle design idea above with great interest. You did a wonderful job of setting up the mock up and explaining the complexities. I have to debate you on several of the points you made.

Not only am I still struggling with one-handed typing – our internet service was down for two full days! ! Lesson learned: Do Not break your wrist in the middle of the short Colorado sailing season.

My debate premise is that the no-traveller design that I sketched out above is better. My replies to your comments below explain why.

"I'm pretty sure the boom could be pulled closer to the centerline of the boat and the mainsheet has more of a vang effect as the downward force is at the end of the boom (not sure if this is a good thing or not as I haven't sailed a boom end mainsheet before??)"

Actually I’m pretty sure your bridle would not pull the boom farther to windward than your current floor-mounted mainsheet.. Not a bit if my acumen with vector geometry is intact.

" The bridle will never do what a cross bar traveller would but as I have said I don't want one of those on the boat to retain the openness of the cockpit. "

I’m still thinking that my version would allow moving the boom to any position that could be accomplished with a conventional traveller. At the extreme, it could move the boom to windward past the center line. So no need to compromise on having a “traveller”.

Also, with my setup there are no connections to the floor at all. The only hazard remaining is the boom overhead.

" Thanks for collaborating on this as I quite often get analysis paralysis! Great to have other perspectives.

The design is good from the perspective that you could adjust the boom a lot, you could detach a side and open the transom for swimming, the angles of the lines shouldn’t interfere with the motor operation, it would eliminate the need for my boom “slop” preventer as it’s redundant. "

Additionally, ducking past the transom could be accomplished without unhooking the sheet from the gunwale cleat. There is no horizontal line between the cleats.

" Things I’m not so sure about although I have to ponder more are: tacking would be more complicated as quite often now I don’t even touch the mainsheet, I like to throw the boom across when gybing so it would be hard to do that, quick and total release of mainsheet would be challenging (there are moments when I get a BIG gust that I didn’t anticipate and the boat heels sharply causing me to just step on the cam release), not sure about how the lazy sheet would cross the cockpit when on a run and friction in the system where there is lots of gear for the sheet to run through. "

Seems to me that a “crash tack” (or any tack for that matter) can be done by grasping and throwing off BOTH of the sheets. Or probably without touching the sheets at all till the tack is completed. No need to select one or the other. After the tack, the new lazy sheet could be pulled in a bit. And the new active sheet could be trimmed as needed with no rush. You should be able to grasp both the stbd and port sheets together for tacking and gybing. Only handle them separately for trimming.

Your bridle does not seem to have capability for adjusting sail shape. That seems the most important benefit of a traveller. I think mine could position the boom anywhere that a traveller does.

One flag to consider with both our designs in the additional length of rope needed in the mainsheet system. There is more drag past more sheaves with both ideas than a straight floor mounted approach. I don’t think that will be a problem, especially if minimum size (light) rope is used. This could also be compensated by attaching to the boom farther forward. Nothing says it must be at the end of the boom.

Finally, I cannot see where your design improves over the stock floor-mounted mainsheet system because it does not appear to yield any advantages that come with travelers.

Now, can I coax you mock up my design?

I'd sure like to hear from someone who has used my proposal. I guess I could try it after I again have the use of two hands. It appears that a test could be set up without drilling any holes.

Regards,
-curt

 

[Hunter216]

I’m sure we could debate this forever but let’s just say mine is better

Seriously I can see the merits of what you are suggesting and it would have a lot of influence on the main. You don’t mention how you would cleat the system and wonder if this might be a fix for that aspect. I came across this when I was looking at spin furler systems.

https://www.seldenmast.com/files/1380900838/597-120-E.pdf

During the one season I’ve sailed the 216 there are two things I would like to have more control over.Mostly I’m fairly content with the simple centre of floor rig Henderson designed into the boat.

1) the ability to depower the main in certain conditions and points of sail (twist) when the wind gets up or it’s gusty singlehanding the big roachy main is a handful.

2) light air efficient pointing.(main closer to centre) after all who doesn’t want to go faster!

A very important thing to me to retain is the ability to release the mainsheet instantaneously when things get dicey.

 

[curt in CO]

I’m sure we could debate this forever but let’s just say mine is better

Seriously I can see the merits of what you are suggesting and it would have a lot of influence on the main. You don’t mention how you would cleat the system and wonder if this might be a fix for that aspect. I came across this when I was looking at spin furler systems.

I would say we have covered the topic. Other readers might think we beat it to death.

I like the double cam cleat picture. Thanks. i was thinking a dual side-by side or just two cam cleats.
Researching this has given me a bit of curiosity. I might just experiment with it. Good news is that it would not require any harm to the stock system. Just a matter of hooking up one or the other. I might buy some smaller cordage for the sheet itself.

-c

 

[curt in CO]

I’m sure we could debate this forever but let’s just say mine is better

Seriously I can see the merits of what you are suggesting and it would have a lot of influence on the main. You don’t mention how you would cleat the system and wonder if this might be a fix for that aspect. I came across this when I was looking at spin furler systems.

I would say we have covered the topic. Other readers might think we beat it to death.

I like the double cam cleat picture. Thanks. i was thinking a dual side-by side or just two cam cleats.
Researching this has given me a bit of curiosity. I might just experiment with it. Good news is that it would not require any harm to the stock system. Just a matter of hooking up one or the other. I might buy some smaller cordage for the sheet itself.

-c

 

[SkookumZac]

If you're going thru the effort to convert to end boom sheeting then just rig you up a soft traveling bridle:

-Z

 

[Hunter216]

If you're going thru the effort to convert to end boom sheeting then just rig you up a soft traveling bridle:
View attachment 169744

-Z

Interesting but I can't quite figure out all of the routing. Could you post other photos please.

Looks like the solid white acts as a tensioned roller for the system to move port and starboard on. (I believe I'm correct on that part but not sure how that is connected to the hull?)

Looks like mainsheet in/out is connected to ring with a snap shackle. (I know I'm correct on that part)

The mostly white with red fleck tackle is where things are a bit fuzzy for me. The two single blocks attached to the ring are part of the port/starboard adjuster (not sure how this part of the line is attached to the hull?). The line then leads to another single block on PORT and I assume STARBOARD (neat sign BTW!) attached to a custom made fixed point on the gunwale and then downward to ?????

 

[curt in CO]

Nice, Skookum.

This seems to have all the functionality of a standard traveler. Clever. But your bridle lacks the feature that breaks your shin when you stumble in to it.

Another thing - it does not appear to be expensive enough. I just can't trust marine products that I can buy without a bank loan. $$

Nonetheless, may I ask a couple questions?

1 Those mounting blocks on the Gunwale get quite a load between the mainsheet and tensioned "track" line. I assume this is a custom installation. Any advice regarding the stress there? Are you aware of others using this? Or a production SV that uses it?

2. I see your mainsheet has a 3:1 purchase. Do you find that adequate or would you recommend a stronger purchase?